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Lori
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have just recently remembered this "doctrine" that I was taught in my Adventist childhood:

Satan will be punished for the sins of those who chose to believe in Christ. When he is cast down to hell that he will "burn" for our personal sins, instead of us, because we have chosen to believe in Christ.

This belief cancels out what took place on the cross! If our sins can be transferred to Satan then why did Christ ever bear them at all? AND, (this is a scary thought)-if our sins are placed on Satan then that places him on a much higher plane-he becomes our Saviour! By his (Satans) "dying" for our sins we are saved???

This teaching goes against ALL the Biblical doctrines of the unlimited atonement of Christ on the cross? Where do the Adventist get their basis for the doctrine? Is this an "old" doctrine that has been left behind or is it one that is still taught?

Lori
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Lori,

There does seem to be a limited sense in
which Ellen G. White "feared Satan" to the
point where she elevated him to the status of
godhood and thus became almost a bit of a
Satan worshiper.

Hate to say that, but it appears to be true.
Thanks for pointing it out without bitterness.

Maybe sentiments such as those expressed
by her are the reason Scripture keeps warning
us to "fear God" ALONE.

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,

This teaching is still being taught. Weekly I still study with devout SDAs and this is one of those topics that we have loving disputes over.

However, in this, I'm seeing God do a mighty work in showing His Truth in even the most stout SDA!

God Bless you always,
DtB
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Lori again,

You asked:

"Where do the Adventist get their basis for the doctrine?"

It arrives from the OT. Book of Leviticus, chapter 16. In verse 21 of Chapter 16, it reads:

"He [Aaron] is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites-all their sins-and put them on the goat's head.

He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task,"

Verse 22

"The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert."

This is the 'scapegoat.' that the SDAs talk of and teach to this very day. The actuall word for one of the goats is 'scapegoat' beginning in verse 8. From my NIV.

Take a look at Leviticus 16, the entire Chapter to see how the sacrifice of sins is done and you will see how they use this 'scapegoat.'

God Bless you in your study,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

The goat doesn't represent Satan. It
represents Christ. For Leviticus 1:3 shows
that any animal of sacrifice had to be "without
blemish."

If the goat represented Satan, then Satan
would have to be "without blemish." Therefore
the goat MUST logically represent Christ, for
Christ alone is "without blemish."

Agreed?
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Of course agreed Max,

I was simply answering Lori's question as to where the SDAs managed to derive this heretical doctrine from.

You have read my posts and my view of this heretical doctrine.

God Bless you,
DtB
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I certainly have, and I don't know of any
spirit more true-blue than yours! God is
certainly blessing you and your witnessing,
you Berean you!

MC
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Max,,,I'm over here chuckling at your words "you Berean you!"

Not because they are funny but that considering what names I've been called and am currently via email and phone, being called, this is wonderful!

And might I add, 'a berean' is absolutely opposite of the types of names I'm currently being called.

Thank you and Blessings on your head Max,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
Valm
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In all contexts that I know of other than the SDA context a scapegoat is an innocent getting blamed . Valerie
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Valerie,

In my NIV commentary on the scapegoat it reads:

"That is, the goat of removal, Hebrew azazel; in verses 8,10 and 26."

God Bless,
DtB
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I once heard a sermon on the scapegoat. Not in an SDA Church but somewhere else, I don't remember now.

But the guy talking was saying that it also meant 'to put outside the camp.'

He went on to explain how Jesus died 'outside the gates of the city' and that this scapegoat represented Jesus.

God Bless you always,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding 'azazel,' here is the lexicon search of the Hebrew word and meaning:

05799 `aza'zel {az-aw-zale'}

from 05795 and 0235; TWOT - 1593; n m

AV - scapegoat 4; 4

1) entire removal, scapegoat
1a) refers to the goat used for sacrifice for the sins of the people
1b) meaning dubious
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Ms. Berean!

Does your study lead you to the conclusion
that azazel = scapegoat = Christ?

After all, Scripture says Christ "suffered
outside the camp." The other goat didn't suffer
outside the camp. So it seems to me that both
goats typify Christ.

To think that azazel = scapegoat = Satan
would be to think that Satan is our Savior!

Maybe some people think he is their Savior.
Thus they would be Satan worshipers.

I can't escape this logic. Can you?
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as I see it Max, you are right on target.

The scapegoat that was put out of the camp does indeed represent Jesus.

Even according to the lexicon meaning, the first use of the meaning of azazel or scapegoat, is the goat that was the sacrifice for the sins of the people.

Satan is not our scapegoat as taught in the SDA Church. Purely illogical and evil is such a teaching.

Blessings aways Max,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus.

For He is our sin bearer as according to Isaiah 53 as just one example in the OT.
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I should have stated that (1a) is showing us that this 'scapegoat' or 'azazel' is the sin bearer.

Nobody, nor any principality or any other power was to bear our sins but Jesus Christ. Only God is Holy enough to bear our sins.

And that He did! Praise His Holy Name All you people!

Now the adventists will argue that the scapegoat did not bleed and without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

To this I must refer them to the Bible. For the Bible shows us how Sovereign God is and how Holy God is as well.

With His Sovereignty and His Word we must refer to.

If God chose to have two goats, one that was sacrificed within the camp, by the shedding of blood, and one that was sent out of the camp to die, without the shedding of blood...who is anyone to question Him?

Who can argue with God?

How do we know why God chose to do this in this way? We don't. We can only presume.

But in all of our presumptions and assumptions, only God is Sovereign and knows why.

Off hand I could come off with a host of assumptions as to why but I must refrain as to not add confusion at this time.

God Bless all,
Mostly we should bless and praise the Lord!

your sister in Christ Jesus,
DtB
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here I am again.

I wanted to point out that both the shedding of blood and being put out of the camp are both represented by a goat.

Jesus shed His blood 'outside the camp.' Both goats represent Jesus Christ.

Another thing that I've encountered in my studies with the SDAs, is that most firmly believe that a goat represents evil and a lamb represents good.

How do they or can they explain the goat that did shed blood? Remember it was a goat, not a lamb in Leviticus 16.

God Bless,
DtB

In hopes that I've not confused anyone.
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, Hi! :-)) God be with you always and with your studies! Thank-you for the above; which I so agree with! You wrote:

"Nobody, nor any principality or any other power was to bear our sins but Jesus Christ. Only God is Holy enough to bear our sins.
And that He did! Praise His Holy Name All you people!"

Because sin is a rebelling against, not just an impersonal "law", but a turning away and rebelling against the very nature of God Himself!... our debt was enormous... and only God could pay it. Only His life was ransom enough!

We needed this radical atonement; and at the Cross He substituted HIMSElf for us--to SAVE us, and SATISFY His Holiness.

The wrath of God against sin was poured out at the Cross, inflicted on Christ instead of us!
He became a cursed thing "hanging on that tree"; cursed instead of us!

And by His Righteousness Alone we have ACCESS into the Father's presence...where we can LIVE FOREVER!

Grace always,
Cindy
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Cindy,

Hallelujah and Amen!

Let's Praise Him together!

Blessings and love always, in Jesus Christ, our Sure Rock and Mighty Fortress, our Savior!

DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, :-)) Hope you'll have a restful night!! :-))
I'm heading off to bed... I have to wake up too early...:-(( :-((

Grace to you always,
Cindy
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lord be with you Cindy, May He give you sweet dreams! :)

Goodnight and God Bless,
DtB, your sister in our Lord Jesus

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