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Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
From having numerous conversations with SDA, I can tell you that they do not understand the Law. I too have been on www.carm.org trying in my feeble way to defend the Gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and I will quote Romans 10:4 over and over again to them and 2 Corinthians 3, which talks about the 10 commandments specifically being the ministry that brought death...they cannot comprehend it. They are looking to Moses for salvation instead of Christ. The veil is removed only when they look to Christ.

I have told them that in actuality, the Rabbi's have counted 613 commands in the Law. I have also tried to tell them that the Law is the Law, reguardless of whether you try to divide it into ceremonial or moral. Here is the standard reply..."does that mean it is ok to kill or steal?" Now come on, if you are a new creation in Christ and have been buried with him and are dead to the old self, are you going to go out and kill? And if you did, would that be able to separate you from the love of Christ and salvation? NO, if you are a believer and have accepted Christ, the Bible says NOTHING can separate us, we cannot be snatched from his hands.

Have you ever noticed how SDA have no assurance of salvation? That is so sad to me. And they will defened annihilation to the bitter end against the hope spoken of by Paul- being absent from the body is to be with Christ. Why? Why would you rather believe an obscure text in Ecclesiastes than the entire NT? I don't like to go there with them because I trust God to do whatever he wants with me. The Bible says that once we believe, we HAVE passed from death to life.

Melissa, I could go on...

Oh, out of the 10 in stone, EGW says the 4th shines with a halo around it. That is where they get that belief. It isn't biblical. If the 4th was so much more important (and if you look at the written Law, the Sabbath is grouped with the feasts days, pure ceremony!) why didn't God reveal this to us in his written word? Why didn't the Apostles preach the Sabbath and not Christ? (Like the SDA do).

And they have made eating and drinking a salvation issue. I too am involved in that discussion! What ever happened to eating by faith? What about plain scripture that declares all foods clean? They totally ignore this!

I am so glad you have such a close relationship with our Lord. Praise God you weren't sucked in. There is a person on the other forum who married an SDA and while he could care less about being a full-fledged SDA, she has joined whole heartedly. Really sad.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Melissa, What an insightful statement you made near the end of your post.


Quote:

Maybe someday, heíll get as serious about Christ as he is about being an Adventist, but I have learned that Iím not going to ìconvinceî him of anything.




That is the real problem, as I have seen it.

Here are a few sweeping generalizations which reflect some of what I have heard (keep in mind that these are all anecdotal and may not reflect the official or majority beliefs . . . then, on the other hand, they probably are.)

ìJesus died to justify the Law.î

What this means is that the only reason Jesus died at the Cross was to ìproveî that we could perfectly keep the Law (they mean 10 Commandments)

ìWe are saved by Grace through our belief, not by works, . . . BUT then we must work to obey lest we lose our salvation.î

So, in mathematical terms: (sorry, I was a math major)

Grace and Belief and not Works = Salvation
Lost Salvation = Salvation and not Works
Or
Lost Salvation =(Grace and Belief and not Works) and not Works
Eliminate the redundant ìnot Worksî
Lost Salvation = Grace and Belief and not Works
Substitute ìSalvationî for ìGrace and Belief and not Worksî
Lost Salvation = Salvation

Unnngh . . . headache . . . must . . . get . . . aspirin . . .
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
Let me take a wild guess. The passage in Acts that he told you about didn't happen to be Acts 10 (the story of Peter and Cornelius) did it?

As far as your other question about Exodus 20 is concerned, no your oyfriend is not alone. Adventist place this chapter on hallowed ground--to the exclusion of Deuteronomy 5 (or the rest of the law for that matter). The reason is that the 4th commandment, as stated in Exodus 20, supports their view of the Sabbath as a memorial of creation, and also allows them to interpret Revelation 14:7 as identifying them as the "Remnant Church."

The amazing thing about their interpretation of the meaning of the Sabbath is that it implies that God needs us to assauge His ego by acknowledging Him as our creator once a week. The memorial was supposedly instituted in the Garden, before sin even entered the picture. They will concede that it has a secondary meaning of symbolizing the rest that we have in Christ, but this is primarily lip service. For them it is predominantly a day that they cease from any secular work as a way of showing loyalty to God. It becomes "us" centered rather than "God" centered.

Doug
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Watch out Melissa.
For a SDA, to not raise a child in the "truth" constitutes child abuse. They may try to take him from you simply to make sure he is raised knowing the "truth" because they see their particular brand of Christianity as the only way to heaven. They will be seriously worried about his little soul.

I know you are already preparing him to know the truth...and God will protect him...I am just saying be careful. It isn't enough to know Jesus with them, they want him to know Ellen too. And they will be afraid he will take the Mark of the Beast if you take him to church on Sunday. When he is with them, they will do all they can to indoctrinate him.

Bless your heart, I feel for you. My kids are already indoctrinated, and I did it. I did a very good job making sure they knew Ellen and kept the Sabbath as they should. They attend SDA schools because my husband is still SDA and they have already bonded there. Imagine how I feel, now that the veil has been removed! My in-laws know about me too, and I know they feel very upset that I have left the "fold".

But we know this and can take heart, ALL things work for the good for those who love the Lord. He is able to keep us safe, amen?
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa wow you got it going on girl. I really enjoyed when you were talking about your relationship with God. I would love to talk more. If you would like to e-mail me at tbawgus@hotmail.com. Thanks praise God for his love and grace. Terryk
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here ar ea few samplings of discussions I have had with ìBî, which I will use for ìboyfriendî. As mentioned above, he has indeed told me that if the law is fulfilled then it must be okay to kill and steal. I asked him if he really knew ìSundayî Christians who said that, which he didnít. Then I said, fact is that Jesus said hate and some sort of anger is a sin...so if you canít be angry or hate, how can you possibly kill or steal from anyone? I tried to differentiate between the law of Moses and the law of Christ, but he insists they are the same thing. And he knows itís called the ministry of death, but that doesnít mean anything. Iíve talked about the veil being over the eyes of those looking to Moses, but all to deaf ears. My final remark (these are long drawn out conversations over much time) was then you must believe Christ failed in his reason for coming because he came to fulfill the law. He didnít respond to that one. I have pulled out the Bible during our conversations and simply quoted it, but he wonít look at one and he just responds with his catch phrases. One time, I told him to stop that the first 6 words he quoted were in deed scripture, but the last half of the phrase was EGW, not scripture. But he just doesnít hear a thing I say. Another former eventually told me that he would never listen to me because of what his religion teaches about me and ìmy kindî. More....

When I talked about being absent from the body, he tried to tell me Paul was talking about being in vision. I scoured the text again and found again that he hadnít even read it. There is nothing about visions in that text.

I have pointed out Romans 14 and Timothy where we are warned against people telling us to abstain from foods. No avail. Ironically, he goes to texts that are talking about sinning against the body in immorality to justify his eating habits. His statements changed over time, first saying he felt closer to God being a vegetarian to where he now claims it is ìunhealthyî to eat meat and occasionally says he is following Godís original diet. To which I reply that God called all food good when received with thanksgiving, but you say itís unhealthy? I also tell him Godís original clothes were non-existent, but I didnít know of any nudist SDAs. In fact, heís pretty strong about the ìmodestî dress ...

The passage in Acts was actually the one about David not yet ascending (2:34). He was trying to use the text to justify soul sleep. When I read farther in the text, I realized Peter was trying to point out that David had made the statement when he was still alive years earlier ... a fancy way to say David had made a statement that was about Christ in his time, so this wasnít new stuff. He acknowledged the context included that, but also said his view was correct too.

Heís tried telling me ìspiritî really should be translated breath, to which I replied so you think the ìHOLY SPIRITî is really HOLY BREATH? The greek words are the same. Again, more silence.

For ìBî anyway, the Sabbath is a day of self-indulgence. He can play computer games, but he canít plant flowers. He can ride bikes (which EGW prohibits in her writings), go swimming, go watch my son play soccer (in the afternoon of course) and drive a car anywhere he wants, but he canít ride the riding lawnmower in circles to cut the grass. When weíre traveling, he can eat at Subway or Burger King on a Saturday, but if weíre home, he canít. I even went to Wal-Mart one Saturday and he called on my cell to tell me my son wanted me to get something, but he never could bring himself to say he wanted me to buy something on the Sabbath. I enjoyed playing with hijm on that one. I just kept saying, ìso you want me to buy some xxx?î to which he kept replying that my son wanted me to. He can play games on his palm or reprogram his computer. He can burn CDs or copy tapes. He can play music, or do anything else he pleases, but donít look for him to pick up dirty dishes. He doesnít care about sundown on Fridays. Weíve gone out after dark plenty of Friday nights. And for him, the Sabbath starts to ìendî around 4:30, especially in the summer when he wants to go do something. Heíll generallly help around the yard after that hour, pulling weeds in the garden, etc. And by 6, heíll even go out to dinner. Even in the summer when itís light until almost 9. It is tragic to see. I think it might even be respectable if he were truly doing something ìforî God, but heís not. He does whatever he feels like doing and seems to use it to get away with being lazy. His cats vomit on the floor, and he wonít clean it up. I could go on, but you get the point. I suspect others probably do it differently.


But I did it all wrong, how I challenged him I mean. I was sarcastic and blunt, not realizing the depth of sacredness with which he held these views and how ìsatanicî I must have appeared to him for my response to him. I thought the exaggeration with sarcasm might show how silly his theology was, but I was absolutely in error on that. I used to really have fun pointing out EGWs crazy statements. I actually read her writings first, long before I ever met a ìformerî or knew they existed (we donít have ìformer baptistsî in the same way). I had written a 20-page document with some of her most outrageous quotes which I had copied and pasted from her website where her writings can be searched with ease and pointed to how they contradicted nature and scripture...no avail. One of my favorites was ìbetween meal snacks cause disease and deathî. Of course, he tried to defend it. He told me ìstudies had been done which proved it causes problemsî. I said ìdeath and disease?î He refused to say she made a mistake. I cited the one about Jerusalem not being built up again, he redefined her to mean it wouldnít be a world power again, to which I said...îitís in the news every day, but itís no big deal??î more silence. I doubt anything would be any different had I been more respectful in my approach, I was just ignorant.

I have had some concern that his religion might fund a custody battle, but in Kansas, where we live, it is almost impossible to get sole custody. A friend testified in a case where the mother was practicing witchcraft and the judge said it was personal preference and inadmissable. I had tried to get sole custody of my kids in my divorce because of my exís activities, but the courts just donít allow it here. My lawyer told me that fewer than 5% of the parents win sole custody in Kansas and you have to have commited crimes against the kid(s). Plus heís not a US citizen. I am hoping that could play in my favor. Heís Canadian. I have had lots of ideas (moving, changing jobs, etc.) But ultimately, I have to trust God with my sonís life. As a matter of fact, he showed up here this morning expecting me to let him take him, but I refused again. I know I will eventually lose that battle, but Iíll hold out as long as I can.

I am daily thankful that I didnít just start going with him without researching first. But, he was very coy in the beginning. The way I found out ìwhereî he went to church was because he invited me to a hayride and I read the name of the church on the sign in the parking lot. I didnít really know what they believed, but had huge warning bells ringing in my ears that they werenít ìmainstreamî and I thought they were a cult. He told me very few things before we dated and I felt I had grilled him pretty good. But things he focuses on arenít even blips on my radar screen and I never thought to ask about them. He uses a lot of the same words as I do, but I have since learned he has his own dictionary for those words. God was just protecting me. I did go to a weekend retreat once at the peak of my attempts to reach him, but felt like a tropical plant in the north pole.

I do feel for you who have families and friends who have become adversarial because of your choices. I know it must be hard. God bless each of you. I know that must sound so trite, but I canít imagine how hard it has been to walk away from the known/comfortable into what you were taught was ìerrorî...even now believing it was truth. After the argument I just had with my sonís father...I canít imagine doing that for the rest of my life. I pray for you.
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
I couldn't ehlp but hold my head in shame as you recounted your boyfriend's method of Sabbath observance. You could have been describing me. I think you will find that every (without exception) Adventist has deveoped their own standards--which inevitably involves a lot of compromise. The problem of course is that we have not consulted the source. The General Conference adopted guidelines back in 1990 for how the Sabbath should be observed. You can find these at Sabbath Observance Guidelines. If you thought the Pharisees had a lot of rules, wait until you see these. Maybe you should share them with your boyfriend <smile>

You seem to b pretty well grounded and able to see through the deceptiveness of Adventism. Just continue to be open to the Spirit's guiding, and realize that he (the Holy SPirit) may be planning to use you as a witness to your boyfriend in ways that you do not currently realize. As you already indicated though, I wouldn't be making any wedding plans just yet.

God Bless

Doug
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

I had in mind to use this thought also but had not yet done it. I'm so glad you got the chance.

I also tell him Godís original clothes were non-existent, but I didnít know of any nudist SDAs. In fact, heís pretty strong about the ìmodestî dress ...

Heís tried telling me ìspiritî really should be translated breath, to which I replied so you think the ìHOLY SPIRITî is really HOLY BREATH? The greek words are the same. Again, more silence.


Hadn't heard that one yet, thanks.

Have you figured out the reason for this one yet?

he can eat at Subway or Burger King on a Saturday, but if weíre home, he canít.

I think I know; they are more concerned about someone from the "chruch" seeing them than God. I sometimes wonder if they even believe there is a God.

go watch my son play soccer

That's one for him; my s-i-l will not go to his son's games and one time he went to a basket ball game but sat on the floor and played cars with youngest son never being a part of the game. Sometimes in a situation like this I think he is hoping that someone will ask him something and then he can "witness".

I doubt anything would be any different had I been more respectful in my approach, I was just ignorant.

Don't beat yourself up for it. I've walked the same path and just yesterday told my daughter maybe I should not have come on so strong, but for me it was like if I would not tell him he had egg on his face he would be upset and if I did he was upset Dammed if you to Dammed if you don't. I told her that maybe if I had not come on so strong then maybe it might have all gone away and he would have come to his senses but you see then it is revealed to me; what happeded because of it? I know that my daughter is free in Christ and I am also just in the last few weeks know that my grrandsons understand far more than I ever thought they would or could especially the 6 year old. And if I had left it alone maybe it would have gone away but this way I got into my Bible and my daughter got into her Bible and I am more sure about the boys today than I was 4 years ago so knowing that 1 is saved for sure and the other 2 definately on the way is far better than none for sure. And then Romans 8:28 comes to my mind and I am at peace.

At least you knew a little bit. I was totally in the dark about this religion even though I passed by the church every day going to work and it is only a block from my chruch. It just never interested me, I know why now.

But things he focuses on arenít even blips on my radar screen and I never thought to ask about them.

This is so true. I have always felt like I am in the dark trying to talk with him. It's like if I say it's black he says it's white. I mean when scripture says the ministry that brought death was written in letters on stone what other letters written in stone are there than the 10 commandments? And oh yes I have heard the oh we can just committ murder. I was so taken aback by that that when I actually did come to my senses some time later I thought but if you are really in Christ why would you even have a thought like that in your mind?

I never could figure out why all these things progressed like they did until I was reading the Bible thru in a year this year and came across the scritpure in

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

I could not understand this verse. Surely God would not harden someones heart. And then the answer came:Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

I said yes I have seen your miraculous signs; my intense study of the Bible, hearing my husband pray for the first time, and my daughter's surrender to God. I say Praise God the way he moves and works in our lives.

but I have since learned he has his own dictionary for those words.

Thank you so much, very interesting. Never did know how they could come up with meanings of things like justification and santification and anything else that would put them in jeopardy of their interpretation. I have felt it in my gut since day one.

By the way I had the whole discussion about the David ascending also. You see my daughter wanted to tape something one day and went to get a tape and when she started using it realized it has something on it so she listened and it was Doug Batchelor on a call in. Someone asked about the 10 commandments and if we had to keep them and of course in a slip shod way Doug say yes we did to be saved. Well I thought that was something good to present to s-i-l put never got around to it and as I was listening to it one day thinking I would talk with him about it something else perked my interest and it was someone calling about soul sleep and Doug went on to use the Acts 2 scripture. As I did not know anything about this I went to my Bible and found that in fact they had left the key verses out jumping from

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb
is here to this day.
to
34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
And then went on to say now don't you all think that David would surely have gone to heaven but here it says David did not ascend to heaven.

I read and read and read it and went to the reference and said to myself what is up with this and when I said something to my s-i-l about one night when he had come over for a talk and the talk was still going on at 11PM and he gets up at 3 Am I said I could not show him the tape that night because it was to late.

Several months later when I again brought it up to him and had started to email him since we could not talk about this in person he said the reason he had said he didn't see any problem with the Acts 2 interpretation is because I said I did not want to show him the tape???????

I then got into a detailed discussion with his pastor and when he couldn't come up with anything else to say he told me he thought I was under conviction for telling my daughter to get a divorce. That was the last straw. I said to him who told you that I told me daughter to get a divorce since it is totally untrue. Oh he came back and said something about something I had written (which was taken all out of context, imagine that) made him think that I had told her to get a divorce.

I also emailed Doug Batchelor about it and after they knew I knew more about the scripture than they are accustomed to they blocked me form their emails.

I have found this to be the case with several web sites of SDA of which I have asked questions. Like I say when the questions get tough I get dumped.

I thought scripture says we are always to have an answer.


Colossians 4:6
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.


1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect


And so it goes.

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteousness, Carol
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, the one thing that really irks me is that "well, if you don't have to keep the commandments then I guess you can kill and steal" That is so overused with SDA's.

Ask him what he thinks this means.:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. and the second is like it: You shalllove your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets. Matt. 22:37-40

Doesn't sound to me that he is dedicated to God, just the Adventists, and barely there. At least when I tried to be a good Adventist I "kept" the Sabbath.

If your whole life is dedicated to Christ what in the world different do you do on the Sabbath than any other day? It should all be the same, no secular and religious nonsense. God should be able to go everywhere I go all of the time. And He does if He is in our hearts.
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I think is funny is when I ldft everyone kept telling me that saturday was the sabbath but just as you all have mentioned they observe it in many different ways. At lest when I was there I tried to keep it I would not doanything like mentioned above. And when I did tell someone I know longer believed in the sabbath they said that same thing well why not just go kill someone. That statement did not even make sense to me. Thank God for his freedom from all that junk.
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, it seems as though you are struggling just as I have. How much research and study did you have to do before realizing there were flaws in the theology? And did you instantly trust your own study skills? Thatís where I struggled. I didnít trust that I had adequate skills to understand the scripture by myself (in part because B was so convinced that I was taking things ìout of contextî...and I just didnít see what he said was so ìclearî). When I read Ratzlaffs books, it was everything I had come to in my own studies, but far more detailed and scripturally substantiated. It was as if a lead weight had been lifted. I know what you mean about the hardening of pharoahís heart...I have never had the kind of indepth personal study experiences that I have since I started in this relationship. Unfortunately, I have spent it trying to ìproveî myself. But I have also started studying just to see what it says. I used to think I was ìintuitiveî, until I realized that was the voice of God leading me. And I had arrogantly been taking credit for being so ìwiseî to come up with these things. I have to laugh at myself, Iím so dumb sometimes.

Weíve been studying Acts at my church since January and it has been an incredible study. My pastor made the comment that he had taught the series 10 years ago and had struggled with a passage. He called his dad, who was a pastor, and several other pastor friends for their understanding about the text. He ended up disagreeing with all his friends because he just couldnít see what they saw. But now, 10 years later, that is exactly what he saw. I loved that he could admit having grown and been in error about a text earlier. Even our pastors should be on a spiritual journey. ìbî asked if I didnít think SDA pastors could do the same, and I said I didnít really see how. They had to stay in line with EGW and since she ìmakes scripture clearî, there is very little room to be ìunsureî on a personal journey.

I have a friend at church whoís mother has been an SDA for 25 years and he goes with her on Saturday and she comes on Sunday. He considers it a ministry to keep her hearing the unadulterated word of God once a week. I havenít arrived at that place...or maybe God just hasnít lead me to that sacrifice. Nothing says he will lead us all the same way. Itís very ironic because I had tried to end the relationship shortly before I found out I was pregnant, but he said I didnít trust God very much if I was willing to quit that easily .... He thinks God could work a miracle. I said he could, but he had to have people willing to be changed. I thought he would only allow God to change him within adventism. He believes all of the remnant teachings and that they are the ìclosest thing out there to a Biblical churchî.... If he seriously believes that, I canít expect him to change unless and until he yields to God. Heís not my family, so it is easier to wash my hands and walk away, but now that my son is at risk, I understand your frustration. I found asking him to listen to tapes (Clay Peck has a great one about the Sabbath) only ìprovedî to him I was looking for someone to disagree, not looking to scripture itself. I asked him to read books by Ron Numbers, Walter Rea, Sydney Cleveland, and Canright (the most powerful stuff I read because of his personal working relationship with EGW) to no avail. He did read a book by Jerry Gladson but he had him in college and was at the college at the time the events of the book took place. It didnít change anything. I even went to study the Catholic teachings on a few topics to see if they really taught what he said they did. They donít, but he wonít check that out for himself either. I finally gave up trying to get him to read anything, including scripture. I donít know what I will do when it is my son telling me these things. I can only hope that the Lord touches B before Jonathan is old enough to comprehend what heís trying to tell him. Although, I may be underestimating the ability of a child to reason. My 10 year old seems to understand ìwhyî we donít go to church with B and why B may go away some day. Itís hard because he loves him and has spent more time with B than with his own dad. At a very young age, he is learning what we could be asked to sacrifice to follow Christ. I just pray for him and have some great Sunday School leaders who are really interested in him. My mentor couple have agreed to be the ìfatherî in father-son type things so he can be involved in that type of stuff. Step by step, God is taking care of all of my concerns as they are presented. Because I am on the outside of Adventism (and unwilling to try it from his perspective), B doesnít give me any crediblity to really ìcareî about things of God. if I did, I would be one of them. It may be the same with your son in law. Keep loving your daughter. Be a haven of Christís rest to her while staying true to scripture. The other ìformersî are probably better able to tell you if any ìwitnessingî really affected their beliefs, but it seems to me that most get out when they finally open their hearts completely to Christ. Iíve heard that from World Wide Church of God people too. This one former WWCG pastor said he knew that counter-cult people were trying to help, but sometimes they only seemed to fulfill the cultís prophecies about what would happen, which served to strengthen their resolve within their religion, not make them question anything. It is hard to sit back and think there is ultimately little within my contol. And isnít that the hardest of all? But I trust that Great Big Awesome God, who sees the forest and the trees when I canít see the forest through the trees. You are an encouragement to me. Whatís this other forum youíve been on and what is itís purpose? (You had said you had been away??) Iím always anxious to learn more....

Doug...thanks. I have also considered their "rules" to be like the pharisees. Of course, B thinks the same of me...unable to truly understand the law.... Go figure....
Leigh (Leigh)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just read the Sabbath observance guidelines. Are there more than the pharisees had? This text comes to mind:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:9

All I saw was trying to witness about the sabbath. No mention of witnessing about the gospel and the saving grace of Jesus.

I'm new to posting, but not new to the forum. I've been eaves dropping for several months now. I'm a third generation sda with 12 years of adventist schooling searching for and finally finding some truth. I've just finished reading The Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaf. I've also read articles by R. Cottrell, Canwright and others. I'm still going to an sda church and have lots of family and friends in it all over the country. I have trouble even calling myself an sda anymore. I've been reading the Bible more than ever and letting the Holy Spirit be my teacher.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Reading Galations for the first time without my "White" glasses on was so liberating. I couldn't wait to see what the Lord had to say to me in other Bible verses.

Right now I'm shaking as I am typing. I'm still have anxious thoughts about this "theological crisis" I'm dealing with now.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh, I'm so glad you've joined us! I understand your shaking as you post; the crisis of leaving Adventism is by far the most soul and identity-shaking thing that's ever happened to me. As you discover the love of Jesus, howver, and the security of your salvation when you believe him, you'll begin to realize you can follow him anywhere he leads!

Melissa, you have really been through the mill! Your boyfriend's arguments, silences, and quickness to criticize your use of scripture are all so familiar! I heartily second the statements above congratulating you on NOT planning to marry him under the circumstances. I'll pray that you'll have wisdom concerning him and also your son.

What an interesting thread this is; we've been gone this week; we camped near Hume Lake in the Sierra Nevada Mountains in Central California. have any of you heard of Hume Lake Christian camps? Neither had we; we discovered that Hume Lake is privately owned acreage locked between national parks and monuments near Sequoia Nat'l Park, King's Canyon Nat'l Park, and the Sequoia Nat'l Monument. It's the largest youth camp orgaization in the United States. There were nearly 2,000 people in the camps this week: high school camp, jr. high camp, family camp--it was amazing and wonderful and suprassingly beautiful.

Later (when I'm not so tired!) I'll start another thread and tell you about attending an evening meeting for adults our first night there, hearing the pastor of a well-known So Cal church (EV Free, no less) give a sermon on Sabbath-keeping, citing Genesis as his primary text and Exodus 2 as a secondary text! Richard and I nearly fell off our seats. We made an appt. with the pastor and talked to him later in the week.

Again, I'm so glad you're with us, Melissa and Leigh!

Colleen
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

To tell you about my research and study I must take you back some 30+ years and tell you how the Lord prepared one for this very thing that is happening to me now which started 5 years ago this coming fall.

In my early years of marriage and I came to a point one day when I said I don't want to live like this(I will not go into the problem as no one knows this except my husband and I and it would be disrepectful of me to say, suffice it to say though that it is probably not at all what you could dream of it being so that being said just know that I was at the end of my rope)and when I say live I mean exacetly that. Since I did not believe in divorce I thought the only way out was to end my life. While I was not in any way attempting that at the time I certainly had thought about it.

This happened around midnight and we had 3 young children 6,4,2 and my 6 year old said to me since he knew felt I was in a desperate position: "Mommy you pray to God and He will help you". Lights flashed and signals came to mind such as Out of the mouths of babes and A child shall lead them. Although I had always gone to church I had no Bible knowledge but for this reason God had made sure that these verses were instilled in my mind. At that time I could not have told you where they were NT vs OT. When he said those words I imediatley said OK everything will be fine and by that time my our other 2 were up and crying and I put them back to bed and said everything is OK and they went right to sleep. I went back to my husband and said your son has the answer and told him what he had said and then said and I know that it is the truth because these verses came to me.

I am not going to tell you that from that day on everything was fine. What I will tell you is that I started to lean heavily on God for direction and thus a marriage of 39+ years.

In 1975 my Father was diagonsed with Lung Cancer and I called my brothers and told them that we were going to believe that he would be healed and pray as such and it would happen. You see I thought is I was positive about it that God would know I was and then He would give me what I wanted. My wonderful Christ-like brother said but Carol it must be God's will and I said and it will be. My Father died and it took me some time to understand that yes it must be God's will, more about that later.

In 1991 my life was wonderful our first born was married to a wonderful woman and our daughter was married to a wonderful man and then on Janurary 8 I was caled about 9:00 am to say my daughter-in-law had been in an accident and I should b probably come and be with our son. I said OK I have to get ready as I was on my way to work and she said well hurry but be careful because it is very slick. I was starting to feel uneasy and said well how bad is it and she said it's bad. As I drove to the hospital I prayed that God would not let her be a vegatable as I would not be able to handle seeing her in that state since she was such a vibrant and intelligent person. God did not allow that and when I got to the hospital I was to find out that He had taken her home to be with Him.

My son was devasted and I thought this is not fair as I was totally content with his marriage and had left his care in her hands. At the funeral home visitation he came to me and said I want her back and cried on my shoulder like a baby and I was not to know until 2 years ago what pulled him out of that state of despair. I thought that night what am I going to do with him and in the morning I went to him and asked how are you doing and he said "I"M happy and I was blown away now I have this son who has went full circle the other way what on earth is happening. He then preceded to tell me how he had talked with their sheltie collie which they had raised from a pup and said pupper Mommys not coming back and she seemed to understand and licked him all over as if to say we can do it.

What I didn't realize until about 2 years ago when we were in discussion with s-i-l is that he shared how when he told me that he wanted her back I had said "She wouldn't want to come back". I then understood the turn around in his disposition. I never worried again about him. At the funeral he played guitar and sang with his Sunday School class and even talked of his wonderful wife. I was such a proud mother under such hideous cirmcumstances. During the week of her funeral I was to understand the verse Romans 8:28 All things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to his purposes.

In October of that same year he was married again to a woman he had dated earlier and happend to be a 3 cousin and Romans 8:28 was again brought to my mind. His wife is wonderful and never has a problem with allowing first wife to be a part of our memories. I'm crying now because I miss her still and wish so much that I could talk to her as we loved to talk.

Things again went well and our s-i-l went to Fort Hood for the war in Irag and that felt like again my family was being taken away from me. After he came home they bought a newer house and were really settling down. Our son and wife anounced that they would have a baby in December and a few months later our daughter told us they were also expecting in April(this was after she had waited until s-i-l was ready,6 years) Everything was wonderful and I had worried some about my s-i-l since he had come from a disfunctional family but felt that I had given him what he had missed and seemed to put it out of my mind.

Our youngest son was married and I really felt like I was relieved of all my motherly duties except to prepare Sunday dinner for them every Sunday and do whatever else they wanted :go camping, take care of grandkids.

Then our youngest sons marriage fell apart and although I do not condone divorce I told him he had to do what ever he felt like he needed to since he was the one who had to live with it. If he would have been grounded in Christ like he is now I could have told him to trust God but that was not the case then. After his divorce he changed jobs as the one that he worked at was such a dog eat dog thing and he wanted something else for his life (or was it God). He then went to work for a man from our church and about 2 years ago I was to find out that at one of their business dealings he was introduced to Christ by way of Racers for Christ and just in his own mind accepted the call to follow Chirst.

Shortly after that he started going with bosses daughter and the rest is history. This girl sat in the same church as he but it toke God to put them together, Priase God for the way He moves and works in our lives.

Everything is wonderful and on July 22 ,1998
I came home from work a little after 12 and my husband was already eating and I sat down to eat with him. He then went in to take a bath and I thought it a little strange that he was quitting that early as we went to another job at 4:30 and he usually worked until about 2 but I said to myself it is hot and thought no more of it. I went in to wash his back like I have for 30+ years and noticed nothing. I went back to the kitchen to clean up and when he came into the family room right off the kitchen I heard him as he sat down in the recliner sigh quite heavily and I thought he sure sounds tired and then thought I will check and when I went to look around the corner I noticed he was in distress and asked him what was wrong and he said I have this awful pain and showed me that it was in his shoulder and left chest area. I went to him and as I touched him I knew immediately what was wrong and started to walk down the hall to get my stethoscope but thought no I do not have time and called 911. As I was speaking to 911 he had gotten and was pacing the floor trying to get away from the pain. They asked me to tell him to sit down and he did. When I got off the phone with 911 I realized that it would be hard for them to come in with the pram since they would need to go to the back of the house and I asked him if he could walk to the living room which was right at the front door and he did. He laid on the couch and I waited impatiently for the ambulance to get there and they are only 5 blocks away. When they came it was very difficult for them to get the leads on since he was perspiring so badly. He said he was in such pain and they said they would give him something for it, Morphine. When I heard that I thought that when started to take effect he might think he was going out so I told him what would happen and not to worry. I also started to pray that Jesus would help him. The paramedic asked if I could call someone so I started calling my church and our kids. Our youngest son was just a few blocks away and he was there very shortly. When he got there he took me and we started to go to the back of the house. As we got almost to the end of the dining room I heard something and turned to look and my husbands head was blood red purple and twice its size and I screamed he's going and my son took ahold of me and shook me and said "NO Mom". We proceeded to the back sunroom and started to pray. At first it was keep him calm and we need you etc, etc, and all the time we are hearing the paramedics yelling at my husband since he was fighting them. We also heard them say we have a rhythm and I am smart enough and have enough medical knowledge to know that if they had a rhythm they in fact had lost a rhythm. When we didn't know what to pray any longer I started to pray the Lord's prayer and when we got to thy will be done(remember how I had learned about the will of God with my father's death) I said 'No Lord I do not want your will" in my own mind but a hand touched me on the shoulder and I heard these words "I'll be with you" and I said yes Lord and continued on the prayer never breaking stride with my son. I surrendered to the Lord God Almighty, not to heal my husband but to believe that He in fact was going to do what He just said, be with me. Quite frankly at that point and time I thought it was over.

As we finished the prayer the police officer came in to the room and said they are going transport him and I was totally shocked since I know that to transport you must be somewhat stable and all I remember hearing is the trouble they were having with him and the fact they kept talking about rhythm . I told people later that they must have shocked him at least 3 times and I thought that was alot. Turns out he was shocked for sure 14, there was another count of 21 but I am sure I heard 14 form the Doctor and the other was from a nurse which my daughter-in-law told me about.

10 days later and 3 days in an induced coma and a stint put in a clogged artery we went home. The only reminders today are the pacemaker/defibulator implanted in his chest and pictures of the burns on his chest from the shocks.

As of his last sonogram of the heart it is almost back to normal of which they said it would never be.

Then in Fall of 1998 our son-in-law brought this to our lives.

I think I told about how the incorrect scripture was read and that sent me on a glorious study of my Bible. I say glorious because I was into every chance I could get. The TV was never turned on anymore. After the fist 6 months I was sure of what I believed and was persuaded that He was able to keep that which I had committed unto Him against that day.

After that first 6 months I kept thinking what more can I learn and then I got a computer and in February of 2001 I hooked up to internet and Oh my did I learn things then. I found this marvelous place and feel so comfortable here as I have said I feel like it is my church. My church is really Jesus Christ but you know what I mean, I mean I don't know what other term to use so I used church. It is a body of believers who happend to have been SDA's but oh how we can help one another.

That's pretty much it. Like you will see I had the Holy Spirit before I had the Bible knowledge and I think it happens that way with a lot of people. What happens with SDA is because you do not have the Bible knowledge they try to trick you into thinking there is something else. But when you have the Holy Spirit you have the thing that overcomes that other.

Grace and Peace, Carol
Leigh (Leigh)
Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
I was probably at the same college that "B" was at about the same time. I didn't take any classes from Gladson, but my husband did. I remember something going on in the theology department at the time, but was not concerned about it and didn't really know anything. I read about what really happened in Raymond Cottrell's paper about the santuary doctrine just last year.

One of the things that helped to cement my distrust of Ellen White was the "50 contradictions of EGW and the Bible" at

www.christiancommunitychurch.us/dovenet/sda50.htm

I looked up every statement by Ellen White and read it in context from either the books I have here or the White Estate website that has all of her writings. I also looked up every Bible text and read them in context also.

I showed my sister the list. She at times would defended EGW, but this time she was very troubled about what she read.

One of the other things that bothered me alot was all the stuff in her writings that just wasn't in the Bible. Even the children's bible stories and sabbath school lessons. The other night my husband was reading to our children their sabbath school lesson (yes we still go to Sabbath School, mainly because of our friends that are there) about Cain and Able and their was so much added about how God showed Adam how to make an altar, etc.that isn't in the Bible. I can't remember all of it. We looked at each other and said, Let's read this out of the Bible instead.
So much was added in the conflict of the ages series. Like the statement that Noah taught his sons the 10 commandments.
One of the very first things to get me questioning everything that i had always believed in was after I had watched that Noah miniseries that was on TV several years ago. There was a lot of literary liscense taken but there was a part where one of Noah's sons had to drag is wife into the ark because only Noah, his wife, his son's and his sons's wives were allowed on the ark and his wife's mother wasn't allowed to go in. She didn't want to go if her mother couldn't. After that episode i got my Bible and looked up the story in Genesis. I just knew that Noah had preached and pleaded for 120 years just like the blue books and story tapes said. I just assumed it was in the Bible. It wasn't.
I asked this question to alot of my friends and family and they said it's got to be in the Bible some where. But couldn't find it. "I guess we got it from the Spirit of Prophecy." was the usual response.
After that I began to wonder what else had I been taught the wasn't in the Bible.
I don't think Adventists had read this text or if they do they don't think it applies to them:
"Add thou not unto his works, lest he repove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6
I refused to be spoon fed anymore. I refused to have to wonder "is that in the Bible or from Ellen White?"
I told my oldest daughter that everything no matter who says it even (especially) if its in the Sabbath school lesson, she needs to check it out in the Bible and go by what the Bible says. She came across my printed copy of the 50 contradictions, so she's beginning to understand where I am. My husband is reading "The Sabbath in Christ" right now. I continue to Study claiming the promise of James 1:5

"If any of you lack widsom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

One of my favorite Christian CD's is Stephen Curtis Chapman's "Declaration". One of the songs I like singing to the most is "See the Glory"

One of the lines goes:
"When it comes to the grace of God it's like:
I'm playin gameboy standing in the middle of the grand canyon,
I'm eatin' candy sittin' at gourmet feast,
or playin' in a puddle when I could be swimming in the ocean.
Tell me what's the deal with me
WAKE UP AND SEE THE GLORY"

I'm seeing the grace of God in a whole new light.
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh so good to hear another soul trying to focus on God instead of the sabbath. I can only imagine the fear you feel. I know I felt fear from questioning the church and Ellen we are taught that that is sure hell fire. I was swcared to tell my family and friends. I can only tell you it does get better but you sure question yourself for a long time. It was crazy I knew it was wrong what I had been taught but it had been my life for 27 years. The church was my life. You have friends here who will pray for you . Welcome Terryk
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am here again Leigh you are so right I had to relearn the Bible again I did not know what really was there and what was from Pope Ellen. Last year my theme song was I am coming back to the heart of worship Its all about you Lord its all about you. I sat in church last week we sang that song and I just wept and wept thinking of all the time wasted on trying to be good enough wihich the church teaches at the end of time we will be perfect oh the lies we have been brainwashed to believe. Well I hope you keep studying and searching. Terry
Leigh (Leigh)
Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen and Terry for the welcome and prayers. There was not much shaking during the typing of my second post. I think the fear is subsiding a little for now.
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am not sure of anyone else but you go throughmany emotions. First disbelief,fear,sadness and that alot of anger. Time has heled many of those emotions. I still feel anger for the lies they just keep preaching and the lives they mess up.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just want to extend a we;lcome to the new folks on here. I am 52 years old, raised mostly sda but also somewhat Church of God (Seventh-day) and Worldwide Church of God. I have not attended the sda church of my own free will for many years and never got too much greif from family about it until they found out that I'd totally sold out to the truth and became a bonified member of a local Lutheran church. Now it's misery city regarding their concern for my salvation. Hang tough!!!!!!!

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