| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
One of the key SDA arguments for the continued observance of the 7th-day Sabbath is that there is no Scriptural authority for a change from Saturday to another day. Au contrair, mon frer! I offer Hebrews 4:4-10 as indisputable Scriptural proof that God changed the Sabbath day from the 7th day to TODAY: Hbr 4:4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh {day:} "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; Hbr 4:5 and again in this {passage,} "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST." Hbr 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, Hbr 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." Hbr 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. Hbr 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. Hbr 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. "...another day after that." "...Again fixes a certain day, TODAY" Ellen and Joseph Bates can say whatever they want about Sabbatarianism, I'll take what Scripture has to say over both of them any day of the week. Thank God in Christ for removing the blinders! | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Freeatlast, Isn't that just so clear? When I figured out the SDA church was false, one of the first things I asked God was, "What do you want me to do with the Sabbath?" I had already checked out the SD Baptists, SD Church of God and I wasn't impressed....He led me to Hebrews 4 and it was like a big light bulb went off in my head! I had read that passage plenty of times but in my own understanding. When I bothered to ask God what He thought He just showed me! Just like James 1:5 says. Isn't it the most amazing thing that the God of the universe, the Omnipotent, Mighty, Righteous God that created everything is that interested in us to show us the truth just for asking? Glory!  | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Amen! When we studied Hebrews two years ago, that TODAY suddenly made complete sense for the first time. It's amazing! Colleen | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
Sabra, I love that, "when I bothered to ask God what He thought, He just showed me." When I went to my one and only Adventist Bible study, one of the ladies suggested we all fast and pray for God to show us what the truth is, so I did, and He showed me very quickly that Adventism was wrong. Probably not what she intended :-) Interestingly enough, all the other non-Adventists except one at that study also eventually came to the conclusion that it was wrong too, even the ones who were pretty conviced it was right at the time. I wonder if the Adventists present took their own advice seriously. Or do they not bother to pray, because they already know they are right? Any thoughts? Doc | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Doc, I can almost assure you that they did not take their own advice. Adventists are conditioned to believe that "they have the truth." Therefore, there is no need to fast and pray for confirmation. That is not to say that Adventists are not a praying people. However, they would be much more inclined to fast and pray that God would reveal the truth to non-Adventists. Its funny (not really), but when I was in Adventism, the thought that we could be wrong never entered my mind--even though I had difficulty with some of our teachings. Doug | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
When I was in the church they spoke often of the text rich and have need of nothing refering to the other churches. Hmm after I left it was more for them I think. I believed with all my heart that that was the truth and no one but us knew it. I did question how all this would change when I met many wonderful christians who were not SDA. That of course was explained at the end they would see the truth. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
You know, I have read that Hebrews text with B and he just says that Joshua didnít get them the law Moses brought it down, so it couldnít possibly talk about the 10 commandments. He said Moses wasnít even mentioned in the text ... and the fact that Moses is talked about at the end of chapter 3 is a mute point. He also focuses only on the point that it says there is still a Sabbath rest. He completely ignores the word ìtodayî, even when I emphasize it over and over. He just jumps to Matthew 24-25 where Jesus refers to a future Sabbath. I guess it really does require something more than just reading the words on the page.... | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, indeed, Melissa. It takes much more than just reading the words. The fact is that Matthew 24 is nowhere near conclusive about any ìfuture Sabbath.î The parallel passage in Mark 13 does not even mention the Sabbath. Rather it reiterates the ìwinterî aspect. There are several well-founded interpretations of that passage, which do not support the ìfuture Sabbathî type of over specification. Was Jesus indicating that Sabbath observance would exist at the Fall of Jerusalem? Yes, but He did not say who would observe it. We know, in retrospect, that the Jews were observing the Sabbath at that time as they are today, but that says nothing about Christians. It would be similar to me cautioning you not to remove the veil from a Muslim woman in Saudi Arabia. You would do well to heed that warning, but that does not imply that I am endorsing the requirement of women to wear veils. I am sure your husband would not likely see my point. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Melissa, Not that it will make a bit of difference, but you need to get "B" to look at the broader context of the book. All the way throughout the book of Henrews the overriding message is that "Jesus is better." He is better than the Angels, He is better than Moses, He is better than the Sabbath, and He is Better than the Old Covenant. Instead of looking at scripture to prove or disprove a point, it is more important to look at it to see what is the point the author was trying to make. We have made it an issue of "a day," but I assure you he had a much broader message in mind. Once he is able to understand that, then he will be able to see that Hebrews 3 and 4 are inseperable. Hebrews 4 begins with the word "therefore," which means, "in light of what I just said." In the same way that the Children of Israel were not able to enter into God's rest (the land that He had promised to give them), we cannot enter into the rest that He has promised to give us unless we cease from our works (to save ourselves). The other thing that you might point out to him is that the word Sabbath as used throughout the Bible (esp the New Testament) means "to cease." However, in this one instance ( the only instance in the Bible in fact), the word used is Sabbatismo (sp), which means "a spiritual rest. A type of heaven." He will not see this until the SPirit sees fit to remove the blinders from his eyes. About the only thing you can do is ask him to explain Hebrews 3 and 4 in context. Why would the writer all of a sudden jump to a discussion about "keeping a day," when all along he has been talking about something entirely different. The one thing above all to keep in mind is that it is not your job to convince anyone. You will save yourself a lot of frustration and you will experience tremendous freedom. The God we serve is big enough to handle "B." Hope this helps. Doug | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I am always needing to remind myself of that (the not my job part). He seems to be fighting harder since I have been trying to let it go to drag me into fights and then I get mad at myself when I fall for it. He says Iím not trusting God to lead our lives. ìGod can work miracles.î I always remind him that what he means is God can change me if Iíll let him, because we already know he (b) has all the truth and needs no changing. I keep wondering if heíll ever understand what he is really saying. On one hand, he says SDAs believe there are other Christians outside Adventism and itís no big deal Iím not, but on the other hand, he can only worship in an SDA church. I get whiplash when my head spins that fast. One minute weíre okay, next weíre not quite good enough.... Iím not sure how it goes in their services, but he claims that on Saturday a number of people stopped him and asked to pray with him about our issues. Now, whether Iím on the list of ìlostî people to be converted or whatever, I donít know. He didnít go into how everyone in his church knows we have ëissuesí. But he considered it a wonderful ìspiritual experienceî. He says that not a single person prayed that I would ìsee the light and become SDAî, but am I wrong to think that would be their expectation? I know his sister-in-law was adament that he could never leave the SDA church. (In the beginning, when my ignorance was still flapping, I said we could find a Saturday church that didnít have Ellen White, if the day was the issue... That balloon didnít even rise off the ground. It was lead-filled. She said the family would never support that.) He discounts the whole conversation. I think heís either blind or thinks I am. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Melissa, does "B" go to an adult sabbath school class? The reason I was asking is that (some of you may know this), but the Sabbath School Quarterly for this Quarter July-September is called "Sanctuary Themes - The book of Hebrews". I don't know if he is one to study the Sabbath School lesson or just go to class and listen, but it's full of EGW comments and 1844 theology. I guess it would also depend on the person teaching the class. I know at least the few times that I sat in on an adult class (I'm usually in one of the kids' classes) there are a few lone souls who say "the Bible and the Bible only" or "what about salvation by grace alone." I scanned through the book to see if any mention was made about Hebrews 4 , but I couldn't find anything. I don't read too much of it because I get very agitated with it. Anyway if he is going to SS class or studying the lesson he's getting a very Adventist slant on the book of Hebrews. When my heart was very much into Adventism, every Christian I came in contact with I would think " how can I introduce them to the sabbath?" So your are not wrong to think that thier expectation was to eventually get you in..... Then I would worry about how to talk to them about diet, sunday law etc. without offending them." In other words "i've got good news! You're not saved after all. you still have to be in bondage to the law!" It wasn't something I really wanted to do, I just thought I had to do it. Now I find myself telling people (in the proper circumstances) about the wonderful saving grace of Jesus and I do it because I can't keep it in. back to that CD I like: One of the songs says-- "If we really have been given a life that will never end. And If we have been filled with living hope we're gonna over flow And if God's love is burning in our hearts we're gonna glow There's just no way to keep it in." S.C. Chapman "Live out Loud" I never felt "over flowing" or "glowing" with the sda (I first typed sad, then changed it) message. I guess deep down inside I felt it REALLY was A SAD MESSAGE. Not good news at all. I'm so thankful for this forum that I can finally express all these thoughts that have been building up for such a long time. One of these days i'll be completely out, but I'm waiting for the Lord's direction. I'm a Gideon type of person. I need several huge billboard type signs that the time is right. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Leigh, You are correct that Hebrews is the topic of the study for this quarter. Yu can find the lessons on the net at SS Lessons. The page I directed you to has the outline for the quarter at the bottom. You can click on the link and see what chapters are being studied for that particular week. I have two observations: 1. In typical Adventist fashion, they are not going through the chapters in sequential order. This was always a source of frustration for me when I was an Adventist. Maybe I am too linear, but I always assumed that the writer worte the book in the order he did for a reason. 2. Second, and may be the reason for #1, is that there is absolutely no discussion of chapters 3 and 4. Can you believe that? Maybe they are covered in other lessons, but they certainly did not warrent a full weeks study. I wonder why? Anyway, hope this helps. At least Melissa can see what "b" is studying. Doug | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Leigh I will pray that you see that billboard. I would like to talk more here is my e-mail I hope you write. tbawgus@hotmail.com. I first saw error in Ellen then started studying from the WWchurch of God and they have a great site about the commanments and sabbath I studied the covenanats I searched night and day for a month. I was sick at most of what I found out. The SDA always had me think they know their Bibles better then others. I have come to the conslusion they are very ignorant of many things in the Bible and they just do not understand what they read because of what they have been taught. God showed me more in that month then I had learned in 27 years of the church. I read all the bad stuff Ellen would write about people who found her out but they never show you that part. I just think it is so sad that so many people have had to live by her and I think she was a bit nuts. Well I guess I better stop venting. Hope everyone has a good night. And lets pray for each other and our family and friends who are still in the cult. Terry | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doc, God will show us if we ask. I had a friend, and I've posted this before, who I met just when I was coming out of Adventism and searching for myself and I had asked God to let me know for sure--you know how we doubt. Well, she was a strong christiand and told me that she had attended a revelation seminar and almost joined the SDA church. She prayed about it a lot and was praying in particular in her car a few days just before she was supposed to join the church. She asked God to tell her if she was making the right decision. She heard 2 Peter 3:14 and didn't know what it was, then she heard it again so she pulled off to get her bible out and see what it said: It says: "Therefore beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from you won steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked. 2 Peter 14-17 Still gives me chills! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Melissa asked: ìHe says that not a single person prayed that I would ìsee the light and become SDAî, but am I wrong to think that would be their expectation?î Here is a little insight I gained in listening to my wife and her fellow members talk about ìoutsiders:î It makes absolutely no difference what they said out loud. It makes absolutely no difference if they used ìstandard Christianî terminology or avoided identifiable SDA terminology. Here is the clue to the answer to your question.
Well, what is the issue?!? Answer: You are not SDA. ënuff said. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Terry,I think the reason I was ingnorant is because I thought " We have the truth. We have a prophet from God. I know the Bible stories. I don't need to read the Bible because I already know everything I need for salvation." "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing(We have a prophet from God, we have the truth); and knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."Rev. 3:17 I thought that I knew the Bible pretty well. In school I would do well on Bible quizes and trivia. I was put in my place as an adult when I was talking to a christian coworker about the Sabbath (this was 13 years ago). She quoted the text about not judging about the sabbath days. I didn't even know it was in the Bible. That evening I went home and looked it up. In school it seemed that we learned the Bible stories and Revelation, but we didn't get into the epistles very much. We might learn a verse that would support the sda view . At least that's my experience. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Leigh, very good point. The epistles are largely ignored in Adventist schools and Sabbath Schools. Even though colleges usually offer a class in "Pauline Letters", they are usually upper division and not part of the general ed religion requirements. Most people get through 16 years of Adventist education without reading very much Paul at all except for certain proof texts to support SDA doctrines. I still hear the excuse, "Even Peter said Brother Paul was hard to understand!" when some people are confronted with texts from Paul's epistles that DO NOT support Adventism. Even though I had read through them as an Adventist, I could not believe the riches of the epistles when I began studying them during and after our leaving process. I'm still overwhelmed at what we just didn't study! Praise God for his call on Paul's life! Colleen | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
I have been reading this thread with great interest and now I have a few minutes to add a message. Colleen, I think it's interesting that SDA's would say Paul is so hard to understand when they think they totally understand Daniel and Revelations! Leigh, like you, I have been involved in the children's divisions so much since I joined the church, that I never read the quarterly. I'm going to have to look at this one more closely after reading this thread! I absolutely agree with what others have said; Adventists talk out of both sides of their mouths. They say there are Christians in other churches, but view them as second-rate because they don't have the "Truth" ( which means the Sabbath) Like you, Melissa, I've asked my husband to consider going to another Sabbath-keeping church, but he wouldn't consider it because he firmly believes the SDA church is the only true church!! Last night my husband was going on and on about homosexuality. As maybe you all have heard, the Episcopalian church convention in Minneapolis is considering electing an openly gay priest as a bishop. During our evening prayers last night, my husband asked for a curse on these people. I was totally shocked; wouldn't a Christian pray for this priest and the convention delegates rather than to ask God to curse them? He (my husband)is gearing up to do a "Bible Propecy" seminar in September. He has all of D. Batchelor's lesson studies on CD. He made me and my 2 kids sit down and go through one with him last night. It was about law and grace. You can imagine all of the texts, just like sound bites, which point to the fact that the 10 commandments (and particularly the Sabbath) are still to be upheld. There was even a quote from Billy Graham saying that we should still follow the 10 commandments (but didn't give the reference.) Can anyone give me the book, chapter and verse that says the law will not change one tittle or jot? That was one of the verse cited and I know they didn't give the complete verse "till all shall be fulfilled" | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Just a note. Look at verse 17. Do you know what ìthe law and the prophetsî means to a first century Jew? The Law means the five books of Moses: Genesis through Deuteronomy, not just the Ten Commandments. The Prophets means most of the rest of the Old Testament. So, in light of the context, if one asserts that the ìtillî has not yet happened, Jesus is saying that every last law, sacrifice, priesthood, holy day, ablution, offering, specific punishment, food law, and anything else God commanded in the first five books of the Bible must be done exactly without any deviation from the literal meaning of the words in every little detail . Do one thing wrong and you will never enter heaven. Notice there is no mention of repenting here. Later, in chapter 19, Jesus reveals a hint of the solution to this problem:
Mr. Batchelor has no concept of what the verse is saying in Matthew 5. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I have talked to B about Matthew 5 several times. As others, he uses it to ìproveî the SDA version of the law is in affect. So, I pulled the whole context and pointed out the fact that the law AND THE PROPHETS, which he usually eliminated, was our OT. Then I asked if he thought Jesus was a success or failure as to why he came. Because he came to ìfulfillî the law. So, if he succeeded, the law was fulfilled. period. As usual, I didnít get a response. I donít knowwhat he ds with these conversations because I just study all the time for our conversations. B used to teach the youth, but he commented recently that he is not doing it. I donít know what he does. Historically, when I have pointed out that there are more EGW quotes in their quarterlys than scripture, he only said that a lot of people donít like the quarterlys. No matter what, he defends them. Always. |
