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Archive through September 28, 2003Leigh20 9-28-03  8:03 am
Archive through October 22, 2003Another_Carol20 10-22-03  12:38 pm
Archive through December 10, 2003Melissa20 12-10-03  9:20 am
Archive through February 20, 2004Insideoutsider20 2-20-04  9:53 am
Archive through March 10, 2004Dennis20 3-10-04  10:18 pm
Archive through March 16, 2004Steve20 3-16-04  11:23 pm
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Archive through May 27, 2004Hoytster20 5-27-04  11:06 am
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Ladylittle
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Username: Ladylittle

Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Golden Rule was one of the memory verses in SDA Church School and often used in settling arguments between siblings at home growing up "Now would you like it if he did that to you? . . ." Got pretty interesting when you had a little 7 year old, for example, saying "yup, I would like it if he pulled my hair, so I have the right to do it to him!"

I think that the golden rule can end up majorly misused if Jesus isn't the one guiding you in how to follow it. Some people will use the logic that "If I was wrong I would want people to use any means of making sure I was straightned out, therefore any sort of abuse is legitimate in trying to straighten out other people who, in my opinion, are wrong" It would seem that could lead to another inquisition.

Hope you're all having a great day!

Mary
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hoyster,
I had to learn it as a memory verse in SDA school, but I do not remember how it was applied. I remember my Mom used to say "how would you like ... to do that to you?" I do not remember how I responded to that.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 265
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also learned the Golden Rule as a child. It was a memory verse, and it became my way of screening my decisions in many cases.

I've finally realized that in many cases, what the other person needs is not necessarily what I would need. What they need is what THEY need--and that might be quite different from what I would want under the same circumstances. Further, sometimes I have assumed that what I want from someone else is what they would want from me and have tried to deliver that--but I have incorrectly assessed their feelings.

So, although the Golden Rule kept me from being harsh or vindictive sometimes, it really didn't help me to understand another person's feelings when my own feelings were distraught. The Golden Rule has made more sense to me since I've started to believe that Jesus knows what the other needs, and I can ask Him for wisdom.

Mary, I remember having feelings/responses like the 7-year-old response you mentioned above!


BTW, Hoytster, I am sorry you felt a bit misundertood above. I did not want to cause you to feel like withdrawing! As always, you bring up really good, thoughtful topics, and they make me think. Please know that we always like seeing you here! I continue to pray for you and your kids.

Colleen
Carol_2
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Username: Carol_2

Post Number: 156
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Hoyster....don't leave - you are a great contributor to this forum and well loved. One of the things I love about this website is that we're all able to express our thoughts/beliefs/feelings, etc., and not feel judged or argue!

Love and prayers to you all! Carol
Hoytster
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Username: Hoytster

Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please don't feel like I'm going to take my ball and go home. I'm not that way, and this forum has become important to me. Thanks for your kind comments, regardless. :-)

Re the Golden Rule being a memory verse: Yes, but just another memory verse among hundreds, right? For me, for good theological reasons or merely because some Sunday School teacher really impressed me, the Golden Rule is a central, guiding principle. Some people ask "What would Jesus do?" My answer to that question is "Jesus would apply the Golden Rule", then I go ahead and try to do so myself.

I will acknowledge that application of the GR is not always straightforward. It is invaluable, though, to go through the mental steps of putting yourself in the other person's position, and trying to see what they would want. It is most of all not selfish. The Levite and the priest who walked past the injured man were keeping themselves pure, but what Jesus wanted was what the Good Samaritan did -- he did what he would have wanted someone to do for him, if he was lying injured by the road. The master became furious when he forgave the servant, then the servant refused to forgive HIS debtor, NOT doing as he had the master do unto him. Jesus was angry at the Pharisees for decrying healing on the Sabbath, when they clearly (ostensibly) would have desired to be cured regardless of the day, had they been inflicted. No one wants to be shunned, and Jesus did not shun the tax collector. Jesus failure to condemn the harlot is a simple application of the fact that He would not want to be condemned. Judge not lest ye be judged, or, do not judge others, as you would not want to be judged yourself. Jesus IS love, and love IS loving your neighbor as yourself, and the way to do that (in my world) is to put yourself in your neighbor's place and do what you neighbor would want. What else does "love your neighbor as yourself" mean?

OK, rant over. I'll agree to disagree on this one.

--------

On another topic, I chanced across this and thought I'd share it. It's an interesting question. From http://www.gotquestions.org/sda.html:

<quote>
Question: "Are Seventh Day Adventists Christians?"

Answer: There seem to be different "degrees" of Seventh Day Adventism. Some Seventh Day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than believing that worship should be held on Saturday and that the Saturday Sabbath should still be observed. If these are the only differences, then yes, a person could be a Seventh Day Adventist and still be a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, some Seventh Day Adventists believe in much more than a Saturday Sabbath / worship day. Seventh Day Adventists have been known to believe in: the annihilation of the wicked instead of an eternal hell, that believers who die enter a state of soul sleep, and that a person must observe the Saturday Sabbath in order to be saved. Other problems with some Seventh Day Adventists are: belief in Ellen G. White, the founder of SDA, as a true prophet of God even though many of her "prophecies" failed to come true - and - that Jesus entered a second phase of His redemptive work on October 22, 1844, as "prophesied" by Hiram Edson. Although it conflicts with their official doctrinal statement, some Seventh Day Adventists have been known to teach that Jesus was a created being and/or Michael the archangel - similarly to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

So, are Seventh Day Adventists Christians? Should a Christian attend a SDA church? Due to the potential doctrinal issues mentioned above, I would strongly encourage believers to not get involved in Seventh Day Adventism. Yes, a person can be an advocate of Seventh Day Adventism and still be a believer. At the same time, there are enough potential issues to make attending a SDA church questionable at best.
</quote>

Comments?

- Hoytster
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hoytster, The Golden Rule: In my SDA growing up experience it seems like Jesus, forgiveness, kindness and sharing is very much promoted until around age 9 or 10, around when a child would transfer from Primary Sabbath School to Junior Sabbath School and in the SDA day schools from around 4th grade to 5th grade. It is the Junior Sabbath School or in the 5th grade that the SDA church, Sabbath School cirriculum and the SDA private school cirriculam transfers from love, Jesus, the golden rule, kindness and that sort of stuff to teaching law, EGW, church doctrine such as the state of the dead, not drinking coffee or eating meat, the IJ doctrine and all the other cornball weird doctrines of the denomination. BTW, I hope you stay on this discussion forum. I learn a lot from you and I really like reading your comments.
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster

Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was still her my son's mother's home, HER mother would regularly hiss (almost literally) about the evil machinations of the Catholics and their pope. I'm acquainted with the mark of the beast and how all the Protestant Churches (other than SDA of course) are really Catholic, according to SDAs.

I'm wondering whether, as formers, y'all have reformed your attitude toward the Roman Catholic church and its leadership?

The other day, I saw some numbers indicating that there are something like 1.4 billion Christians in the world, over a billion of them Catholic.

That would lead me to infer that God likes Catholics!

I have some problems with the Catholic church, esp. it is foreign to me that I should said some Our Fathers and some Hail Marys, then be pronounced 'forgiven' by this guy in a funny collar. There are some doctrinal differences, obviously. There's a lot of culture, too, that is quite foreign.

I cannot call Catholics a "cult" however, when they represent the large majority of the followers of Christ.

What are your attitudes about the Roman Catholic church and its leadership? Do you distinguish between the pope and bishops, etc. and the local parishioner? Have your attitudes changed since recovering from Adventism?

- Hoytster
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 298
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting question, Hoytster. I'll be interested in others' answers.

My attitude has modified a lot. I no longer see the pope as a dead-ringer for the antichrist. (Actually, I see the pope as a possible candidate as well as a powerful muslim, business person, politician, etc.) I believe many Catholics love Jesus and are his.

I also believe, however, that the religion is as binding and deceptive as Adventism. In fact, in many ways Adventism is much like Catholicism. They both believe they are the "only true church." Catholics teach a person must be baptized Catholic in order to be saved. They both teach imparted righteousness (a protion of grace given from an external source as the means of being able to do good works) as opposed to imputed righteousness (rightousness made completely ours by our faith in Christ; God looks at us when we are in Christ and sees us intrinsically righteous through His blood). They both have an extra-biblical authority whose word is binding on the church (EGW, the pope). They both teach salvation by faith and good works (related to the imparted righteousness idea). The Catholic church recognizes Adventist baptism because it is into a corporate body, but they do not recognize evangelical baptisms because they are individually baptized into Christ; they do not need to belong to a church orgagnization in order to be saved. Adventists (despite their public protests) do believe that ultimately all the saved must subscribe to Adventist teachings even if the only teaching they understand is keeping the Sabbath. They allow that a person may not have had the Sabbat clearly presented to him before his death; that person might be saved as long as he lived by all the light he had. By the second coming of Christ, however, all those caught up with Him will be keeping the Sabbath. It is the ultimate test.

I personally see Catholicism as a system the honest-in-heart need to be called FROM, in the same way those wanting truth need to be called from Adventism. It's very interesting that Catholics often leave Catholicism and become Adventists. Among Adventists there is often the comment, "Former Catholics make such good Adventists!"

I see Catholicism as similar to Adventism also in that I believe a majority of the lay members do not understand the corruption and falsehood that drives their respective churches. They are sincere in their pursuit of holiness as they are taught it. The hierarchies of both chirches, however, I believe to be quite tainted with deception, greed, and so forth.

Juts my two cents' worth!

Colleen
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points again Colleen,

There is a site here which discusses the idea of whether the RC church is a cult:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/isitcult.htm

One point they make is that we need to define what we mean by "cult"

There is the theological approach, which Colleen has taken in the above post, the points to look for being:

1. Does the group take the Bible as the sole basis of it's teaching, or is there extra-biblical revelation?

2. Is faith in Christ the basis for salvation, or is legalism involved?

3. Does the group consider itself the only true church?

As pointed out above, Roman Catholicism (as a system) fails on all three points.

The other definition is the sociological approach. I see this here in Hungary, because it is a Roman Catholic country (about 80% RC).

The general attitude of people here is that any church, religion, or grouping which is not Roman Catholic is a cult (with the possible exceptions of the Reformed and Lutheran churches, as well as Judeaism, as these are at least "historical").

This means that scientology, witchcraft, Krishna consciousness, Baptists and Methodists are all tarred with the same brush. I have seen the same attitude in Romania, though there it is only the Easten Orthodox church which is "not a cult". Rather a bizarre situation.

Incidentally, I also have some friends who are Roman Catholics and obviously dedicated Christians, but they are in a sense still bound by the system. I think it would be better for them to leave, but it is up to them.

Another incidentally, the national leader of the Christian Advent Fellowship (Reisinger J·nos), who run the Bible College, is an ex-RC and now a fanatical Adventist. So is Gyula's friend Tibor, who joined the CAF.

I just wondered if a factor could be that both systems have a "perfect woman" they can worship, or at least, honour.

Maybe that notion is just fantasy.

God bless,
Adrian
Sharon2
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Username: Sharon2

Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll add an interesting bit of trivia to your discussions regarding the golden rule. At the time of Jesus there were two predominate groups of Pharisees: the School of Hillel and the School of Shammai. Rabbi Hillel is credited with being the originator of the golden rule. Most of the teachings of Jesus align with the teachings of Hillel. It is believed that Nicodemus, Gamaliel, and Paul were all from the school of Hillel. Pharisees who were disciples of Hillel are most likely the ones who followed Jesus. Rabbi Shammai was very legalistic and hard-hearted. His disciples were probably the ones that Jesus had disagreements with. Rabbi Hillel was elderly and known for his kindness. He probably died when Jesus was about 14, but he could have been teaching in the Temple when Jesus was there at age 12. After the death of Hillel, Shammai and his disciples moved into power and remained in power until after the distruction of Jerusalem, then disciples from the school of Hillel gained power again. The teachings of Hillel are incorported into Judiasm today. That is one reason that they have a very strong emphasis on doing good works.
Sharon
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The last several years as an Adventist I started noticing that the evangelistic meetings seemed to draw primarily Catholics and Baptists who actually hung in through all the meetings and chose to become Adventists. I totally agree that Adventists are very close to Catholics for all the reasons Colleen stated.

As to the Baptists, they seemed to be drawn in by the idea of studying prophecy. Then they got caught in the Sabbath because many seem to have a false Sabbatarian belief of their own. If you believe the Sabbath really was changed to Sunday, it's only a matter of time before the Adventists can get to you.
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 2:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure where to put this, but as a never-was-SDA, maybe here would be OK.

I came across this thought/Bible passage when preparing my sermon for yesterday (and did include it as well).

2 Cor 4 is rather telling as a whole, but verse 5 struck me: "For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord."

Surely if someone's whole effort in preaching is aimed at building a particular denomination, even to the extent of enticing people who are already Christians to join their favourite movement, then they are missing the point.

Romans 8: 16 does not say, "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Adventists" does it? It says, "God's children."

I think it is great that I do not have to find the right denomination to join in order to be saved, I just need to belong to Jesus, and then find a group of people that follow him.

Just a thought,
Adrian
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 129
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adrian,
I agree with what you say above. All I need to do is belong to Jesus, then find a group of people that follow him. We are "God's Children"
What a beautiful thought and that thought can be a reality.
Thanks,
Diana

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