| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Cindy, I heard a portion of Dr. Dobson's speech, and there was NO presentation of the Gospel in the portion I heard. I agree with your comments concerning the Christian Right's bemoaning the whittling away of the moral foundation of this country being an opening for some kind of religio-political movement. The thing I am not sure of is how influenced I am by the religious liberty arguments that were pounded into my head from the days of my youth. It just seems odd to me that those who take the position that you and I have taken are in the extreme minority among Christians today. Are we that far out in left field, or is the "church" as we know it being exposed for what it has become? I really don't know the answers to these questions. Doug | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Doug, I have the same feelings--albeit fleeting--in realizing my beliefs seem to be, as you say, "in the "extreme minority among Christians today". Are we that mixed up on the New Covenant's fullfillment in Jesus? Being "sealed" and led now by the Holy Spirit in regards to "resting" (or not) on "holy" days (the 7th or 1st/Saturday or Sunday)? I just don't think so. In Christ, God has now promised to put His laws in our minds; writing them on the tablets of our hearts (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 & 10). I can't see one day as being more "holy" than another when Christ is our very "life"... (Colossians). And I love Paul in Phillipians: "If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic rightesousness, faultless." "But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, and so, somehow to attain to the resurrection from the dead." Now that I understand this, I could never go back to trying to figure out what proper observance of the Sinai 4th Commandment would be! Other than to see its' reality in Jesus' finished work for us. "Remembering" to enter HIS "Rest" every morning is my prayer. Grace always, cindy | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I live in Alabama. Most of the rhetoric we hear down here is that this is all about "them" not pushing Christians out of society altogether. That the 10 are on open display in the nations capital, yet the little people can't do it where they live. That the legislature can have opening prayer, but the schools can't, etc. The people feel like there is an attempt to block Christianity and Christians from having any affect on the government or society. And this is the big battle to stop that from happening. As far as that goes, the people pushing this have a genuine point, I think. Certainly satan would be only too happy to see Christians shut out of the government system. However, I do think the folks involved in this battle are missing the point. I suspect a part of this emphasis on the ten commandments has to do with the mistaken view that the "kingdom of God" is a social kingdom, the perfect pattern for human society. And that Christians are to press for some kind of social perfection in our society to prepare the way for the second coming. (The most extreme example of this I read somewhere...not connected in any way to what is currently happening...was that ALL who break laws should be put to death and those who are not Christians should have no rights under the laws of our land!) Real change in our society is not going to happen by instituting laws that force the name of God to be in the public arena. It can only come in any society by the gospel taking over the hearts of men. The kingdom of God iinvolves the reign of God in man's hearts. Society can only follow. God doesn't reign in man, society reflects it. I'm always baffled by watching the great Christian battles to get prayer in the public schools, to stop abortion, to display the 10, rights of churches, etc. All those are things that should have some battle attending them. Yet all the while satan has been very effectively changing the minds of people around the world to accept the perversion of the homosexual lifestyle as a natural thing and euthanasia as being a wonderful kindness. And, in relation to the emotional effort put into the other areas, these two have been largely ignored until fairly recently! It's weird. | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Lydell, Good to hear from a real Alamaban! You have some good points. It is rather crazy that other Government entities have prayers and engravings scattered in various halls...and also our money states "In God we Trust." Also, do you know who the newest Senate "Chaplain" is? The one who opens the sessions with prayer? He is the first African-American to hold that position, a man named Barry Black. And.... he is the first Seventh-day Adventist to hold that poistion. (Rather interesting in light of EGW's "last-days" scenario!) I agree with you; the change must come from God, with "the gospel taking over the hearts of men. The kingdom of God involves the reign of God in man's heart." grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I was listening to Focus on the Family last Monday, I believe. Dobson had recorded it on a Sunday so it would be as current as possible regarding the monument debate. He started by saying that they take keeping the "sabbath...Sunday" as a day for the Lord, but felt the issues were important and they wanted to be as current as possible for Monday's broadcast. I almost choked... I haven't heard anyone I personally recognized calling Sunday the sabbath until he did. I've heard people saying it was "their" rest day or sabbath, but not "the" sabbath. I debated sending him a letter to ask him if he was aware of what he had done.... Not just because "the" sabbath was Saturday, but by calling Sunday the sabbath I fear he opens a door for SDAs to pull people in. When I saw him on TV at the monument site shaking hands with people, I was so concerned for the message it would be sending. I know he is concerned about having Christianity stamped out of the public square. I just don't think the 10 = Christ or Christianity. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
It actually makes me a little sick to my stomach (literally) when I hear Christians talking about the necessity of "keeping THE Sabbath". It bothers we when Saturday sabbatarians do it, but I think it bothers me even more when Sunday sabbatarians do it. In the case of the former, I can at least see a certain consistency in their OT based argument even if I disagree, but in the case of the latter it makes no sense at all to me. Sunday is so obviously not the "Sabbath" referred to in the fourth commandment that I find it painful to hear people suggest it is. And you're right, it opens them up wide to SDA arguments. One shocking example of this is R.C. Sproul in His book "Essential Truths of the Christian Faith". I love Sproul and also think that "Essential Truths" is very good thoughout. However, there is one chapter on the Sabbath. Unbelievably Sproul argues that the Sabbath is still in force today by using the tried and true SDA technique of calling it a creation ordinance! He seems to have no problem at all then reapply this "creation ordinance" to a diffent day of the week and suggesting that how it is kept may be somewhat more relaxed then what is outlined in the OT. He produces no NT texts showing that the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant. He produces no NT texts showing that Christians are to keep the Sabbath. He produces no NT texts showing that Sabbath has been transferred from the seventh day to the first day. He produces no NT texts stating that that it's okay to modify the OT ordinances for Sabbath obwervance. Despite this complete lack of scriptural authority he still seems to feel okay with call this a Christian essential despite the fact that all Christians do not agree on this point. It blows my mind. How could an otherwise extremely intelligent and trustworthy exegete (who I respect very much) have such a huge blind spot on this issue? It's no wonder that people get sucked in by Adventism. If you start with R.C. Sproul's unfounded and unsupported premise, believe it to be bible truth because some pastor said so, then the only logical and consistent course is to begin keeping the 7th day sabbath in EXACTLY the same way the Jews did under the Old Covenant. And why stop at the Sabbath? If we're going to keep one OC ordinance we better keep all the law? It's really a slippery slope and I cannot understand why someone of Sproul's caliber cannot see the inconsistency and lack of scriptural support for his position. Chris | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I used to listen to a radio station in a city where I used to live that regularly connected the term "Sunday" to "the Lord's Day." For example, if there was going to be a particular program on Sunday, they would say, "be sure to listen to 'xx' on Sunday, the Lord's Day." They would never say the word "Sunday" by itself. It used to drive me crazy. It seemed that they were placing as much emphasis on a day as Adventists. It certainly gives credence to the Adventist's view of the final conflict. I also have heard prominent radio personalities attempt to make the same connections that Chris mentioned. D. James Kennedy is another one who I've heard do the same thing. I've noticed that those who do it tend to be very much fundamentalist's in their theology. As an aside, I believe people like R.C. Sproul have become to educated for their own good. He has taken the Gospel, which even a child can understand, and complicated it beyond belief. When ever I hear him speak, I get the sense that he is talking to a bunch of academians, rather than preaching the Gospel. Its hard to believe that someone could actually come to a saving understanding of the Gospel through his presentations, although they certainly could be intellectually stimulated. He is one of the few radio personalities that I simply cannot listen to (along with the program "Concerned Women for America). Doug | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Melissa, You are very astute to note that ì. . . by calling Sunday the sabbath I fear he opens a door for SDAs to pull people in.î That is exactly the doctrinal weakness exploited by Adventists from the very beginning of the denomination. We must understand that, in the mid-1800ís, most Protestant denominations in the Northeast U. S. were quite legalist in nature. This occurred due to the major influence that Puritans exerted on other denominations from the beginnings of British settlement of the colonies. Almost all declared the Ten Commandments applicable to Christians. Because they did not recognize the special relationship of the Ten Commandments, that is that they constitute a specific, temporary Covenant between God and the Israelites, they could not conceive that they were no longer in force. Adventists, of course, took things even further by expanding the application of the Ten Commandments before the Exodus as well as after the Crucifixion. While it is true that some concepts described in the Ten Commandments may have predated Sinai, the ìlegal documentî known as the Ten Commandments cannot have existed before Sinai since it applies only to the Israelites and their descendants. If people would just read Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 4 and 5 with an open mind, there should be little room to doubt that this is the case. The same goes for after the Crucifixion. The problem is, for Adventists and other legalist denominations, it just ìdoes not make sense.î Therefore, they reject what the scriptures say. Adventists, from the early days with William Miller, were, at their core, a ìpredatoryî denomination. Their major strategy for ìevangelismî was to ìstealî from other denominations. Of course, there was always room for the non-Christian, but this has never been the primary focus of their recruitment efforts, even to this day. To be sure, their efforts in the ìthird worldî countries tend to garner more non-Christians. However, there is much evidence that this happens more from a desire to preempt other denominations from gaining members. There has been a constant struggle between legalist and non-legalist doctrine from the days of the Apostles. I am afraid that history bears witness to the destructive aspects of legalist doctrine. From the Galatians, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Salem witch trials, to Adventist doctrine, to Judge Roy Moore, the struggle continues. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I just want to clarify that my last statement is my own personal preference, and is in no way meant to offend anyone who might be edified by those programs. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I like Dr. Dobson and I have written him on his Sunday "Sabbath" references in the past with no response. I recently debated with a Presbyterian pastor about Sunday not being the Sabbath. Just as difficult as debating with an SDA. I think the problem lies in people believing what they are taught instead of searching the scriptures for themselves. My own pastor believed this as he was taught in Baptist Seminary but now understands that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. I just believe it is only revealed by the Holy Spirit to those who want truth. God deals with people that seek Him. Famous preachers can get up and preach their whole lives and never know God in an intimate way. I've been thinking a lot about what the RCC church is doing in Europe-trying to stamp out evangelicals...Baptists included, that aren't "traditional" as they call it. I think it is possible that the RCC may have something to do with the AC, possibly the false prophet, but the main thing that keeps coming to mind is that true christianity is based on love, not forced. True christians don't force anyone to follow Jesus, they never have. Satan has used false religions to serve his purpose for centuries, why should the end be any different? The Muslims want everybody to be Muslim, the Catholics want everyone to be Catholic, the SDA's want everone to be SDA. Christians don't care what you are, they just want you to know Jesus. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
My last pastor (he retired) would say all of the 10 commandments still apply today, except the 4th, which "just doesn't". That was convincing. The next pastor came in and started with the 10, but then talked about how they were minimal in comparison to what Christ taught...from don't commit adultery to don't lust, from don't murder to don't be angry...etc. But it was still beginning with the 10. I don't know WHY people hang on to them so tightly, unless it's just following what they've been taught. Besides, I can feel good about the fact I haven't murdered anyone, stolen anything or committed adultery. But if you want to know if I hate my brother, or lusted after someone...that may be more challenging. But from my own personal experience, it's just ignorance. Plain and simple. I also wrote sent an email to Focus on the family, but am highly doubtful I will get a response. I just don't think they'll devote the time to study it out. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Melissa. Two years ago a fairly prominent administrator/speaker from Focus on the Family came to our school and held an evening meeting for parents. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name. To my consternation, my then-principal, who was himself a former Catholic and shared my convictions about Adventism being cultic, came to me and asked if Adentism was changing. This particular Focus on the Family representative had talked with him (at the principal's initiative) about his opinion of Adventists. The FOTF person said that today's Adventists were different from the old ones. They no longer, he said, upheld EGW or the cultic practices of the old church, and they were authentic evangelicals with a different worship day. I was incensed, as you can imagine, and told my principal that Adventism is no different today than it was in the past. Although the PR machine is hugely effective, there is no "reformed Adventism". Every Adventist is baptized into the 27 Fundamentals. Every Adventist, whether they admit it or not, have their names on a baptismimal certificate that proclaims EGW to be a continuing and authoritative source of truth, that proclaims the IJ, and that proclaims the seventh-day Sabbath and soul sleep. Focus on the Family, for whatever reason, sees Adventism as legitimate. I don't think they will be swayed by pleas to study the new covenant. In fact, I either heard Dobson say or read in one of his books that he historically (as a kid, I believe, and maybe even now) attended the Nazarene church. While Nazarenes are Christian, they are VERY legalistic and law-based. I knew a former Nazarene woman who used to tell me, when we left Adventism, that her leaving the Nazarene church was a journey quite parallel to mine with Adventism. I share the frustration of watching people focus on keeping Christianity before people while apparently losing their focus on the power and freedom of the gospel. I just believe that when people focus on causes, however just, they usually become distracted from the main thing--the changing power of Jesus himself. No matter how noble the cause, if it doesn't promote the gospel, it's probably not doing much good. Clinging to one's "right" to worship and proclaim Jesus is one thing; Paul did that all the time. Promoting symbols of Judao-Christianity, on the other hand, probably misses the point. I do pray that God will protect me from deception and from my own ego and agenda. I praise Him for being sovereign, even over these religious liberty issues! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Sabra, the last paragraph of your above post is awsome. I had never thought of it that way and now thanks to you I forever now will. My alltime favorite Christian radio program is Unshackled. Oh, I L-O-V-E that program, the Pacific Garden Rescue Mission. What a program!!!!! I have my Luther's Catechism right here as I refer to it often and I guess Martin had a handle on the New Covenent without calling it such as he refers to our Sabbath rest in Jesus. I like the Evengecial Lutheran (which I am a member of) and I like attending mot Lutheran churches and I like the United Church of Christ. Please, don'yt confuse the United Church of Christ with the Church of Christ as they are two very different denominations. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Melissa and others who have seen conflict with Dobson's ministry, Shortly after our son-in-law began his involvement with SDA I spoke with my sister-in-law about it, and as you all know it is very hard to get the impact of what SDA actually is unless you are living it 24/7. She also had difficulty and thought that possibly our son-in-law felt more secure with this chruch since it is small and because he is the leader of the home my daughter should look at it in that perspective. She with these assumptions in mind, after my telling her that I was of the inclination that it was false teaching, contacted Dr. Dobson's hotline and asked is the SDA chruch a cult. They of course said no. Now here again I can understand if a person is not in close proximity that it would be very hard to assertain this fact without serving injustice to the accused church. But my sister-in-law was also told by her sister that she had heard it was in fact a cult and with many things that I have shared with her she began to have somewhat of this inclination. Her statements concerning the fact Dobson does not declare it a cult was very strong and she still is not if the understanding why he would not know if in fact it was. I then in November of 2002 sent an email to Dr. Dobson(of which I will add at this time had always had a high reguard for him). Upon receiving a reply back(which I would like to make clear was not directly from him but from someone doing his contact work, but made it perfectly clear these were Dr. Dobson's ideas) I was very disheartend as I had barred my soul as to the seriouness of what had happened in my son-in-law and daughter's lives. Melissa and Colleen I will send you an actual part of email I received as I do not want to break any laws that I might not know about. The just of the converstion stated Dr. Dobson has friends in the SDA chruch and for that reason he could never elude to anything as I had mentioned. ( I would like to add here that the fact he has friends makes it all harder to understand why he, a knowledge man of the cloth, would not see thru their deceptive tactics). I then wrote and asked him if he understood that they taught IJ and did he understand it and his email back stated that there were some differences of theology and diet but nothing that would constitute again his calling SDA a cult. IJ was never addressed. My sister-in-law felt like I should contact them again and say in no uncertain words that I feel it is a false religion, but you see I had already done that and it had made no difference. I fear there is more involved here than what meets the eye. I might add I heard him speak once and state that he had to make a choice about something that had come up on Sunday and he chose to go to church making the point loud and clear that is was a day to keep for the Lord. This was very discouraging for me to hear this. I know that all you will understand of what I speak, not that it is wrong to make going to church on Sunday a good habit but that it cannot be a way to win approval from God, since thru the blood of Jesus Christ we have that approval and all we need do is accept it. Praise God for Rain and Cool weather, Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Carol, thank you for sharing that experience. I'm looking forward to seeing the correspondence you mentioned. BTW, I believe that the last name of the man who came to our school from FOTF was London. (Does that ring a bell?) I agree that there is something hidden that keeps people from really seeing the truth re: Adventism. I suspect that sometimes that "something" is a misunderstanding of the role of the law in a Christ-follower's life. Sometimes, I think there may be political or monetary entanglements, and sometimes it's just plain ignorance and a subconscious desire not to know the reality about the church because it would come between people and their Adventist friends. In some communities Adventists have a very high profile and a great public image, and it just seems potentially estranging and socially damaging for Christians to take a stand against Adventism when Adventists do such visible acts of public service (i.e. hospitals, schools, clinics, health seminars, etc.). I am convinced that most Christians do not perceive the spirit of deception which underlies Adventism. They hear the right words, see humanitarian and even selfless acts, and they just can't believe deception lies behind those "right words". Christians very often do not see that ultimately Adventists' reason for doing those good works (besides ensuring their own salvation) is to convince others to become Adventist. Their proseletysing is subtle but powerful, and most people don't realize they're being deceived. I have to keep reminding myself that God is sovereign, and my job is not to fight evil. That's God's job. My job is to proclaim Christ and to speak truth, not to figuratively "go to battle" with those who don't "get it". But I do believe it's important to speak the truth when appropriate! I praise God that he is calling honest people to himself, and I continue to pray that the truth about Adventism will be known. Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Amen to the rain...since we are in the same neck of the woods, Carol. We had almost 8" with a 20 degree drop in temperature. Thank God indeed! I had heard Dobson was a Nazarene some time ago, but had not heard it from him directly, so didn't want to pass hearsay. I do not personally know what Nazarene's teach, but when I called B on telling me SDA was like the southern baptist church, he said he was thinking of the Nazarene church. It seems the evangelical world doesn't know how to classify Adventism. Now I don't know what to think of Focus on the Family either. | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Colleen, I completely agree with your above analysis of Adventism, Colleen. Every thing you wrote is true... Adventism has a well-respected presence in my area of the country (hospitals, community outreach programs, private schools, etc.). It is a challenge to know how to address the error of the DOCTRINES without seeming to be critical or rejecting of the people themselves, most who I know being very kind and giving. And, as far as DOING good deeds, far beyond me, it seems. I think focusing on the all-sufficiency of Jesus--HE is ENOUGH!--and being now led by His Spirit... not a "law"...is what seems to be best for me. (As you say, "the role of the law in a Christ-followers life"). As far as 'Focus on the Family', I think Dobson must feel a kinship with the high "morals" espoused by Adventism... Their organization's magazine recently offered a poster of the 'Ten Commandments' following an article by R.C. Sproul on the importance of keeping them. The "London" man you mentioned was probably H.B. London who is James Dobson's first cousin and has worked with him. grace always, cindy | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Melissa, the Nazarenes have their roots in the 'Holiness' movement. One of their teachings that is exactly like SDA'ism is that one can become 'holy' and keep the law perfectly. Try putting the term 'holiness movement' into a search engine and see what pops up. Bill | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Colleen, I understand totally what you say: I think there may be political or monetary entanglements, and sometimes it's just plain ignorance and a subconscious desire not to know the reality about the church because it would come between people and their Adventist friends. I think this very thing has happened here with my church and thier reluctance to get between this thing and try and correct the error that has been taught my son-in-law, thus they tell my daughter that they think it can work; him going there and her going here. Maybe it can for some but for her it has not and she feels compelled to move away from deception and try to bring herself into a closer walk with God by not always having this hang over her head. I just praise God that He was there for me when I listened to tapes and gave me an unrest like nonother and as soon as I got into my Bible I was at peace. I do not understand why this could not happen for all but again I must say I never knew there was such a verse as Exodus 4 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. And as I could not understand the reason that God would do this it was revealed to me as I read my Bible thru in a year in verse Exodus 7:. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, So now I do not understand why some will not listen but I have to trust God that He is in control and is about to bring about some miraculous sign and wonder just like He did for Moses. Waiting is hard though, Carol | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Yes, Colleen, what you say above is so true about the sda using the same words and terms but these words and terms have different meanings for the sda that regular Christian. This is also true with the lds and the jw. That is why it is so hard communicating with sda's, jw's and lds's because the words are the same but they have a totally different meaning. |
