| Author | Message | ||
| Lucas1v (Lucas1v) |
Hi! My name is Lucas and I need your help. I'm from Richmond VA, where there is a SDA working around Brazilians who live in the area. Some good people, but in my opinion very "twisted" from the Truth of the Bible. They have influenced a son of mine, who has been completely "brainwashed"about the Sabbath. My son who is not very mature in the Bible is completeley confused.Here are some of his doubts which he's trying to impose on me: 1. There are 2 Laws. a. The Law of God which "only" consists of the 10 Commandments. B And the Law of Moses which is everything else. B. But of course everything runs toward the Sabbath. 2. In Mathews 5:17-18 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. How can I explain that "till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." That this refers to the Law of Moses and of God being fulfilled in Jesus. His major doubt is that "till heaven and earth pass away, " It is refering to the coming of Jesus. There are so meny things, I appreciate your explanations and your prayers. LucasV | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
In that passage, have him look closely at 17. "the law AND THE PROPHETS". Frequently, I have heard that verse quoted omitting the "AND THE PROPHETS" part completely. For someone who does not have the text in front of them, it may not be apparent that the verse is being misquoted. The term was a common phrase to describe the Old Testament. I think it's an injustice to see that passage as talking about the 10 commandments alone. I'm sure others here can give you a far more detailed explanation that will answer the SDA slant. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
First of all, Lucas, when someone tries to say "the Law of God" and "the Law of Moses" are two different things, they ignore one little fact: God gave the entire "Law of Moses" to Moses to give to the people. There is nowhere in the Bible where a distinction is made between the "big 10" and other laws that occur in the remainder of the first five books of the Bible with one exception. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant given to Moses at Sinai. As such, they are the foundation of the rest of the law. However, they are no more or less required than any other commandment in the rest of the Law. As for Matthew: Let me give you a similar statement: "If I have to wait for the stars to fall from the sky, I will never talk to that idiot until he apologizes." Now, I ask you, if "that idiot" apologizes, do I still need to wait for the stars to fall? No. However, even if you think I do need to wait, think about this. Jesus is saying that every little requirement of the law (sacrifices, feast days, etc.) stay unchanged until . . . So, ask this: "If you think the conditions are not yet met (pass away, fulfill) what sentence in Leviticus do you think Jesus would allow you to change in any way?" The answer is: not one "jot or tittle." | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Jerry, good explanation... It seems so simple to understand. It really is true about the veil over ones' eyes whenever the Old Covenant is preached as the revelation of God's will for us... Or even preached as the partial revelation that pointed to Christ--Christ, who then points us back to the "eternal" law/10 Commandments of Sinai. A real mixture of New and Old that is really, as Paul says in Galations, "no Gospel at all." And, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old Covenant is read. It has not been removed; because ONLY IN CHRIST is it taken away ." (2 Corintians 3 &4) I am very grateful to be able to see the simplicity, and yet immense grandeur, of JESUS... who became that curse for us by hanging on the cross... redeeming us from the curse of the law; so that we might receive the blessing and PROMISE of LIVING BY THE SPIRIT. grace always, cindy | ||
| Lucas1v (Lucas1v) |
Thanks so much for all your explanations, it's opening a lot of avenues of knowledge.One thing that i didn't mention before is that, my son (which I feel his statement is very childish) says that the fact that Moses put "The book of the Law" "and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God" Deut.31:26. He feels it proves that the big 10 is the Law of God and the other Law is Moses' I said I think it is "childish" because there are so many passages that show clearly the difference. At least to me such, as Exodus 24:3 and II Peter 1:20,21. Now, Melissa, don't you think that the fact the SDA mentions Mathew 5:17 overlooking "and the prophets" and if we give also emphasis to this they would say that's one reason to trust EGW? All these questions I asked and which i'm very grateful for you taking your time to answer, is because my son, already mentioned, didn't become a SDA yet, hasn't been baptized. But I trust his honesty very much. He gave up a manargment position of 4 years, because he doesn't want to work on Saturdays any more.It's scary. Please keep us in your prayers. Lucas | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
How can I explain that "till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." It says nothing will change in the law UNTIL all is fulfilled. All was fulfilled when Jesus said "It is finished" and died. Lucas, I am putting your son on my prayer list. I hope your son does not get caught up in this deception. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Lucas, Thanks for sharing your very valid concern with us. I speak from experience with a son-in-law now no longer my s-i-l. It is a very disturbing thing to have someone you love become duped into a false religion. I am very sympathetic of you. Having said that I feel I can maybe help you not make some of the mistakes I made. Isn't God interesting as He puts us in places and uses everything available to fulfill His purpose. Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. One problem I had was I was not well versed in scripture and consquently I had to defend what I believed at first and this happened with anomosity. I did love my s-i-l and still do but just like my own children I can not stand by when they are running in the street without helping them. My s-i-l was/is a very proud, arrogant, searching for the "right"(tangible) answers,person I had never heard of the teachings of SDA although there was church just a block from mine and I have gone past it daily for over 30 years. But there were red flags immediately and one was the deceptive way of presenting things. My daughter knew nothing of his involement until he came home one day and said he was taking their 2 boys to church on Saturday. I also had had some things happen to me in the months previous to this (1998) that made me sure that I was following in the way that God wanted and it had nothing to do with any law. It was my trust and faith and belief in God's Son and as I studied, that provision was to make me sure of my eternal life, something quite frankly I had not really come to grips with. To answer your question as to what to do, I would say present Jesus to him in no uncertain terms. The fact that scripture explicitly says it is not what we do but what He did. Just the fact it says: I am the way the truth and the life, I am the bread of life, I will not leave you or forsake you, I will remmeber their sins no more, I go to prepare a place for you, I am the resurrection and the life, and on and on it goes. It does not say if you do this it says I am, I will, etc. Have him read Galations over and over again and Romans and Hebrews and 2 Corinthians 3 and Ephesians. Remind him that these things they teach are very obscure and we should not go to the obscure to teach the possitive but to the possitive to teach the obscure. You and your son will be in my prayers, Carol | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Lucas, you have to point out to him some other verses. Like I TIm. 1:9-11 the law is for lawbreakers. It was to be the schoolmaster that drove us to Christ by showing us that our identity at that point was "lawbreaker and sinner" and hopeless. Christ redeemed us from the Law by becoming the curse for us (Gal. 3:13). The Law was given after the covenant of a promised saviour was given to Abraham (Gal. 3:16-18, by the way, Abraham had NO law to follow). Look especially at v. 19 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of trangressions UNTIL (remember telling your kids they couldn't have a cookie until AFTER they ate their veges?)the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." The thought continues on into v. 23 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the Law was put in charge..." (in some versions the word here is "tutor" actually "paidagogos", in the Greek society this was a servant to whom the master entrusted the care of his child, the paidagogos was to take the child to the teacher, but he himself was not the teacher...and when the child reached maturity, the paidagogos job was suspended) "...TO LEAD US TO CHRIST that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are NO LONGER under the supervision of the law." The whole stream of thought is continued into the next chapter. Notice verse 2 "until the time appointed by the father" and v. 4 "when the fullness of time had come" Jesus was born. Yeah yeah, I know SDA's get into the bit about all the law being spoken of here was the law of Moses, but you know what? In 4:24 you find that he has been speaking about 2 covenants the one "from Mount Sinai" and what was given at Sinai? The 10. And what does that law do? "gives birth to bondage..." Chapter 5 is continuing on with with the stream of thought telling the believer (these were Gentiles he was speaking to) not to be entangled again with bondage. The only bondage spoken of was that law given at Sinai, the whole body of law, to INCLUDE the 10. The way to not be enslaved to that bondage is to live by the Spirit (v.18) Curious that if these passages are only speaking about the law of Moses that v. 19 and 20 speaks of "adultery....idolatry....jealousy...murder..." all of which are addressed in the 10....hmmmm Then Paul continues to explain why living by the Spirit includes so much more than the law of Moses could address. V. 22, 23 speaks of love, joy,peace,longsuffering,kindness, goodness,faithfulness, gentleness,self-control... Refresh my memory folks, didn't the law merely pronounce judment on the lawbreaker and not speak of the right heart attitudes? Then the stream continues into chapter 6 with v. 2 proclaiming "bear one another's burdens and so FULFLL the law of Christ. Hey, it's the SDA's who want to say the the 10 belong to Christ. And here we are told that to fulfill that law we "bear one another's burdens" that was never even mentioned in the 10 and goes far beyond what they addressed. Do the rest of you remember the first time after leaving Adventism reading all the way through Galatians without break and having all kinds of lights going on? ha | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Lucav Welcome to the forum. Praise God that you are trying to keep him from such a mistake. I will add him to my prayer list. First is he willing to read anything that is contrary to what they are teaching him. There are many sites and Books out there. Even this forum there are many examples of what happened to those of us who fell for the White Lie. Please contact me if you want to know my opinion tbawgus@hotmail.com. Once again they prey on those who do not know the 'Bible and what it is saying. God be with you in your efforts. I am lifting this up to God as I type. I hope my brothers and sisters out there do the same. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lucas, there are also reasons why the law will never change until heaven and earth disappear. While people who accept Jesus are no longer under the authority of the law or its curse (as Lydell pointed out in her scriptures above--yes, Lydell--I remember those lights going on!), the law continues to serve the function it was originally intended to serve: it points out sin, and it promises that unbelievers are under a curse and sentenced to death. If you were to become a naturalized citizen of the US, Brazilian law would have no more authority over you. Brazillian laws would still exist, but they would be for people living in Brazil. You would have a new identity--American--and a new law would govern you: the laws of the USA. Just so, Christ-followers are under the authority of the Holy Spirit who lives in us and both teaches us God's will and gives us His power to do God's will at each moment of our lives as we trust him. We are no longer under the curse of the law--it was nailed to the cross (Col 2), and we are no longer under the law's authority to lead us to Christ. We know Jesus, and his Spirit replaces the law in our lives. Further, the law and the prophets are both necessary in order to show us that Jesus is who he says he is. Without the law, we would have no clear understanding of the significance of Jesus' life and the ways he fulfilled every part of the law. Only as we look at his life against the backdrop of the shadow of the law can we see that Jesus is truly the Messiah. Any person could have claimed to be the Messiah, but because we still have the law and the prophets, we can directly correlate Jesus' life, death, and resurrection with the rituals, ceremonies, and prophecies of the Old Testament. Only Jesus has fulfilled all of those metaphors and symbols and prophecies. As long as there is life on earth, we will need the law and the prophets to provide the objective proof that Jesus is who he said he is. The law and the prophets also testified to the righteousness that is from God apart from the law. (Romans 3:21-22) The reality of people being counted righteous because of their faith in God (Abraham, David, etc.) was first introduced in the Old Testament, and prophecies of the new birth (see the new covenant prophecies in Jeremiah 33 and the prophecies in Joel of the latter rain) foreshadowed the reality of the fulfillment of Pentecost and the church after Jesus went to heaven. Yes, the law is completely fulfilled NOW. Jesus did it all. But the law and the prophets still remain unchanged, calling unbelievers to repentance and to the inevitable curse of death they will inherit apart from Jesus, and witnessing to the eternal reality of Jesus' identity. Every word in the Bible is part of the revelation of our salvation and of God's eternal love for us. It's amazing! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Here is a thought. Ask him where the command to "congregate" to make a "holy convocation" on the Sabbath is given? Here is a guess...it is found in the law outside the Ark that the SDA claim is done away with...therefore, the whole idea of Sunday being the Mark of the Beast because people attend church on it falls. To keep the Sabbath, if you follow their logic by only obeying the "10", you would only have to abstain from working. Also, the dietary laws they follow are also the ones they claim are nailed to the cross...found in the written Law, where? On the outside of the Ark. So, it doesn't make any sense. Of course if you give your son the scripture, "Christ is the end of the law for all who believe." Romans 10:4. You will get one of two possible answers. #1 "Then can I go out and murder?" #2 "Only the ceremonial was ended." OR I have heard #3 from SDA's... #3 That is a faulty translation of the Greek word for end. It really means "Goal" of the Law. But does that make sense? Insert Goal and see..."Christ is the goal of the Law for all who believe." Look at the definition of goal. 1.The purpose toward which an endeavor is directed; an objective. See Synonyms at intention. 2.Sports. The finish line of a race. 3.A specified structure or zone into or over which players endeavor to advance a ball or puck. The score awarded for such an act. 4.Linguistics. A noun or noun phrase referring to the place to which something moves. That makes no sense. Finally you can tell him how Paul describes the Law in 2 Corinthians 3:7 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Good luck! | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Lucas, I wouldn't emphasize "and the prophets" as a phrase unto itself, but the "law and the prophets" as a phrase is a specific reference. When they drop the last 3 words, it's easier to convince someone he's talking about the 10 commandments. I personally have not found anything, not scripture, nor indepth studies covering a multitude of pages, etc that have influenced the Adventist in my life. I'd suggest being well-grounded in the issues yourself before tackling too many topics, I lost a lot of credibility because I didn't understand the teaching of scripture myself. Now, no matter how many times I correct that earlier misunderstanding, it does not matter. What I said first is all he remembers. But GOD is faithful. And your relationship with him and your understanding of him will grow as you study these issues. I also know it is very painful. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
As you said above, Colleen: "Only Jesus has fulfilled all of those metaphors and symbols and prophecies." Yet the SDA continues to look toward "the last days" for all to be fulfilled. They fail to see that the "last days" arrived with Jesus. We live already in the future, while still also dwelling in the present. All that Christ had to accomplish for us has been done. There's nothing left for him to do to provide for our salvation, and we as believers are now already fully citizens of the kingdom of God. How said that the SDA continue to see themselves as strangers. Thank God for freedom, eh? Pheeki, I'm glad you mentioned the passage about the ministry of death engraved in letters on stone. How much more clear can that get?! But someone refresh my memory on how the SDA's wiggle around that one. I can't seem to remember the argument now. | ||
| Lucas1v (Lucas1v) |
Thank you all so much for so meny great teachings and ideas.Please keep me posted if you have any more teachings. I'll be checking everyday. Your prayers are very well appreciated. I have a quite a lot to digest. May the Lord bless you all. Lucas | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Lydell, They get around it by ignoring it and saying...Jesus would never put his Law of Love against us. It is like they have given all the glory due to Jesus to the Law! I have been told on CARM I am lost for not keeping the Sabbath, yet, it cannot save me. How can it lose me?????????????? Schizophrenic. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Pheeki - You go girl!!!!!! (I hope I'm not losing my mind, you are a lady, right???!!!) Just finished reading your "Edenic Rest" topic on CARM, and I'm so impressed - have printed it all out to keep. You are doing the work God has called you to do. I cannot do it, many of us cannot, but you are able, and I know God is using you in this. Hang in there!!!! Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Thanks so much Carol. You know the persecution we face there...thanks for being in the fray with me and standing up for the Gospel. I am a girl! Please stay with me, you strengthen me! Your sister in Christ! Vicki | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
When it comes to dismissing the "ministration of death", while B acknowledged the Bible said that, he would just impeach it with other texts talking about the law being "good, righteous, holy", etc. It seems some scriptures are more valid than others. It's like pointing out in Lev 23 where the 7th day Sabbath is described as one of the feast days. Scripture explains scripture except there...it's not talking about God's holy day. I don't know why. B talks about the 10 being "God's character", though and I don't know where that comes from. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
B talks about the 10 being "God's character", though and I don't know where that comes from. Straight out of Ellen White. But what does the Bible say? Hebrews 1 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Pheeki - I think you have me confused with "Another Carol" on this forum. She also does an incredible job on CARM. But I keep you in my prayers, as I do all on this forum, I know you face a tough bunch on CARM - I could not do what you are doing. We're all very proud of you! Love and Prayers, Carol #2 |
