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Chris (Chris)
Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My SDA sister just sent me some links to two websites she states are run by Amazing facts (apparently she uses the studies on these sites for conducting bible studies with potential proselytes). The one site was the primary Amazing facts site, the other www.bibleuniverse.com I have never heard of before and says nothing about Amazing Facts at all. In fact, it says nothing about the SDA denomination at all, but it is obviously Adventist as there is a section on the tree angles message, much focus on the 10 commandments, and "probation" (tied to the IJ). The lack of any denominational identifier seems misleading to me. But here's what really blew me away. Check out these paragraphs from one of the featured articles. This is out and out perfectionistic salvation by works heresy:

"But immediately after Adam sinned and before the sentence was fully executed, God introduced the plan of salvation through the seed of the woman and gave Adam a new trial (Genesis 3:15). This second probation was conditioned upon acceptance of a Saviour who would bear man's penalty through His own substitutionary death. A new hope was set before Adam and all his posterity through this second arrangement, but it did not alter the consequences of failing the first probation.

That brings us to a very crucial question. How could God uphold His integrity by carrying out the penalty of the first failure, and still hold out the offer of a new life to everyone through another probation? God met that puzzling dilemma in such a simple way that we are amazed. He would let men live their limited life span and then die, regardless of whether they did good or evil. That first death would take care of the Adamic consequences of failing the first test. Then, let all men be raised from that first death, into which they fell through no fault of their own, and let them stand before God to answer for their own personal sins, for which they are responsible. Then their destiny would be determined on the basis of the second probation (between birth and the first death), and how they met the conditions of salvation through Christ.

If they are found guilty of personally failing the second test they will suffer the same penalty that Adam faced - death. In this case, however, there will be no further probation extended, and their death will be the second death - final, eternal extinction."

Chris
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, my goodness, that brings back so many feelings from my childhood. I remember sort-of knowing all that but never really understandingn it as a kid.

I cannot believe how confusing and depressing and desperate it is. We have a second probation, and it's up to us whether or not we make it through. And of course, none of us can do that. It's just hopeless--and then you die without knowing for sure whether or not you'll squeak through by the skin of your teeth, so to speak.

I remember so well my feelings of franticness and fear that kept me awake at night when I was a teenager.

Praise God for sending us Jesus--praise God for the cross and the resurrection and for "It is finished!"

Colleen
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uhh....one correction to my post....there is NOT a section on "tree angles" (sounds like something someone in forestry would be interested in...."Hey Herb, the trunk of that tree is leaning at a really bad angle, maybe we should cut it down before it falls over"). There is, however, a section on the "Three Angels". Sorry for any confusion. :-)

Chris
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One other thought I just had. The piece sited above states,

"He would let men live their limited life span and then die, regardless of whether they did good or evil. That first death would take care of the Adamic consequences of failing the first test."

If this is so, then what about those who "are alive and remain" and are caught up without experiencing death. Presumably they would get away without paying for Adamic sin. This is all so convoluted I can't hardly believe it.

Chris
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, isn't that just all so crazy? I just read it and go, hu? I mean, how do they even explain this to new converts and how do they get it? I'd be saying, "So, Jesus died for what?"

Praise God for gettin us outta there!
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a little story of a few years ago that sounds strange to tell people, but it is so honest. I was on the internet looking at SDA sites and there was a site to "teach" people about God. It was very simplistic/childish, and condescending to anyone who had any Biblical knowledge, but for those who were ignorant of scripture, it could sound very convincing. I had chosen to take an "online course" in hell. It's kindof like other online courses trying to be interactive, asking questions, referring to scripture, then answering the questions giving the "appropriate" answer to the question. I made screen shots of it because I wanted to be able to refer to it later, but what happened later that night scared me so much I never opened the pictures or returned to the site. I think I actually made it through 20-30 screens when I quit.

That night, I was asleep in bed. I thought it was a dream, and then I didn't know. I heard so loudly in my head some voice saying it was okay to kill myself because hell wasn't real. This person had showed me "from the Bible" that hell wasn't real. So, I didn't need to struggle with all these things I had been battling. If the worst thing that could happen was that I ceased to exist, wasn't that what I really wanted anyway? To be rid of the struggles and pain? To be out of people's way for good? I felt as though something were literally sitting on my chest trying to convince me to just end it all. It was a thought that had come before because of the hardship I was living in (my daughter is retarded and caring for her is ... difficult) and I was just SOOOO tired of dealing with it, but I was too scared to actually do it...but it was an "option" when I was trying to figure out how to make things better. Anyway, I felt such a literal, physical struggle to get this away from me. I don't remember now if I read the Bible or what, but I know I had to get up and turn the lights on. I prayed and reminded myself that no one "of God" would try to talk me into suicide, which meant it could only be the enemy.

It was so real. I thought it must be some sort of demonic oppression, and for the first time, I felt physical proof of demonic influence in my life. I was absolutely convinced that the "Bible" study I had taken was actually influenced by demons instead. If I could never dis-prove a single SDA teaching, that whole experience let me know there was something definately wrong with the teachings. I know it sounds so corn-ball to read the story and when I've heard people relay similar stories, I think they're wacky. Or I did, until it happened to me. Was it all a dream, that was just really vivid? Or could I really not breath for something sitting on my chest? I personally think I was awakened by what I thought was a dream but actually very real. It also reminded me of stories I had heard of people doing ouiji (spelling?) boards and (I can't spell it either...but phonetically) say-onces (?). It didn't seem so far off then. (Funny thing is, I've never had a suicidal thought after that...)

But it's since made me a little leary of what I read, even when studying for "research". I tell the story to say "be careful out there". The battle we fight is spiritual and it's real. Don't get caught unaware. It still makes me pause from time to time....
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, thank you for sharing your story. I believe you.

You are right; the battle we are in is a spiritual battle. I've come to believe the SDA view of hell (as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses' view) is demonic. If evil can cause people to believe that God is not ultimately just, if he does not have wrath toward intractable evil, then our worship of him will be compromised and half-hearted.

When I began to believe that God was just, that he would destroy evil (not just allow it to self-destruct while he sat passively by, watching it kill itself and then quickly burn up the evidence), my respect and awe and gratitude toward him deepened significantly. The Bible is right; humans are to stand in fear of God's wrath. We as Christ-followers are not in danger of it, but unrepentant humanity SHOULD fear God's wrath.

I know that satan does his best to attack us at the points in our souls where we have the deepest unhealed wounds and fears. It's kind-of like rats at a garbage dump: you'll always find the rodents where there's refuse to eat. When things are cleaned up, the rodents tend to leave.

One of the things I have grown to love about Jesus is that he heals our wounds, even the oldest and deepest of them. He helps us to bring our feelings to the surface where we can invite Him to take those old memories and to heal us, placing his Spirit where those raw spots had been. Jesus absolutely wastes NOTHING that has ever happened to us, and he redeemes EVERYTHING we submit to him.

Your caution is also good, Melissa. God does ask us to filter what we put into our minds. Whatsoever things are true, honest, pure, lovely, of good report--think on these things.

Praise God that Satan is already a defeated enemy. He can rattle his chains and harrass us, but he cannot have us when we belong to Jesus! More and more I see the wisdom of the line in the Lord's Prayer, "Deliver us from evil." That is a prayer of spiritual warfare, I realized with a start one morning as I drove to school. Jesus told us to pray for protection from evil.

He also told us that nothing can take us from his and his Father's hands. Praise him that he is a God of truth. He will always lead us toward him, toward healing, toward surrender, toward knowing what is real. He is Lord of all--even each of us! Like Paul, we may be harrassed and troubled and misunderstood and burdened, but still to know Jesus is the greatest of all joys and the only true confidence we can claim.

I am so grateful to Him!

Colleen
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, your retorical question "So Jesus died for what?" hits the nail on the head. Under the cultic idea of a second probation, Jesus did not die save us forever and remove our sins as far from us as the east is from the west. Under this view, Jesus lied when He said, "It is finished". In fact, it was only just the beginning. Under this view the only thing Christ died for was to give us a second chance to live more perfectly than Adam did. He died to give us one last shot at a probationary period. This view so diminshes the beauty and grace of the cross that it is a wonder that followers of this view feel any deep heartfelt love for the Saviour at all. I can say from experience that deep heartfelt fear is probably more common.

Melissa, very powerful story. When I was first studying my way out of Adventism I began to have Bible studies with my friends to show thwm what I was finding. We were going to see our friends Sat. morning at church (we were still attending an SDA church at that time) then meet in the evening to study. Friday evening I was hit by the deepest darkest depression I have ever experienced. There really was no trigger, it just rolled in like a wave of blackness. By Sat. morning I could barely get out of bed. As silly as this sounds, just walking or standing was an effort. I was so far down in a mental hole that it felt physical. Everything just felt so heavy. I struggled to church, but felt unable to sing or participate in worship. Our friends noticed and began praying for me. That evening they came over and huddled around me with their hands on me as they each took turns praying. The darkness lifted and blew away like it had never been there. I've been depressed before (although maybe not to that extent), but it's always taken me a few days to kick the funk. This smothering oppression was gone in minutes and did not return. I can't explain it other than to chalk it up to spiritual warfare. Call me crazy, overly suggestible, or mentally imbalanced, but I found the expereince difficult to explain in purely clinical terms.

Chris
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I, too, believe your stories (of this presence of a spiritual darkness being a very real thing at times).

I try to remember each morning to pray for the blood of Christ to cover my home and family...that the Holy Spirit would be a protection against the "spiritual forces of evil". (Ephesians 6:12).

And I know He promises to do so...even if I forget that prayer some morning!

Having the Holy Spirit as my motivator and looking for Jesus' Presence in ALL of my circumstances, EVERY day, is the place where I want to be...

grace always,
cindy
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't believe I ever heard this idea of a "second probation" when I was in Adventism. Is this something new or a regional thing?

Doug
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, I don't believe this is new at all. Did you ever hear the phrase, "When probation closes...."? This has always been closely linked to the IJ. We are now in probation as Jesus studies the books in Heaven to see if we merit Heaven. Once He finishes, the books are closed, and probation closes. After probation closes there will be no hope for salvation. This happens at approximately the same time that Sunday laws are passed and a great tribulation comes upon Sabbath keepers. Of course, if you die prior to all this, then for you, probation has closed.

Chris
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand the thing about "probation cloisng." I guess the thing that I don't remember hearing is that the "first death" was penance for the Adamic sin, and thus was the close of the "first probation. Do I have that right?
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's how I understand.......I with you here. I don't believe I've ever heard that the first death is penance for Adamic sin either. That is a new one to me as well.

Chris
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 508
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last monthg in Fresno. Ca. a massacure took place. Apparently a man murdered 9 of his children and geandchildren, some of the grandchildren even being children he fathered from his older daughters. His 19 year old son has made numerous heart-breaking statements on the news that the family is SDA and his dad was/is a very good man, etc. In the Review that came out a few weeks ago, or was it the
Pacific Union Recorder, the SDA officials have come out with an official statement that this man and his family are not SDA and included in this statemant is that the SDA church is a "mainstream evenglical Christian denomination". I may be wrong, the word "evenglical" may not be in the disclaimer, however the rest that I wrote is. I intend to photocopy this statement and mail it to Colleen. It's very deceiving. And, I have a friend whose daughter told us she has friends who attend the SDA church that this man says he goes to and her friends say he does. Who is to say? All I know is that the statement given by the SDA offical is was off the beaten path and I will send a copy of it to Colleen.

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