| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I was listening to Bob George's broadcast from yesterday and the topic of "fasting" came up. Bob said that the root word for "fasting" is to hold fast to something (i.e. Jesus) and that there is no basis for the idea that it involves abstaining from food. In fact, he said he does not see any benefit from the spiritual discipline of fasting (as understood by many Christian Churches today). I don't totally disagree with him. In fact, I attended a SDA church that had a "day of fasting and prayer" once a month. After about two months, I quit doig it because it seemed that we were trying to win God's favor, through the physical act of denial--in fact it was stated that we were showing God that we were serious about that that we were praying for. I concluded that since I did not have a good understanding of the practice, I should not be doing it. However, I am not sure I can accept Bob's premise that it has nothing to do with abstaining from food, since that is exactly what the greek work (from Strong's concordance) means. There are other greek words (used in the epistles) that refer to holding fast to something, but everytime the word is used in the Gospels, it is referring to abstaining from food. I sent him a e-mail asking for clarification, but am not sure I'll get a response. I am curious as to how people on the forum here understand this topic. Thanks in advance. In His Grace | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, This is an interesting topic of discussion. Not having heard exactly what he said, I can't judge correctly, but taking what you gave, I think i could agree with both views. I have always understood the subject of fasting to be in the context of abstaining from food. Taking what Bob George said here, though, I can see where he's coming from. I speak for myself here, but when I look at fasting, and when I have participated in fasts before, it very quickly becomes a law for people. In my own experience, the campus fellowship I was part of held fasts about twice a year, praying and interceding for the development of the group and the direction it was headed. This was all well and good, but to me it had an air of "If we do this, we're doing something good for God" or "God will be pleased if you do this." Don't get me wrong, these were never explicitly stated, but to me, they were very much implied. In addition to the "Thou shalt fast" mentality, there is the "Thou shalt not eat" appendage. We would have a fast of about a day and a half, and it would cause me so much guilt for me to take a bite of anything. The idea is that I'm supposed to be praying, not eating. Romans 6 and 7 readily come to mind as I write this. When we fast, we create a law for ourselves that says, "Do not eat" but all that law does is stir up the temptation to eat! We feel guilt and despair when we fail to fast, because we think that we're displeasing God. Bob George makes it a point to tell his listeners that we need to get ourselves out of that kind of legalistic bondage and focus on Jesus Christ. I'm certainly not going to say he's wrong either, but I do see his point. But that's just my take. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Joel, the point you made about stirring up the desire to eat (and that becoming the focus), was just the point that Bob made--and the feelings I had when I fasted. That being said, how do we deal with the fact that Jesus said some things do not come, except by fasting and prayer. The greek word used means, "abstaining from food." Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, I don't have an answer to your question, but I do remember that the situation about which Jesus said some things do not come about except by fasting and prayer was the chaos he found when he came down from the Mount of Transfiguration and found his nine other disciples frantic because they had been unable to cast out a demon from a boy whose father had brought him. He actually said that the demon was one which wouldn't come out without fasting and prayer. Yet Jesus also said his disciples did not fast because the Bridegroom was with them. That statement certainly implies that it was not the lack of fasting the kept the disciples from casting out the demon. (He said that after he left they would have plenty of opportunity to fast.) The reality is that Jesus never commanded his people to fast, either when he was with them nor later, after he left. That doesn't make fasting irrelevant, I'm certain, but I have had trouble for a long time with the idea of fasting as a regular spiritual discipline. It just seems too much of a "work". I'm sure that committing onesself to prayer and surrendering one's right to self-indulgence is a good thing. I'm more and more inclined to believe that my job as a Christ-follower is to surrender myself to Jesus continually, allowing him to show me the things he wants me to do and to convict me of ways he wants me to change. I'm sure that God does impress people to fast and pray sometimes. I'm not sure, though, that it's something we must feel we have to do in order to get God to respond to our prayers. I'm still open to understanding the subject better, though! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, I think I was merely staing my agreement with your thoughts and giving you my personal take on it. I certainly am in no disagreement about fasting being about abstension from food, and I agree with Colleen in that I've looked at it as a work. I have a hard time believing that Bob George would make a statement thats totally out in left field (not to give him more credit than he's due, he is human). I'm likely going to have to hear exactly what he said before I can make any further comment. Otherwise, i may just have to call in to his show tomorrow night! =) | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, Are you sure it was yesterday's broadcast? I'm trying to look it up on his website. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Joel, I was not in disagreement with you. In fact, i agree with you and Colleen totaly. I am just puzzled about how you reconcile that position with the actual definition of the word. It was the August 25th broadcast. Here is the link . It is the broadcast entitled "How to Deal with Emotions" (or something like that. It is one of the first callers. Listen to the call, and let me know what you think. Doug | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Joel, by the way, I would have agreed with your statements about Bob not making statements that are out in "left field" until I heard his comments later in the same broadcast about Christian Psychology. Hopefully he was just stating his opinion, but I think some of the comments he made were definitely "out there." If I were to transfer some of his philosophies about mental health to physical health, I would be a good candidate for Christian Science. I don;t condemn him though. He is a man, and not infallable, as you indicated. Doug | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, I listened to the broadcast on my computer last night and I don't think that I'm any closer to an answer than I was yesterday. Elaborating on your last point though, Bob George is very opinionated on certain topics; for example, in the same broadcast he was asked to comment on the situation on Alabama. I have heard him make some comments in the past about Word of Faith teachers like Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin, who I grew up listening to and came out of. He has opinions. We all do. I'm sure you and I would more than agree that it doesnt change our perception of him or the impact his ministry has had on us. I do value his opinion though and if nothing else, it causes me to think a little, as in this case. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I also listened to Bob George talk about fasting and Christian counseling. As much as I respect him and recommend his books, I do think he begged the question of fasting. I looked up "fasting" in The New Bible Dictionary by Inter-Varsity Press, and it said that whenever the word "fasting" was used in the Bible, it referred to a complete abstinence from food, not merely to limiting one's intake. It said nothing about "holding fast". While I tend to agree with George's view that holding fast to Jesus and praying are what God requires of us, still the issue of fasting in the Bible is an issue of eating or not eating. I tend to think that Jesus' comment about that type of demon not coming out without fasting and prayer probably refers to a completely surrendered attitude that allows nothing to distract one from praying for the problem at hand. I don't see a clear command to fast in the New Testament. Again, I'm not arguing against it. I just don't see it as a command. I likewise don't see anything to suggest that God will not as fully answer prayers that aren't accompanied by fasting--with the exception of that one statement by Jesus. And since Jesus said his disciples didn't fast because he was with them, and we know he sent them out to cast out demons, it seems to me that Jesus' statement about fasting was suggesting a totally self-renouncing attitude that put intercession ahead of one's own needs. I may be wrong about this, but that's the way it looks to me at this point. Colleen | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
Just a few thoughts on fasting: The idea of fasting meaning "holding fast" seems suspcious to me, as the comparison only works in English, not in other languages. According to a dictionary I checked, the expression "fasting" is etymologically related to the idea of holding fast, but the original idea was probably mediaeval, and it meant to hold to a particular relgious observance. It did not mean hold on to Jesus. The idea of abstaining from food is not excluded. The words go back to Old Germananic. In German itself the words have diverged - fasten and festhalten - almost the same, but not quite. In Hungarian for instance, the expressions have totally different roots and no comparison is possible. In Matthew 6: 16-18 Jesus does not specifically command people to fast, but he does seem to assume they will, as he says, do it like this, and not like that. I do not think it is a way of twisting God's arm or a means of gaining brownie points, as there is no way we can do that anyway. I personnally find it a useful exercise for focusing on God when I want to spend an extended time seeking him. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Adrian, You appear to have adopted an individual application to the idea of fasting, as opposed to a coroporate one. I think the manner in which you recommend fasting has merit and is scirpturally based. Indeed, it is why Jesus instructed his followers not to fast in the manner of the Pharisees, who twisted their face and did all sorts of other external behaviors in order to be seen by man. However, when one goes into their closet and fasts as a means of drawing nearer to God, the opportunity for self-exaltation is drastically reduced. Thanks for giving us a different perspective. Doug |
