| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
My father listens to Bob George's radio program daily and he called me to let me know that today (31 July) he had on a guy who is a former SDA and now part of Bob George's staff. He didn't catch his name but the broadcast will be available online sometime tomorrow. My dad said something about he gave his testimony, which was very good. On the Web go to www.realanswers.net. Click the link at the top bar that says "Live Radio". A new window will open and if you scroll down you'll see a list of links to past broadcasts. Since it's not up yet (I'll update when it is) I don't know what it will display as, it it will have the date on there, 7/31. Whenever it is up I'll take a listen and let you know what I think. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
His name is Richard Peifer I listen to Bob every time I have the chance also. It was interesting how I came to find him. After my daughter decided that this religion her husband had found was not Biblically sound she came over one day and ran into the house saying turn your radio on to **** because there was a man talking about legalism and from then on I was hooked. I talked to my sister-in-law about him and she oh yes she had been introduced to him thru a friend when she became a new believer in Christ and this friend had given her a book Classis Christainty and she let me read it. I read it in 2 or 3 sittings because it was corrobarting every thing that I had been learning in the Bible alone since I had been an intense study to find out why I went to chruch on Sunday. I found that yes the Sabbath of OT and some of the time before Jesus death, burial and resurrection was on Saturday but now all things have changed and Revealation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Now why would I still continue to worship on a day that Jesus was in the tomb. Rather I decided that Sunday would be a much better day to worship my Lord since it is the day of resurrection and the day of Penetecost when His Spirit was released to all and the clencer for me was that the disciples worshipped Him the first time on Sunday. Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Well anyway that is they way I came to listen to Bob George. He has some excelllant studies on his website which are total Bible. Let no man tell you what they think the Bible says as Bob George makes statement to many times which includes himself. You have been given a spirit by the Living God to do this yourself and if you ask He will guide you to all truth. In HIS HOLY Precious Name, Carol | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Thanks Carol! I've been refreshing the website all morning waiting to see if it might be up yet. I'm anxious to hear it. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
My wife and I were greatly blessed by Richard Peifer's testimony on the People to People Ministries archived radio broadcast for July 31, 2003 (www.realanswers.net). I could not hold back my tears as I listened and identified with his former perfectionism/legalism. This program is heard throughout the US and Canada (also via Internet radio worldwide). The program dealing with Sabbath rest is also most excellent. Thanks, Gatororeo, for alerting us to listen to this testimony. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Speaking of Sabbath rest, Richard and I walked into the adult evening meeting at Lake Hume Christian Camp last Monday and heard a talk about keeping the Sabbath given by the senior pastor of the Fullerton, CA, EV Free church! We nearly fell over! He used the creation story and the 10 Commandments to make his point. He stated that all of nature works on a 7-day cycle, and the land is even on a 7-year cycle as taught in the OT. Only today, he said, we use fertilizer instead of a sabbatical rest for the land. (That seemed like a complete non-sequiter to me.) He did not say we should keep the seventh day, but he did say people need to stop for a day every week and leave their work behind. (I don't disagree with that.) And he said people were in sin if they didn't observe Sabbath rest, meaning every seven days. We made an appointment to talk to him, and he really was gracious to us. He was a bit taken aback and said if he had known he had former SDAs in his audience, he would have clarified that Sabbath-keeping was not a salvation issue. We talked for about 1 1/2 hours, and he stated that he would talk about the subject differently in the future, clarifying the non-legalistic, not-salvation nature of such observance. While we don't really agree completely in our conclusions, he did see that the way he spoke about the Sabbath would be problematic for many people. He also said he would like to have Dale Ratzlaff's book, Sabbath in Christ, which we will be sure he gets. Interestingly, he did say he grew up Baptist, and I think that in some ways his early understanding of the commandments colored his view. Altogether the entire event felt like it was ordained to happen. I'm quite sure that if he doesn't have Adventists or former Adventists in his large church now, he will eventually. There seem to be many who are searching and trying out "Sunday churches". We praise God that he had our paths cross that pastor's. Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Colleen, When I was first beginning my journey out of Adventism, I would attend church with my wife and kids on Saturday, then often I would go for worship on my own at a nearby AOG on Sunday morning. I loved this church (Christ Place) because of its dynamic worship and awesome praise music. I had thought a couple of times that perhaps when my family was ready to leave Adventism we could go there. Then one Sunday one of the associate pastors preached in the absence of the head pastor. The sermon was on the proper observance of ěthe Sabbath dayî (meaning Sunday to this pastor) and the keeping of the 4th commandment. I felt a knot develop in my stomach as I listened to this sermon that was so similar to so may I had grown up with. I literally felt sick when he began to speak on the forth commandment and stated, ěMake no mistake about it, this command is still in full force todayî. For the life of me I couldnít understand how an otherwise seemingly reasonable person could so forcefully hammer home the binding nature of the fourth commandment all the while applying it to a different day than specified in the commandment. This approach makes no sense at all to me. I thought, ěSomeone needs to sit down with this guy and talk about the covenants with himî. I am ashamed to say I did not do as you did and schedule an appointment with him. I am very impressed that you followed Godís leading and spoke with the pastor you heard. It must have taken some courage. Who knows the far-reaching impact this may have over time. I have to say that the sermon I heard significantly soured me on that particular church (perhaps unfairly). Iím over my doubts and such regarding the binding nature of Sabbath day. I believe I am now past the fears that were drilled into me begining in cradle role, but I still bristle when sabbatarianism (Sunday or Saturday variety) is brought up. It will take me a few more years to get over the negative feelings the word "Sabbath" sometimes invokes. The single biggest healing technique for me is to, in my mind, add the words ěin Christî. I am in the true Sabbath in Christ. I have true rest in Christ. I am justified in Christ. I am saved in Christ. The shadow was a day; the reality is a Person. Chris | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Unfortunately, this is what I was mentioning about my early experiences with some Protestant preachers. I am afraid that the Puritan legalistic doctrines continue to pop up from time. Frankly, I have come to appreciate the problematic nature of Puritanism to a large degree through my contact with the SDA doctrines. One begins to understand more about why Adventism, Mormonism, JW, CS and others arose when one understands the Puritan roots in this country (USA). I am glad this pastor was willing to consider your input to the degree he did. His congregations are likely at greatest risk for diversion to Adventism if he continues to overlay this type of legalism on the Gospel. Likely, many congregations hear a half-and-half theology. This leads to a weakness of belief easily exploitable by ědenomination raiders.î | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
My pastor in my current church did a series on the 10 commandments when he first came a couple of years ago, and I have to tell you that even I, having never been an SDA, just having argued over it so much, got a knot in my stomach. I was so thankful that B hadnít chosen that day of all days to be his first visit to my church. I think I will do as Colleen is going to do and get him a copy of the new Sabbath in Christ (since I only have the Sabbath in Crisis) and explain my concerns for how he framed up his study of the 4th. Though he did not claim it binding on Christians, just a standard (or example) of work-life balance, I still fear that he could have left any who may have been encountering SDAs at that time ěripe for the pickiníî. I had to get a tape and listen to it again later because I was just so ěfearfulî while he was talking. Almost dreading what he would say. I still donít understand why it bothered me so much. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Melissa, I believe the reason that Sabbath sermon bothered you so much is possibly two-fold: one, it taught works righteousness even if those words weren't directly spoken; and two, the Sabbath is a POWERFUL spiritual issue because the Sabbath day of the old covenant directly represented Jesus and his finished work. What more powerful symbol could Satan distort than Sabbath? Just look how Sabbath holds the place in the hearts of Adventists that the Holy Spirit is supposed to hold--the seal of God! Sabbath is a shadow of Christ. If I find Richard standing outside casting a long shadow at 4:00 P.M., an if I throw myself on the ground to grasp that shadow and hold onto it, I may feel the coolness that the shadow creates from the heat of the sun, but my arms and heart will be empty because I'm not standing up and embracing the real Richard! I'm still looking for the fulfillment, for the REAL THING. That exactly what people do when they turn from true rest in Christ--which, by the way, does keep us peaceful and calm even in the middle of work and even chaos--and claim a day in order to rest. They lie in the coolness of the shadow for a few hours, but when the shadow disappears for another week, they are again defenseless in the brutal sun of modern life. They struggle through the week, building up their stress and fatigue, and long for the shadow. Our older son Roy had a great thought as we discussed that Sabbath sermon we heard that night. We were telling the boys that the pastor taught the Sabbath as a form of spiritual discipline that we should do in order not to overwork ourselves and miss worshiping. Roy said (in his usual understated way), "There is the disciplined life, and then there is the surrendered life." That sentence, I thought, summed up the whole issue. Praise Jesus for being our Sabbath Rest! Colleen | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
The idea of Sunday as the Sabbath is still very strong among Welsh non-conformists. I have a good friend, who is the pastor of a Welsh-speaking Baptist church, and we talked about this. He was really not sure of this, so I was able to share about the Sabbath being a type of Christ (due to my SDA studies). I think it helped. He is actually a great guy, and a fantastic Bible teacher. This idea must come from Anglo-Saxon Puritanism. If the Welsh only knew, they would probably throw it out, as they are not too fond of the English. My friend said he heard of someone who took the swing out of the budgie's cage on Sundays, so it would not be able to do anything too frivolous on the Sabbath. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
That is just too funny, Adrian! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
The Pastor at the church I attend also preached a series on the ten commandments a while back. When he got to the fourth commandment, he approached it from the perspective that we need to have "margin" (like the white space on a page) in our lives. The Sabbath is the means by which God provided us margin. He went on to explain how the Children of Israel had been slaves in Egypt and were used to working seven days a week. The Sabbath was something God provided to guide them in their new found freedom. He did not necessarily preach Sunday Sabbatarianism, but he did say it is important to take a day of rest. For him, that day is Saturday, since he usually preaches four sermons on the Sunday when he is scheduled to preach (we have two teaching pastors). He also was not legalistic in the way that he said the day should be enjoyed. All of this is well and good, but I remember walking away feeling like he had totally missed the importance of the Sabbath. In fact, I would venture to guess that most Christians do not have a solid appreciation for what the Sabbath really means. The book Sabbath in Crisis is a must read for any Bible student who really wants to understand the significance of the Sabbath, but I fear that most Christians would not see it as a non-issue--akin to "straining at a gnat." If only they knew the wonderful message God presented through the Sabbath. Doug | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Dear All, the above posts are very, very good on the true nature of our Sabbath Rest---JESUS. I feel so blessed to realize the fulfillment of the rest--all the time--in Jesus. I like what your son said, Colleen; the "surrendered" life! And I see more clearly the distortion Satan uses with the Sabbath symbol. In fact, I just read (in the "Columbia Union Visitor", the newsletter of the Adventists in the states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, and some of Virginia) where a Baptist pastor in Ohio has now become an Adventist. His wife was one all along (except for a brief time when she met him), and they worshipped on different days for years until he has now switched to the "right" day of worship. So many do not see the difference in the Old and New Covenants! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Cindy I read that and thought to myself I should copy that and take it to church so all the people could see what is going on. Some people I meet do not know what SDA really believe since that is not a part they share about thmeselves. That being you are not really saved unless up know and keep the sabbath. Cindy are you from the area? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, I really agree with your assessment that most Christians do not realize the amazing blessing of true Sabbath rest in Christ. Isn't it interesting that Sabbath rest is perhaps the most consistently "missed" part of the gift of salvation? On the one hand we have people saying, "Observe a day so you can rest." On the other hand we have people believing the Sabbath is an Old Testament thing that has no bearing on us. Sabbath rest is the astonishing, "hidden" gift God reveals to those who surrender their lives to him instead of trying to "beat" themselves into obedience. Praise Jesus for Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
TerryK, We used to live back east; now are in Portland, OR. Will try and post more later. My son and his girlfriend are just arrived yesterday for a visit (from Lincoln, NE); and we hare heading out to the "Saturday Market" downtown and then to see the "Seabiscuit" movie. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Cindy, As a former departmental leader in the Carolina Conference, I well remember my proudly reporting that a Baptist minister had become a literature evangelist. In fact, I personally recruited him. The entire Conference Office personnel were excited. What I didn't report was that this "supply pastor" was very uneducated--not even proficient in the essentials of the Christian faith. In certain areas of this country, it is not uncommon to see a Baptist ministerial ordination certificate hanging in many homes. He turned out to be complete failure in the colporteur work. When he died not long thereafter, I gave his widow one of my suits to bury him in. They were desperately poor. Baptists come in many versions, even their pastors, so I am wondering if the pastor that recently became an SDA with his wife in Ohio is of a similar type. The SDA PR machine always overstates such cases. For example, I cannot viualize our well-trained Baptist ministers, here in Lincoln, Nebraska, becoming enslaved to the law of Moses. Some our Baptist ministers here hold doctorates in ministry. While exceptions are possible, it reminds me of the "supply pastor" I recruited to be a colporteur. The devout SDA readers of the Columbia Union Visitor will not entertain a mental picture as I described above. Due to my personal involvement and experience, I remain very skeptical of such stories--even their tithing stories. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
I was just talking with a X-SDA and we were talking about that. We could not see how anyone with a knowledge of the Bible could ever fall for their traps. They tell so many untruths. I love the one oh Biily Graham knows about the sabbath. Yes as a educated man he knows but knows that it is not for him so what is their point. They just love to jump on stories like these. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Are we to really believe that Billy Graham knows about the Sabbath, but refuses to teach (or keep) it? By Adventist escatology (sp) wouldn't his salvation be in jeopardy--"to him who knowest to do right, and doest it not, to him it is sin." Wouldn't it be more credible to say that he keeps the Sabbath, but doesn't teach it? What they are actually saying about him borders on slander. Doug | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
B has used both arguments on me...a ěbaptistî pastor who has become SDA and Billy Graham calls the 10 commandments the ëmoralí law. I said, but he doesnít go to church on Saturday, and he said ěI know and that really bothers me.î Eventually, he started called him the ěsainted Billy Grahamî in a sarcastic tone. Sounds like itís a familiar theme. |
