| Author | Message | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
I am a life-long Methodist, currently going thru a difficult divorce from a pseudo-SDA. The "pseudo" is applied because she never joined the church. When we were together, we took the children to Sabbath School and to Sunday School, and neither of us was particularly concerned about any doctrinal differences. Since the break-up, she enrolled the children in a SDA school, so they get Adventism six days a week. I've been educating myself about Adventism, and have found some of it alarming. I was greatly dismayed when my son told me his mother was reading him a children's version of The Great Controversy to him, saying words to the effect "The beast with many heads, Daddy, one of which was injured and then got better!? That was when the Pope was captured by the French and later released." (I may have gotten some of the quote wrong.) So apparently my son is being taught that the Pope is the anti-Christ, etc. Can someone direct me to the children's version of The Great Controversy? What is it titled, and where can I get it (if not Amazon)? I'd like to read it, so I know what he's being taught. Thanks a lot - Hoytster | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
You might start with www.adventistbookcenter.com They have a lot of versions of GC on there, but I couldn't really locate a childrens one. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Hoytster yes you are right the SDA church teaches the pope is the anti christ and many more far feteched things then that. read these threads and it will give you some ideas. There are many sites that tell the lies they teach. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hoytster, Welcome. Check out the links section of this web site: click here: for the link page One of them has most of EGWís published writings online plus many good articles explaining the problems. Jerry | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Welcome Hoyster. Blessings. There is compelling evidence that significant portions of the book The Great Controversy were written by earlier Christian authors and either copied or paraphrased by Ellen and/or her staff of editors. Former SDA pastor Walter Rea exposed it to the public and the SDA membership with his 1982 book, "The White Lie". Chris gave you an excellent link above for SDA books. The Great Controversy is the SDA church's flagship publication about their particular end-of-the-world scenario. What you have heard so far is only the tip of the iceberg. Interestingly enough, Ellen White, the so-called prophet whom the SDA church credits with writing The Great Controversy as a result of visions Jesus gave her, began her life a Methodist. There is an enlightening article about it on this link: http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw0.htm You've certainly come to the right place for questions. I think you'll find that most of the people here are very familiar with SDA doctrines, how the SDA's teach them, and why they teach them that particular way. Many of us spent eons in the SDA church and have families and longstanding history within SDA circles. Many are even intimately connected with SDA's on a day-to-day basis. God bless you as you reasearch this particular subject. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Welcome, Hoytster! We are certainly glad you're here. I'd also like to recommend Dale Ratzfaff's book, The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists to you. Richard just finished re-reading it because he recently gave it to a Christian acquaintance, and he wanted to see again what that person would be reading for the first time. He said it really is a good exlanation of the core problems of Adventism and is a good book for evangelicals to read. Cultic Doctrine is available from Dale's website listed on the Links page of this website. With prayers for you and your family, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Welcome, Hoytster. Too bad you can't get the wife to send the kids to a non-denominational Christian school. I'm glad you are here. It will be great that we regulars can assist someone new. My wonderful, precious, georgeous five year old granddaughter started her educational carreer last month, in a SDA school. I bite my tongue because I really believe if my son thinks I'm being too much of a buttinsky he'll cut me off from the children an heaven forbid, I don't want that. His wife is Catholic. She is not from the U.S. and does not know Emglish yet. She went all through Catholic school. All she has been told so far is that her daughter (my son is actually the childs step-father) is attending a Christian school. I think it's very deceptive of my son to not level with her but once again, I keep my lips zipped. I sent one of my younger chidren to a non-denominational school for a year and my mom atually told me (this is a QUOTE), "Susan, please don't send him there because of all the BAD THINGS he will be taught" I told her it was a Christian school and as Christisans nothing bad would be taught to him and she assured me that he would be taught that it is o.k. to go to church on Sunday and that it is o.k. to eat pork and those are very bad things and she wanted better for her precious grandson. As you can see, I'm in the middle of the SDA generations. Oh, Hoytster, my prayers go out to you in this situtation. | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Thanks, all, for making me feel so welcome! I had previously found a pointer to Walter Rea "White Lie" -- I ordered it and I've been browsing through it. It's quite sad. My impression is that Mrs. White hit upon a way to make a living: plagiarize and pass it off as visions from God. I thought it was very telling, that she collected royalties for herself and her children. How ironic. The Rea book mentioned White's Methodist background. I'll check out the Ratzfaff book also, and there is a TON to look through on this site. Thanks so much for your support. - Hoytster | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Re the shut door. From reading Rea, I gather that the "shut door" (or is it "shut room"?) was EGW's declaration that those not of the true faith as of some date (1844?) were forever closed off from heaven. Is that correct? If so, what is the position of present day SDAs, who (obviously) are doomed under EGW's prescription? More generally -- the search feather doesn't work for me. When I click the link, I always get a 'page cannot be found' error. I'm sure that the "shut door" has come up on this board. How do I find it? Thanks, Hoytster | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
The ìShut Doorî is no longer taught by SDA (since somewhere in the late 1840ís or early 1850ís). The replacement is Investigative Judgement. Even that has been watered down and renamed as ìpre-Advent Judgementî or some other double-speak terminology. The search feature was turned off by the Moderator due to abuse by a former poster. Here is a link The Shut Door | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, The Shut Door began to open when Jesus didn't come by 1851 (the last date set for his return), and Adventist families began to be fearful because they had made no provision for new family members to become part of the "saved" as babies were born and as people married. They gradually refined the doctrine to include people who married their children and new births, and gradually they received new light and abandoned the teaching altogether. It's a seldom-mentioned embarrassement now. Colleen | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Thanks for the responses, Jerry and Colleen. Thanks for the link, Jerry. That's an interesting site. Googoling the site for "remnant church" turned up: "Adventists will attempt to convince you that unless you keep the seventh day, that is Saturday, as the holy Sabbath, then you are not part of the remnant church. They will go further in trying to convince you that this is in fact a sin against the Holy Spirit." So even if they have allowed that persons born since 1844 have a shot at salvation (putting aside the shut door), SDAs continue to hold that the 99% of Christians who are Sunday worshippers are without hope of abiding with Jesus. That seems fundamentally un-Christian to me. It must be disturbing for the SDAs that ellenwhite.org is critical of their idol. - Hoytster | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Thanks for your responses in that other thread. On Monday, I am seeing my son's Guardian Ad Litem (GAL), at which time I will bring up my son's being indoctrinated as a SDA. In my original post, I mentioned the fact that we did equal time at each of our churches, until the split, at which point his mother enrolled him in an Adventist school, read to him the children's version of the Great Controversy, etc. I very much appreciate your help in preparing my statement to the GAL, about Nelson's newly force-fed Adventistism. Are the following statements fair / accurate? How should I modify the statements, or expand them? ------------------------------------ The SDA church is the remnant church; other churches are invalid. Adherents to the SDA faith are the select who will be transported to heaven, the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation. No others. The pope is the anti-Christ. All Christian churches other than the SDA church are false, under the influence of the pope who is the anti-Christ. Sunday worshippers are doomed to burn in hell. Jesus is the arch-angel Michael. We are not saved through God's grace alone, but through our works as well. ------------------------------------ Any other theological points that I should be raising? I looked up the "investigative judgement" that Chris or someone mentioned, and that's quite strange, but I think it's the kind of sect-level detail that the GAL will not find compelling. Can someone give me the SDA take on Christmas and Easter? In my church, as in all Christian churches _I thought_, Easter is the main event of the whole Christian story. He died and was raised again. My 10-year-old son is a little Bible scholar, but when I asked him last Easter about the significance of that day, he said "It's important to be nice to people?" He didn't have a clue, for which I fault my church as well as the SDA church. What's the story? I guess I "know" that SDAs cannot get into Easter because Easter is unavoidably on Sunday, and they cannot place much significance on Sunday events. Correct? MOST IMPORTANT: Is it likely that my son is being taught that his father's religion (Methodism) is invalid? Is my son being taught that I cannot gain entry to heaven, because I do not keep the Sabbath (Saturday)? Is it likely that my son is being taught that his father is doomed to burn in hell? Thanks very very much - Hoytster | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Hoyster, I hate to tell you this, but while many SDAs basically believe the things you outlined above and they are even taught (in different language) in some Sabbath school classes, I would guarantee that they would adamantly deny it to the end when speaking with "outsiders". Or at the least they would quival endlessly with the blunt way you have stated these things above. If you want to make this type of argument you would do well to use actual word for word quotes from SDA baptismal vows, the 27 fundamentals, and/or EGW. SDAs will probably try to redefine the meaning of these quotes when in the company of outsiders, but they will probably not out and out deny them. It's difficult to expalin, but there are two levels of doctrinal interpretation. There is the interpretation that is officially affirmed to the world, then there is the interpretation that most of us have grown up with in our homes, schools, and Sabbath school classes. This second form of indoctrination is more difficult to define and prove, but it's widespread within the Adventsit culture. On Easter and Christmas: This varies widely from region to region, church to church, family to family, and even over time. When I was a kid in the 70s, Easter was considered a pagan holiday and wasn't really was linked to the resurrection. My family would dye Easter eggs for fun, but we were looked down on by other SDA families for having any involvement at all with paganism. Today, it's pretty common for SDAs to celebrate the secular parts of Easter and many churches even have Easter themed services (albeit on Saturday NOT Sunday). In my experience, Christmas wasn't nearly as maligned or taboo (possibly because it's not a Sunday holiday). I know that historically a few Adventist have also regarded Christmas as pagan, but in my experience this would be a minority view. I'm curious if anyone here has ever researched EGW on these two holidays. I would not be surprised to find out that the negative feelings in some quarters towards these Christian holidays came from her writings. Does anyone know? Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree with Chris, Hoytster. One more caution: my experience leads me to suspect that the courts don't much care the details of the religion a child is being reared in. The person to whom you'll speak may not be too moved by the details of Adventism. In answer to you last questions, I think it's entirely possible your son is being subtley (or not so subtley) indoctrinated that you will not go to heaven unless you accept Saturday, etc. In fact, probably so. By all means take you statements to the meeting, but be prepared to give broad, compelling reasons why your son needs to be with you. Above all, pray that the representative to whom you speak will perceive the truth and that you'll say what you need to say. This is a spiritual battle, and I've no idea where this child rep. stands spiritually. Pray that you'll be protected, that you'll say what needs to be said, and that truth will be known. God is more powerful than the apathy or spiritual disinterest of even a court or mediator. I'm praying for you and your son. Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Hoytster, I have the same challenges as you. One of the arguments I have used with my sonís father as to why I would not allow him to take him to church was that ultimately they would teach him to disrespect his mother. They would teach him that it was wrong to go to church on Sunday and would be something wrong with him going to church with me, thereby undermining my authority when I told him to go. If my son bought into his dadís arguments, I could see real battles with my son to get him to do anything I ask because of the general disrespect that his father would help him learn. But as Colleen said, I donít think the court is going to care. I had a friend try to help an in-law get custody of kids away from a parent who was into witchcraft, but the court said her religion was not a valid argument. I am trying to get sole custody in a state where fewer than 5% of all cases are granted sole custody. My basis is deep parental disagreement. I tell the school he can eat anything, his dad says no meat...who does the school listen to? I say he can have tylenol, his dad says no medicines. Who does the school listen to? One of us has to have the final word because we will never agree. My chances are slim. But we try and pray for God to interceed on our childrenís behalf. He loves them more than we do. Keep fighting for your child. Keep bringing up the issues, document support for your concerns in language that the court can hear...like disrespect, etc. And most of all, keep praying. God will work out each of our situations as he sees fit and we have to continue to be faithful regardless. Keep the lines of communication open with your child and as he grows, teach him the word of God around those issues you know he is going to hear error. When he hears it, maybe heíll recognize something doesnít fit. Talk to him about things he canít understand and someday, he will. God help us both! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Chris, Our former prophetess was definitely opposed to religious holidays like Christmas, Easter, etc. Adventists have always taught that people are most willing to keep any day except the right one--meaning Saturday of course. For example, Ellen White only allowed a Christmas tree in an SDA church for fundraising purposes (i.e., hanging paper money bills on a Christmas tree as a goal device in Sabbath School). No other purpose was sanctioned. Interestingly, I have found the evolution of the Christmas tree in the College View SDA Church to be most fascinating and somewhat entertaining. When I was a student at Union College in the 1960s, no Christmas trees were ever displayed inside the church. Beginning in the late 1980s, however, they had several undecorated, unlighted trees on the rostrum. This looked rather strange for a festive season. Then in subsequent years they gradually added more decor to the trees. I remember one year they added garland and then the next year the lights were added. Then the following year wall decor of wreaths and garland were also added. It was actually humorous to observe this year-by-year EVOLUTION of the Christmas tree. Nobody seemed to object. In my conservative upbringing in Seventh-day Adventism, we NEVER had a Christmas tree in our home--although three colorfully-lit evergreens were in front of our farmhouse (smile). My parents even had Santa Claus, in his pagan attire, come to deliver our presents one Christmas eve. Legalism is never consistent. Furthermore, I was a member of a SDA church in Tennessee that made large Easter bunny chocolate-covered eggs for fundraising during the Easter season. The decorated eggs were made from scratch in the pastor's home on Sunday mornings. On another occasion, I helped a SDA pastor sell canned beef barbecue sandwiches at a horse show to benefit the local church school. He said there was a higher profit margin on real meat sandwiches than selling fake meat ones. The church school teacher did not show up being she was opposed to selling cooked animals for Adventist education (LOL). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Yes, in a round about way, Hoytster, your child IS being taught those cornball things you fear he is being taught. However, if you are to come right out and point blank, in your face ask most SDA's if those things are SDA teachings you will get a firm, "No, the SDA does not teach that". It is much more subtly ingrained over a long time period into the SDA persons way of thinking. This is how come a week or so someone on here gave the dictionary diffinatin on the word "brainwashing" and the diffination fits SDA'ism perfctly. For example, Saturday observance; SDA's wil give a non-Saturday observng an out" on this one if amd only if the person has never, and that means NEVER had so much as even learning THE SABBATH THRUH. You can not any more get a pass from a SDA on this one because your ex has made you aware of Saturday observance as has your child. This is the #1 reason we here on this line have hd so many family trpubles. It's because most of us here were born into families that taught us ALL TRUTH and this upsets our families that we have turned our backs on eternal life by now attending churches that meet on Sundays. My elderly mother when she realized I have a membership in a local Lutheran church actually confronted me with asking me if I was now attending classes on how to torture Sabbath-keepers in the last days. No one and I truly mean no one, unless the person was truely raised in a diehard SDA family could ever be able to comprehend that in the above confrontaton with my mother she was 100% serious. But, if you are to ask a SDA if a non-Saturday observing Christian has a chance at eterna life the answer will always be "yes" and that is because they will be assuming tou mean only Christians who have not had an opportunity to KNOW THE TRUTH. Another point, once someone has had the opportunity to know the truth of The Sabbath and that person has reected the truth of The Sabbath than that person has willingly, of his/her own free-will voluntarilly given up any hope of eternal life with Jesus. Anther thing I want to mke very clear to you is this: When disciussing anything Christian or Bibical with a SDA when you point out certain teachings and truths in the Bible and then you show them what the Bible says on whatever topic you are discussing their standard reply will be, "Yes,. that is what it says. BUT, what it really means is..." Mark my words, you will get a reply that goes like this, "Yes, that is what the Bible APPEARS to teach, however..." and the SDA will teach you a totally differnt teaching that what you just read right out of your Bible. This will happen on nearly every doctrine that most Christians believe as well as most things the SDA church teaches. It will happen on the top-ic of Saturday worship, eating meat, some SDA's still promote total avoidence of the military and I personally have SDA kin who will not vote becvause it is partisipating in a wordly kingdom and they believe since all are sinners there are no good politions because only Jesus has the right to be our Commander-in-Cheif, King or President or Prime Minister, whatever. This also will include how come the children are to not mingle with the Boy or Girl Scouts and rather are to be in Pathfinders. Eventually the SDA denomination will suck the convert if allowed to by the unspecting convert into devoting all their time to the SDA truth and away from any and all enjoyment with those evil Sunday worshippers. Forget about drinking a beer at a Friday night barbeque qith your friends. #1: Friday night is sacred time. #2: your friends are all SDA, therefore your wordly neighbors are to be wittnessed to about the truth or just be put up with and, #3: beer is almost as bad a sin as going to church on Sunday is and #4: there most likly will be meat at the barbeque so the barbeque is OUT and even more so if there are pork ribs on the grill. Now about Easter; well most SDA's now teach that Easter PROVES that Saturday is the day of holy worship because even Jesus was asleep in His tomb over the holy Sabbath hours. That's the extent of Easter among the Adventists. My dad would use the phrase, "the heathens" when he was referring to Christians who went to church on Sundays. To my dad and I believe this is so with most die-hard true-blue SDA's they belive no one can even be a Christian if they worship on Sunday. Or rather, I should say, do not keep the Sabbath holy as they believe it is to be observed. So, to most SDA's your being a Christian of the Medothist faith tradition is moot. You are not even Christian, you just think you are. You are an ignorant fool to even believe yourself to be Christian. I kid you not, this is what your child is being instilled to believe. However the Good News is that by the power of the Holy Spirit your child and you can and will get through this. Prayer is powerful and the Good Lord does know your heart and you and your child will be held dear to the heart of Jesus. Hangeth in there! | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Susan I know what you mean about your mom thinking you are lost. I was raised in a semi liberal adventist home. We ate meat, went out to eat on Sabbath, but didn't wear jewelery,didn't drink, were taught that if you didn't keep sabbath or went to church on Sunday you were lost. My father was raised in a christian home, but converted to adventism as an adult. One of the things that adventism did to him was that he thinks his mother will not be saved. She was such a wonderful lady. So giving and loving, loved the Lord, read her bible everyday, would have done anything for anybody. When she was in a nursing home before she died, one of the nurses said to me, "your grandmother is so sweet, she doesn't complain." BUT my grandparents didn't accept the sabbath. To my father, that means that she and my grandfather are lost. He is so heart broken about this. My father and his parents used to get into heated arguments about it and my grandfather would ask my father to leave. I try to tell my father about being saved by grace, but the veil is there. He can't see it. I pray that the veil will be lifted so he can see and truly rest in Jesus. I told him last year that I didn't believe in the teachings of EGW anymore nor that the sabbath is the seal of God. He thinks I'm lost, too. He asked me never to bring up the subject to him again. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Susan, I forgot to tell you, God bless you on your adventure in Hawaii. What Island are going to? |
