| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Saw some interesting information on Mark Martin's web site. He has statistics that show that SDA's have the second highest attrition rate of any demonation, where people are "born into it." Jehovah's Witness are number one. This is an interesting statistic, since many people never drop their names--my name is still officially on the books, and I know from experience that local churches are generally reluctant to remove names. Click here to see the data. Doug | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I found the actual study that was being referenced. click here to see a more detailed chart. It is interesting to note that Jehovah's Witness and SDA have the highest attrition rate, but they also have to highest "conversion in" rates as well. Just as interesting is the extremely low attrition rate for those who simply identify themselves as Protestant or Non-denominational. I am curious as to what you guys make of this information. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Interesting, Doug. My speculation is that those born into Adventism often do not really study or understand it. They experience it, and it feels familiar, but much like an eccentric great aunt the family tries to ignore, they don't make a point to get to understand it. Because their Adventism is an inheritance, not a conviction, they don't feel passionate about it except as it identifies (or doesn't identify) them. Attrition, by the way, is not necessarily (or even usually) to a relationship with Jesus. It's just a move out. Many "born into" Adventists find Adventism impractical, confusing, and impossible to "do" right. The Sabbath thing causes continual angst and failure. Many people leave because it just doesn't make sense. Nothing else makes any better sense, but they can't live in the place where their supposed beliefs don't make sense. Others, I think, sometimes do try to figure out why Adventism doesn't work and why other Christians seem to have something they don't have. They end up studying their way out. On the other hand, I see the "conversion in" phenomenon as having two prongs. On one hand, Adventism is extremely attractive in countries where becoming SDA promises a middle-class life. People in third-world counties can clean up, get educated, find respectable jobs, and even gain a measure of local power by becoming Adventist. On the other hand, I see many Christians who are not well-versed in scripture or the glory of the new covenant being deceived by Adventism because of the Ten Commandments. When Christians believe that the Ten Commandments are the rule of life for Christians, then it's a "slam-dunk" for an Adventist evangelist to convince those people that they need to become Adventists in order to properly keep the Ten. Protestant and non-denominational categories tend not to be "distincitve" the way Adventism and Jehovah's Witnesses are. Saying one is "protestant" does not require any statement of faith. Likewise, non-denominational dosen't necessarily imply a personal faith. Huge numbers of people can live comfortably within those designations without ever having to identify themselves in any distinctive way. While I am both Protestant and non-denominational, I believe the term "evangelical" most accurately describes me. Many kinds of sub-categories can exist within Protestantism and non-denominationalism. The more "distincitive" categories don't include the same diversity. I'm curious, also, to hear others' reactions! Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I will go look at it, but I read somewhere else one time that having the rigidity of a belief structure like Adventism and JW might be appealing because you can "know" exactly what to do to live for God, where other churches are less "specific" about how God wants them to live. I can see that in a very simplistic view. Living by the Spirit's leading does seem harder than having a list of specific things to do/avoid. I have to spend time with God as opposed to merely following what someone else says God wants us to do. I've been learning how hard it is to spend time with God and truly find out where he is leading me specifically (hard because of that "wait" time). I'm speaking purely personally, though. I'm going to go look at what it says specifically and see what I think then too. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
I agree, Melissa, that following a visible, highly-structured code of moral directives is often simpler and certainly less time consuming. For example, our Adventist and Catholic friends largely let their professional hierarchy dictate dogma to them. We live in a culture of specialists. We like everyone doing their specialized professional or trade thing. The service industry has become the largest segment of our economy. However, in the truest sense, Christianity is not a religion, but rather it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Salvation is a very personal matter. It is not something that can be relegated to another person or system specializing in churchanity. Indeed, we are part of the priesthood of believers. What an awesome privilege to kneel before the God of heaven with all our needs and joys! My wife and I are so awed to finally know Him personally. In fact, human words fail to adequately express our joy. When business clients discover that we are no longer Seventh-day Adventists, my wife simply tells them, "We are Christians now." In most cases, people will respond by saying something like, "That is really wonderful. I am so glad to hear that." She concludes by telling them where we now formally worship and says, "You would really love it there too." By the way, two of our clients have recently become members of our church family. What a privilege to pray for a desire to pray, pray that God would prepare us to hear Him, pray that we will recognize our need for God, praise God for who He is, what He's done, and what He will do. Indeed, I will honor this relationship with Jesus; I can never go back to legalism. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
It was one of the hardest things for me to come out of. I was like a fish floundering out of water. For so many years I knew exactly what I thought God wanted a sabbath keeper non meat eater, non-drinking,Ellen White quoteing tithe paying person. Then I found out I do not know where people go when they die I do not have to eat that funky meat out of a can. I do not have to shut myself down for 27 hours etc. Now what do I do to prove I am a christian? It has been a long scarey journey and it still is hard at times. It is much easier to keep the list then find out for yourself what God wants from you. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I'm just wondering what the researchers used for data. 27% seems too low! I was up at Redwoods Campmeeting and this subject came up. One of the speakers said that the SDA church believes there are almost three million ex-SDA's in North America! (If I remember right it was Doug Bachelor who said this). The reason I'm wondering about the methodology is that it is so hard to get your names off the church books. My name is still there as the last church I was at closed down and all the memberships were transferred to the conference office. I called to find out what I had to do to get my name off. I was told that the conferences can't remove names from the church record. I would have to have my name transferred to a local church, who would then have to meet and agree to remove the name. I figured it was more trouble than it was worth! So....how do you find out who is an ex-SDA? | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Loneviking, This is where I differ somewhat with Colleen's statement:
Most of the people who fall into this cateogory still consider themselves Adventists. They believe it is "the truth" or "it has more truth than any other Church." My sister is a prime example. She has not set foot in an Adventist church in probably 10-15 years, except for the occasional visit for the sake of family, funeral, or wedding. However, in talking to her a while back, she informed me that if she were to go to any church, it would be the Adventist church. In my experience, most people who have left the church, do not come to a greater understanding of the Gospel, they simply "fall away" from Adventism. That is why the SDA Church places so much emphasis on "homecoming" weekends. They are not designed for people like us who's view of the gospel have changed, but those who got tired of striving and the associated guilt, and therefore found it easier to just give up. So, that 27% has to only account for people who have asked for their names to be removed, or those who after many years as an inactive member, finally had their names dropped. The number is probably much higher than that. My experience has also been that whenever an evangelistic crusade was conducted, the dropout rate was somewhere close to 75% or more (not counting rebaptisms). It would be years before many of these people's names were dropped from the rolls (if at all). If a person indicated even a cursory interest in the church (i.e. attending once in a blue moon), their names were kept on the books. I run into people all of the time who claim Adventist roots, but do not practice. I wonder how many of them have their names on the books somewhere. It is probably very similar in other cults (i.e. JW and Mormon). Ironically, I am a member of the church that I currently attend, but never did anything but attend a "foundations" class that presented the basic Gospel (in four hours not three weeks) and an overview of the church's vision. I am not sure anyone is really even that concerned with whether I am a "member" or not. What difference does it make? Interesting Doug In His Grace | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I found the chart interesting as well. I attended a leadership conference at our church a few weekends ago and they were talking how our official membership rolls had dropped from 1600 to 1000 after our current pastor came, but that was at his initiation. He believes that if someone is a member of a church, they should be an active member. So, he got the elders busy and families that had not recorded attendance in x number of weeks were eventually contacted by an elder (after a couple of letters) and asked if they were interested in being a member any more. After a year, they had the rolls cleaned up so that now 90+% of our congregation is in worship each month. My neighbor, on the other hand, is a methodist. Their church gets some sort of financial assistance (they're in a poor community) based upon membership. So, if you've ever joined, even if you haven't been in years, you're classified as a member and they're not about to drop your name. So, as I learned in graduate school, statistics are merely a tool and are only as good as the methodology used to collect it. You can make them say what you want if you're careful. Did they control for these factors (difference in membership criteria)...the chart doesn't say. As an affirmation to Doug's comment...our church also has membership classes completely separate from salvation or baptism professions. (You can get saved and not join, if that's your desire.) They're 2 hours focusing on values, mission statement and expectations. The main value I see to membership is accountability. But there is also a legal issue. Since the church is a tax-exempt group, you have to have a "valid" membership roll with so many people to protect the exempt status. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
One more thought...Colleen mentioned those "born in". I think many people stay with the religious tradition of their parents. I had a friend who called it religious incest ... counting as growth what is really only the birth of existing church members children. It would have been interesting had they asked those in the so called "leaving" group whether they were born into that group. But that would have required a personal contact survey and I'm willing to bet this one was done more on analyzing existing church's data rather than actual sample surveying. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good point, Doug. You're right; those who leave because they can't make sense of Adventism do usually still consider themselves Adventists somewhere down deep inside. Melissa, I share your questions about how the data was gathered and what qualified as attrition: missing members, those who've asked to be removed, etc.? (As Doug also pointed out, asking to have one's name removed does not mean it will be. While I believe our former church removed our names from its books, they're still on the conference records. It's hard to know how to become truly removed!) | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I'm curious if it's as hard to be removed from the church roles in other denominations as it is in Adventism. I have a friend who wrote his letter and after 2 years and multiple refusals by the pastors to remove his name, he finally went to a board meeting personally and forced the issue and was finally voted out. I wrote my letter and met with a pastor. Months went by, then the head pastor asked to meet with me, then more months went by and I got a call by another pastor who asked me if I really wanted to do this. When I stated I did he asked me to send another letter. A month later I finally received notfication that I was out. My wife called this last pastor to get her name removed as well. He gave her a big song and dance about the technical difficulties of removing her name and how they would need something formal in writing then it would have to be voted on in a board meeting, not just any board meeting, but a special board meeting that wouldn't happen for another year. He told her how difficult this would be for her parents because it would need to be an open board meeting for the whole church. He strongly presured her to just let him put her on "the inactive list" which she finally consented to (I wonder if such a thing even exist). As a result we still get the Review and all kinds of other mailings. Why on earth is it so difficult to get removed. Do these people believe there is some sort of salvation in at least having your name on the SDA books or is financially driven, i.e. related to allocation of tithe monies or conference monies? Chris | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
That's a rhetorical question, right? Doug | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I can speak to the southern baptist, american baptist and already mentioned the christian chuch I'm in. In the SBC, each month there are business meetings where all decisions of the church are discussed. Any member who chooses to show up is welcome. That is where the names of those who have requested to join were voted in and those who requested their names removed were removed. I never heard anyone rejected who requested to join and only one time heard a lady opposed to someone leaving (but it was her daughter and she was sortof joking...it's not the same issue to leave one church for another in my experience, even if it was another denomination. I went from a SBC to an ABC, an Assembly of God, back to a SBC and then to the christian church I'm in now. Other than people "missing you", there were not spiritual issues or concerns). It was a majority vote and all requests were always granted. Their records were moved to something called a "dead" file. It had information about baptisms etc. and occasionally people would want to know what date they were baptized after leaving the church, etc. But beyond that, the files were never looked at. (They were index cards). In the American Baptist church I attended, if you hadn't been in attendance in the church in a year, your name was removed automatically. I remember voting one year to see if we wanted to continue that practice. So, it was obviously a choice of the church membership. Joining in the baptist church was not a big deal as it is in the SDA church. There are no classes before, but there were optional new members classes later ... geared to the baby in Christ. In the AOG church, it's similar to the SBC. My dad has been a part of the presbyterian church, my step-mom the lutheran church and neither has ever had any problems moving interdenominationally. Also, i've never been in a church that cared what denomination you were baptized in, only that it was following their faith in Christ. I know of some who were baptized as adults that had been sprinkled as infants, but that was their personal conviction they needed to be immersed. Seems I read of people being re-baptized into Adventism even if they've already been immersed elsewhere. Having said all that, having your name removed is not quite the issue it seems to be in the SDA church either. The name of the church you belong to is insignificant other than identifying with a local body of believers. I am only aware of one pastor of a church I did not attend saying he had refused to remove someone's name. They were going to Jehovah's Witnesses and he said he would move her to inactive for a period of time (3-6 months) and if after that time she still wanted to be removed he would, but he tried to counsel her regarding the spiritual direction she was headed. She eventually came back, rejoined the church and thanked the pastor for his counsel. B has used the growth of the SDA church to "prove" God is working there. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?? Those are my experiences. I'm not sure if they speak universally to the denominations as a whole, though. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Quote: "B has used the growth of the SDA church to "prove" God is working there. I wonder if that has anything to do with it??" I think it's real growth for the most part, but mostly in 3rd world nations where people seem to be truly desperate for the Gospel (or even a dim shadow of it) righ now. Of course the fallacy of B's argument is that the JWs and Mormons are also experiencing a huge explosion of growth in 3rd world nations at about the same rates as SDAs. So using this logic, the JW and Mormons must be just as right as SDAs. Actually if we're going to use numbers to decide who's right and who God backs the most, then Roman Catholocism must be the most correct strain of Chrisianity in all the world. I wonder how many SDAs would agree with that? Chris | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Recently at the sda church I attend on Saturdays with my mother a young lady was bapitzed and taken into membership. At the close of the service the minister had her come to the front of the church where she was presented with a gift basket full of really nifty goodies, a boquet of beautiful fresh cut flowers and a booklet that the minister handed to her anmd as he gave her the booklet he told her to read it a little bit at a time as she had the opportunity as in that book she would learn more about the beliefs and dictrines of the seventh-day adventist church and if she ever had any questions about what she was learning from the book she could always come and ask him to explain. I did not ask her or the minister but I have always wondered if that young lady who became a seventh-day adventist even had any idea of what the sda church believes except that it is a Christian church that worships on Saturdays. It rather seemed to me that she hadn't been informed of any of the sda peculiar beliefs before her joining. I believe I am right on this. I also think that is a bit deceptive and when she finilly does learn what the sda church believes then one of two reactions is likely. One, she can already be so entrenched in the local church, bounds to her friends and all that she will accept that since they are such nice people then the weird doctrines must be truth or two, as was the case with one of my closest friends who joined the sda church and had never even heard of egw until after she'd been a member for quite some time, she felt that the church lady who came to her house weekly to give her Bible studies had not leveled with her, that by withholding the sda loyalty to egw until after she was a member that it was the same as lying to her and she promptly renounced her sda affiliation. Also, at the local Lutheran church where I hold my membership if someone has been totally inactive for two years then that persons name is automatically dropped. I asked once what inactive ment and I was told that to come to no church functions for two years, to not have anything to do with the church in any way whatever for two years was considered inactive. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Chris, Adventist pastors have no incentive to keep membership records up-to-date. I was once a member of two SDA churches simultaneously for several years. SDA pastors are analyzed monthly with a baptismal report from every district in the Conference (a monthly newsletter depicts every pastor's current and accumulative baptism totals). For an SDA pastor is truly clean house on the membership records (i.e., removing non-attenders for a ten or twenty year absence, even removing deceased members is a slow process, etc.), it could impact his career success very seriously. Obviously, it is most essential for the SDA pastor to show growth in membership continually. A large number of so-called "apostasies" would look very suspicious to Conference officials. Also, once a year or at least every two years (unknown to the pastor) the Conference officials examine the personal tithing records of every local pastor. The Conference auditors are charged with the responsiblity to take special note of every local pastor's compliance with the Adventist-version of the tithing codes. In the event that a local pastor is not paying an "honest tithe" (being the Conference knows exactly what his income is), he is called unto the red carpet in the presence of several officials. He is then required to pay BACK TITHE to keep his job (monthly payment arrangements are sometimes allowed if it is a large amount). It is akin to working out a payment plan with the IRS for back taxes (smile). Furthermore, I believe it is a moral issue to have my name removed from SDA membership records. Why would I even remotely want a membership in a cultic movement? Why would I want my name listed with an organization that condones the killing of unborn babies, etc.? Also, having your name removed from SDA rosters is a public profession of your Christian faith. It is a powerful witness to attendees at the business meetings that are typically held once or twice a year in the larger SDA churches. I realize that many are rushing through the back doors of Adventist churches without even saying good-bye. Because my wife and I left Adventism solely for theological reasons, we had no fear to give a defense for orthodox Christianity. We cordially invited the senior SDA pastor to visit us in our home. He said that they would at least twice, but he never showed up. He obviously had better things to do (smile). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
MORE ADVICE ON LEAVING THE "TRUTH" Almost a year ago, I was asked to draft a letter of resignation for a young person who already had been a member of another church for several years. This person did not want any interactions with SDA clergy nor to be on their mailing lists for newsletters, SDA magazines, Conference mailings, etc. These preferences were plainly stated in the letter I drafted. I stated in the letter that an official letter stating that the name was removed is requested. Futhermore, it is a LEGAL right to have one's name removed from any organization in the USA. The local SDA church never even acknowledged receiving the letter, but they finally sent a letter verifying that the membership was officially removed several months later. Also, they stopped all mailings immediately, which indicated that the removal process was in motion. There are shortcuts in getting the job done. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2004 |
This is an interesting discussion as my name got removed at the local church level because I quit going to church when I was going through my divorce. I was told about it a couple years later when I met a friend from that church at the market, if I remember correctly. Then I almost rejoined!!!!! Thank God, He stopped me and brought to my attention all the web sites on the Internet written by former SDAs. Would my name being droppped off the local church books mean it is taken off the conference books?? I do not want my name on any SDA books. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 156 Registered: 12-2003 |
Proabably, Flyinglady. Do you still get your Union paper, I believe yours would be The Recorder? If not, you're probably not on the conference list! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 131 Registered: 3-2004 |
No, I do not get the Union paper and have not for a long time. Thank God he pulled me out of the SDA church and used my 12 step program to teach me about spirituality. Diana |
