| Author | Message | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Did any of you all read "Project Sunlight?" I remember reading it in Academy. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Yes, we really did play that game. I remember a SDA novel about the end of time where one of the minor characters was a doctor who was also a former Adventist. He had forsaken the denomination (and the Sabbath) and he only realized the full extant of his error when he noticed spots/boils start to show up on the back of his hand (one of the seven last plagues). Wish I could remember the name of it. Does that ring any bells with anyone? | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Being a Pathfinder was important. "An army of youth rightly trained" We were many "survival" tricks that we'd be ready for the end time. Starting fires and cooking without striking a match,identifying edible plant and camping primitive-style, were important skills we HAD to learn in preparation for the "time of trouble" I cringe at the memory of the fear and humiliation I experienced at the hands/mouth of the Conference's Youth Director while threatening to deny a few of us the Master Guide Award because we weren't quick enough quoting the "Third Angel's Message". At AY Meetings there were often mock scenes when people would rush into the church with machetes ready to kill us because we were worshipping on "Saturday". It was ridiculous. I wonder,Do they still place such importance on Pathfindering? | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Oh yes it is still alive and kicking. They had so many plays where they had people run in with guns. I talked with someone who has left the church and she said she had ruined her teeth she would get so upset about end time she would have nightmares and grind here teeth. What a lovely experince we have all had. And yes they still teach ediable plants because you have to know in the end times. In the last few years I was in the church I kept wondering what mountians I would run to because where I live they keep building houses. Oh the stuff we used to believe. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Yes indeed - what lovely experiences! If this doesn't suggest we were a part of a sick denomination I don't know what will! What memories! Yes, Doug, I read "Now", and think it might even be what you are referring to Chris. I think "Now" had an apostate doctor in it. That book scared the you know what out of me! But I couldn't put it down. I think I was only about 10 or 11 when I read it, maybe even a bit younger, and it gave me nightmares - I still think I'm pretty screwed up from that kind of stuff. Chris, you went to Sunnydale? Are you from the midwest? (I live in Georgia, but am originally from Southern Illinois/St. Louis area.) OK, one more comment. Talking about sleeping without a pillow Leigh, I remember not too many years back stock-piling all the coats in the house, coats I was ready to give to Salvation Army, but decided when we were hiding in the hills we might need as many as possible. Whew! Thanks for memories guys! Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Carol 2, Yes, I'm from the midwest. 8 years of Adventist gradeschool in Iowa, 4 years of Adventist boarding academey in MO (SA), 3 years of adventist college in NE (UC), and 3 years of Adventist University in MI (AU). Now I'm back in the Adventist getto town of Lincoln, NE :-) Being from the Midwest I used to lay awake at nights wondering how I could get all the way out to Colorado so I could hide in the mountains during the end times. It really bothered me a lot that we wern't closer to the mountains. I used to think maybe we could hide a car somwhere outside of town so we could drive to CO when the end came. I could never watch The Sound of Music without thinking about how someday we would have to leave our house and be hunted. I was a little jealous that the Von Trapps were so close to the Austrian Alps. :-) Yes, maybe the book was "Now". I read it at a very young age as well (why would you let your kids read that stuff???). | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Same reason you tell them vinager and tea and coffe are sins. Its a wonder we are not in the nut house after all that we have been through. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
I think that what makes me the saddest of all is that we were so afraid of Jesus' coming, because it meant torture and persecution. As kids were so indoctrinated in this crappola that we lived in fear of our neighbors. Yet, we were never told that thousands were dying every year for Jesus' name, and still are! Some how, in the SDA mentality, they don't count because they died for the wrong cause and worshiped Him on the "wrong" day. In His Grip! << Thomas | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Oh my goodness. My kids aren't old enough for Pathfinders yet so I had no idea!! So all that camping and learning about plants is to prepare for the end-times?? Much different focus than youth groups like AWANA that I attended as a child; I have great memories of that, thank the Lord! | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
My wife recently mentioned to me how she was always aware in Pathfinders that she was being prepared to be able to escape to the wildernenss in the end times. It suddenly struck me how right she was. Somehow as a kid I didn't realize that that's what it was all about, but in looking back I think there's a lot of truth to it. My kids go to AWANA now and I think it's great! They can still earn awards and badges and such, but it's all very Christ centered. The activities really help to equip them to not just know the Gospel, but share it with others. Really a great kids program I think. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I didn't put Pathfinders together with end times directly either, but that was there, wasn't it?! I think I was aware that Pathfinders was a sanctified way to become an army. (You know, the Lord's army!) My Pathfinder club was really big into marching and winning awards for its flawless formations. Military clothing, badges, sashes, awards--we were better than boy or girl scouts, and we were definitely training for the Real Thing, whatever that was! Besides edible plants, the insistence on knowing knots also plays into that survival mentality. Likewise the star honor--you could get your bearings in the mountains if you knew your constellations! And of course, I'll never forget the outdoor bonfire cooking we learned: How to do corn, potatoes, etc. with a small fire! I definitely do not remember much emphasis on the Bible in Pathfinders. In JMV we had some memory work, but not in Pathfinders. There we just had marching and survival! Colleen | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
I agree with what you say about AWANA. I remember how they challenged you to memorize bible verses to earn a reward or badge. My daughter actually went to AWANA with a neighborhood friend, but my husband didn't want her to get too involved in it and get away from the "Truth" | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Terryk, Don't you know Ellen said we were supposed to live in the country (near the hills) or something like that. They played the "Now!" tape in my church with the lights for 'vespers' one night when I was about 8. I always wished I would die so I wouldn't have to go through that. Pathfinders....what a joke! My kids are in AWANA too and we love it. The VBS is really cool too! They always have really fun productions at the end. Aren't we glad our kids can be "normal"? Mine refer to my mom as "Sabbath" instead of SDA or Adventist. They'll tell their friends, "Yeah, my grandma is Sabbath." I think it's cute and accurate since that is the main thing they are! | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I too often wished (and prayed) that I would die before the end times came. I definately did not want Jesus to come anytime soon.......how sad. I have often thought that this common sentiment explains why studies have shown that Adventist tend to be socially conservative yet statistically they by and large vote for social and political liberals. I think Adventist sometimes intentionally vote for politicians that stand in direct oposition to things Christians believe in because they are scared of electing someone that might pass a Sunday law and usher in the end times. Can you imagine intentionally voting for whatever candidate expresses the least Christian values in the hopes of staving off Christ's return? | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Actually, in many conferences, Pathfinder clubs are dying out. The Lake Tahoe pathfinder club has thirty kids and they are the largest club in the Northern Cal. conference---and something like the second biggest in the Central Cal. conference. When I was growing up, that was only an average size club. What is happening, apparently, is the intramural sports programs are resulting in no time left for Pathfinders. It's either 'sports' or 'Pathfinders'--and Pathfinders is not the fast track to popularity. It sounds like some of you folks had real nut cases for Pathfinder leaders. My club never had an emphasis on end time stuff that I remember. We did a lot of camping, military drills (actually had a retired Marine gunny teaching us drill for a couple of years), awards of various sorts (I'm still pretty good with a bow!), wilderness survival and backpacking which I still love. I do remember reading several books about the coming 'sunday law'--Project Sunlight was one of them. I guess I figured I was ahead of most folks since I could be deep in the Sierra Nevada's inside of half an hour (I grew up just below Sequoia National Park). What memories all of this brings back. All right, all of you who remember the Pathfinder song---here is a twisted version sung to the same tune!  Oh we are the Pathfinders weak, we fell in the creek last week, faithful as we swim along, in truth and nudity--- a message to tell to our parents, we fell in the creek last week, and here comes dad with a big fat belt for you and me! Anybody else have a twisted version of that song? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The mention of "country living" (or living in or near the wilderness) reminds me of a pretty interesting observation Richard made to a staunch SDA loved one of ours recently. Richard had always wanted to live in the mountains, but it had never been a practical option. This person to whom he was talking has nursed a similar dream but still feels thwarted because it hasn't worked out. Here's what Richard said, "Ever since I was born again, my desire to be far from people has disappeared. Now when I'm in a crowd I see them as people who need the gospel." The amazing thing is that Richard is right in his assessment of himself. He did used to want to avoid crowds, and now the presence of people truly does not bother him. We have remarked to each other that neither Jesus nor the apostles advocated moving away from the cities or avoiding populated areas. Rather, Jesus send his disciples into the "lost cities of Israel", and the apostles routinely went into the cities and preached. The only times we really see Jesus or his followers finding remote areas was for brief times of refreshment and communion with God. They went right back into "civilization" and spent themselves for the gospel. It came to me with another of those jolts of awareness: the background idea that we had to escape the cities came only from Ellen. Jesus' prophecy that Israel would flee Jerusalem was referring to future persecution when Jerusalem would be directly attacked. It was not a prophecy about believers in general finding safety outside the cities. It amazes me how much a part of the background "SDA noise" the idea was that we should be leaving the cities and learning to plant gardens in order to survive as civilization became increasingly wicked and as persecution began to be leveled at Sabbath-keepers! Wow! Jesus, not hiding, is our protection. And His Spirit can direct us if we need to escape particular situations. In the meantime, we are to represent Him to those with whom He has us living and working. Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
The College View Academy, an Adventist day school here in Lincoln, Nebraska, used to REQUIRE all students to endure a couple of days or a weekend in survivalism in order to graduate. This included sleeping in a type of fox hole each student was required to dig. Late one evening, while my daughter was at this survivalist camp, I got a phone call to rescue her and another student from further "roughing" it in the woods. I knew that I didn't have any desire to sleep in the dirt even though the Catholics would soon chase us through the streets and woods. So, I had immediate compassion on the plight of my daughter. They were most delighted that I agreed to come and take them home. How utterly relieved they were! By the way, she got to graduate without completing the survivalist camp anyway. Although still an SDA at the time, I really felt that such survivalist requirements were bazaar. Now I know they are! It takes a generous dose of humility to admit to your adult children that you taught them wrong. Sylvia and I have even asked our adult children to forgive us for sending them to legalistic, cultish schools. Let us continue to expose the deceptions of Seventh-day Adventism. Being secure in the salvation gifted by Jesus Christ is well worth the trauma of escape. May we be the type of former insiders that many others were in blazing the trail for us. Thank God, we are free at last! As the praise chorus so aptly declares, "I have closed the door. I can never return. I will never be the same again." Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I love that praise song, Dennis! Richard and I consider it sort-of our theme song. Speaking of eschatology (sort-of!), I just read an editorial in Perspective Digest, the official publication of the Adventist Theological Society. (My mom got this publication from somewhere and passed it on to us.) The editorial I read is by Jiri Moskala, the president of ATS, and as I read his explanation of how God will defeat Satan, I realized for the first time what the real problem is with the Adventist view of salvation. (Besides an incomplete atonement, that is!) The article tries to explain that God can't wield force against Satan or Satan would cry, "Foul!"; therefore Jesus became human because Satan has to be defeated by someone weaker than himself. "Satan can be overcome only by love, truth, justice, freedom, and order," Moskala insists. He cites the unanswerable questions of why God doesn't stop violence and tragedies and concludes that "Satan can be defeated only by someone who is weaker than he. Herein is found the reason for the incarnation!" He continues by saying the cross was about the Creator taking on "the frailties of humanity" because that was the only way he could defeat Satan. Jesus didn't come down from the cross, he says, "because the Great Controversy was not to be won by power. It was to be won by truthóTruth incarnate in the person of the suffering Savior." His entire editorial deals with God becoming weak so he could defeat Satan, and the cross was about a weak human triumphing over Satan. Here's the thing that stunned me: there is not one mention of the cross being about saving humanity. The focus of the cross is defeating Satan, not removing the curse of death and the power of sin from the universe. There is no mention of humanity being fatally flawed and in need of a Savior. It's all about a war beween God and Satan. I realize that as an Adventist, I did not see salvation as primarily about God resolving a cosmic wound so he could redeem his creations. Primarily salvation was about defeating Satan. While I had to accept Jesus to be saved, still Satan was the focal point of the battle. He was the enemy, not sin; sin was secondary. Satan had to be eliminated, not my own unrepentance. I realize that one reason salvation seems uncertain and insipid in Adventism is that there is no great focus on the depravity of humanity and our need to see our own need of a Savior. Rather, our attention was usually riveted on defeating Satan, not on repenting before a holy God. All this brings me back to a realization I had this week about the way Adventism taught the symbol of the scapegoat. SDAs say the scapegoat is Satan; he will carry our sins and be punished for them at the end of time. In Leviticus where the laws for the Day of Atonement are given, the scapegoat and the sacrificial goat were chosen by lots. The sacrifice was killed and its blood taken into the Most Holy Place for the atonement of the Most Holy Place. The scapegoat had the sins of the entire nation placed figuratively upon its head and was then led into the desert, thus removing the sins of the nation to a distant place from where they could never be brought back. The scapegoat, Leviticus says, was for atonement from sin. If you think about that symbolism and what it implies that Adventism taught that Satan is the scapegoat, then you get the implication that it was the luck of the draw that Jesus became our sacrifice while Satan became the scapegoat. That means that they were essentially equal, and Jesus just "got lucky" (sort-of!). Also, since the scapegoat was for the atonement of Israel from their sins, you have Satan playing the part of taking our sin into himself, or becoming sin, and bearing it for us, thus in part satisfying God's righteous demands and his wrath against sin. That role, however, is clearly Jesus' role. He became sin; He became a curse; He is the one God presented to us for an atonement, or a propitiation, for sin. Jesus is the one against whom God exhausted his wrath. Satan, in the total scheme of things, is not the central or even a major player in the drama of salvation. God planned to save us before the world was created. He planned that Jesus would be the Word incarnate. He loved us before we existed in time. God's gift of Jesus was not a clever way to defeat a powerful enemy; it was a gift of infinite love meant to ransom willful, wandering creations and to create in them new hearts that would love and honor him. The Adventist teaching really emphasizes to me the satanic deception and origin of Adventist beliefs (and EGWs visions!). I praise God for his eternal love, for Jesus' obedient embracing of the cross, and for the Holy Spirit's gift of a new heart! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I just had to add one mor thought to this idea of what Jesus' work of salvation was about. I've been reading "The Gospel For Real Life" by Jerry Bridges, and he points out that we can look at Christ's work for us from six different points of view. He: 1. Perfectly obeyed the Law of God 2. Satisfied the justice of God 3. Exhausted the wrath of God 4. Removed our sins from the presence of God 5. Redeemed us from the curse of God 6. Reconciled us to God Then he points out that "every work of Christ is directed toward God." Jesus obeyed his law, satisfied God's justice, propitiated God's wrath, removed our sins from God's holy prsence, redeemed us from God's curse on sinners, and reconciled our alienation from God. Not one thing Jesus did was directed toward Satan or was done becaue of Satan. It was ALL about God, and it was all about restoring us to oneness with Him. Wow, the subtle twisting of eternal truth that we took in almost with our mothers' milk is astonishing and appalling. I am so thankful God redeems the past and wastes nothing we've been through. The truth of Jesus' voluntary obedience and abasement takes my breath away, and the reality of God's eternal and unwavering love for even his rebellious and estranged creations is beyond comprehension. Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
It is interesting how Dr. James Dobson's "Focus on the Family" organization very strongly backs the Ten Commandment judges' monument... (See www.family.org for more on their viewpoints.) Over the years, I have been helped by many of Dobson's books, and yet now, I feel he stops short of the gospel's "good news"! Their web site article, 'The "Real" Ten Commandments Issue' explains their position (written by the new President of their organization, Don Hodel) and bemoans a ..."whittling away at these laws, like Sunday closings...". Although the article has many good points, where is the focus? Where is the explanation of this Old Covenant's "sign" and its' fullfillment in the ultimate REST... Jesus? Where is the mention of the Sinai "commands" being a PARTIAL revelation of God; a "schoolmaster" to lead us to Christ? Is this current fervor on the 10 Commandments a message to unify everyone with a "moral" code and not a heart regeneration? So also, to not offend the Jewish people? The emphasis heard often is the "Judeo-Christian value system" basis of our Government. This way of looking at the Ten Commandments may bring either a push for a return to "Sunday Laws"... or else, be the perfect soil for SDA's to plant their doctrine of the "true Sabbath" day, Saturday. Grace always, Cindy p.s. I actually have not heard Dobsons' speeches on this (my computer is currently unable to access the radio broadcast on the their site), so he may have given a more thorough explanation of the gospel of Christ. The above is in response to the printed article. At least this has been a conversation starter on spiritual issues. I just feel sad that so many top Christian leaders do not seem to understand the reality of the New Covenant's glory. |
