| Author | Message | ||
| Lydell |
Therese, I can confirm what Chyna just told you. Our sons were very young when we left the local church. But we really didn't leave the denominational teachings for several years afterwards. So they basically grew up with seeing our struggling to unravel the mess and get back to the truth. Teens hate nothing more than hypocrisy. So it is extremely important that you be straight with him. I would change one thing that Chyna said slightly. I would put far more emphasis on the truths that you have learned and only briefly mention the untruths of SDA. Most likely he himself could spot the untruths in his sleep, just picking them up by osmosis in church! Be straight with him on why it was you believed the untruths to start with. Don't be afraid of seeming like the weak parent. I think you will find that he will have more respect for you for admitting that even you can screw up. Use it as a way of warning him how he himself can avoid falling for lies. Use it to teach him how to recognize truth when he hears it. And pray for him. You know, the whole time you have been raising him, it was actually God that was in charge, if you were always seeking His face. He is actively involved in the raising of our children, if we allow Him to be. Place him in the Lord's hands for Him to undo the error you placed there. He is faithful to work. And praise God he is involved in a youth group! Encourage him to go if you see that it is a spiritually healthy group! | ||
| Nelda_church |
Thanks all for the splendid welcome. No, I don't have teenagers. My children are all grown. I think Chyna's comments are very good. Personally, the Lord has grown my faith over the past year tremendously. When I first became a sda 20+ years ago, I talked with some of the ladies about faith and one of them asked me what I was talking about. That should have been a major tip-off right then. She has told me numerous times through the years that she never had heard of faith preached in the church until she heard me talking about it. I would venture to say that sda'ism is one faith killing religion. It had almost killed mine before I got out of there. Spent too much time being a Pharisee in egw's books. the lessor light leading to the greater light and other such nonsense. Still have lots of anger folks, especially toward the leaders who KNOW and just keep gathering that tithe money. One of my daughters was married to the son of an sda preacher who unfortunately for us was stationed in our church. If he, the sda minister, was needed for anything, the first place to check was the golf course. The second place was the billiard hall or bowling alley or pizza parlour-etc. Another minister gave us the whole 9 yards about either his ex-wife or his colon problems everyweek. He was the one who screamed and hollered at me because I asked a question. I KNOW that we have a loving God, who in spite of everything has been leading our lives. I am truly grateful to be sane again. I feel like king Neb (sp) lol-who was out eating grass with the cows. I think my mind has been in worse shape than his at times. Mainly, because I would try to reconcile egw's writings to the Bible and as you know that just can't happen. Praise God, for the lady He brought into that church just long enough to get us out. She was even written up with her picture and everything in one of the sda magazines. The article was written about her having been given the national sunday law book and she read it 7 times and then looked for a sda church and took Bible studies and came in. Then the preachers wife (who was being paid to do so) gave her several more series of Bible studies, until she (the new convert)was just plumb wore out with it.LOL Anyway, this lady decided to get a computer in order to investigate egw. And I think I have already told the rest of the story. Thanks be to God for the internet and this lady's thirst for Truth. Sorry for the long wind. Thanks for listening. Nelda | ||
| Cindy |
Nelda, I'm glad you are here, too. :-)) May we both continue to rejoice and REST in the Lord alone! I enjoyed reading your observations... For too long I tried to reconcile Adventism with the message of the cross--Christ crucified for me! The dissonance that resulted has had far reaching consequences; but I still praise God for His leading. HE has been my GOOD Shepherd! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Welcome, Nelda. Unfortunately I've ran into other grace-killers out there in other churches too, but the SDA church and any church that insists it is the True Church I will not tolerate any longer. Like you, it almost killed me in SDAland literally. As I've shared before, I was suicidal constantly because I could never measure up. God's done some awesome works in my life, and I believe 2 summers ago, letting me sink into a clinical depression was a stepping stone to getting me to look at things differently in the church. I am so thankful for His love and the fact that He reached out to help me...little ole me. For me, I was amazed when I read Hebrews and the verse about Jesus paying the penalty once and for all for sin, and sitting down at the right hand of the Father just hit me! I was just in shock - like the blinders were off and I was reading this for the 1st time. First what a clear contradiction to the 1844 crap, and secondly I realized He had paid for all my sins, from front to finish, not just up to conversion. I was amazed, and had a long cry. What a difference to walk through your life realizing you are fully forgiven and free in Him. Do I sometimes sin? Yes, but the difference is, there is no need to beat myself up relentlessly. He already paid for it. I'll admit these last months I've probably ran a little looser then I should've...not giving a rip what I ate (hence my extra weight), or if I had a smoke now and again. I frankly felt so imprisoned that now that I'm free I sort-of let myself go abit. The bad thing about SDAism is that it can destroy your common sense for what is good and worthwhile because it attached good things to salvation...like no eggs, no cheese, no eating between meals....all of which may or may not be good health choices for you. But see, formally it was all about "if you love God, you will do blah blah blah" so if you disagreed you're left with guilt guilt guilt. Anyhow, it is a process, but one that your Heavenly Father goes with you on. Blessings! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Nelda, Welcome! Hmmm, that was a bit late but I don't have much time for this wonderful haven of a place anymore;-(( I loved the "faith killer's" expression! It is sure nice to peek at this site and see new names. And, speaking of names, I can add you to two other interesting names of gals I know, Velda and Delda;-)) Maryann....IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Chyna |
dear nelda, I think almost everyone here at FAF has struggled through experiences of anger. several threads to check out are the ones labeled with grief/anger etc. Many times I think it's a healthy anger, similar to how Jesus felt in the temple when they were defiling it by turning it into a merchant's place. I strongly feel that Adventism defiles Christianity, and what Salvation is. Recently I tried to explain to a friend why Adventism is so damaging, it boiled down to that it was trying to pass of a fake Salvation for real salvation, and so the things that make Salvation so joyous and wonderful were all taken away and replaced with false burdens. I recently heard a S.S. class saying that the reason Jesus was furious with the Pharisees was that they burdened the Jewish people with so many things (exactly what Adventists do) and they would do nothing to lighten their load, or to help bear their burdens. I just posted on the "heresies" thread and I was struck by the last scriptures within the passage Romans 9 30 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, "See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." Dear Nelda & Sherry, thank you both for sharing so much of yourselves with us. Nelda! You are not rambling on. You'll see as you continue posting that there are places inside of you once they are exposed to the light, they heal ... many of us have been exactly where you've been. and then, one day in the forum, someone will come in telling exactly your story and you will be able to give to that person strength and encouragement and support while they are feeling lost, and angry. much love, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
yes! ditto Sherry! my ex-SDA boyfriend was a health nut and a half. he was very proud of being vegetarian, yet still politely eating meat when we would go out. yet his attitude behind it sometimes was so pompous: "aren't I so good that I will even eat meat for you?" and he would constantly drag me out to play tennis. I do love tennis, but he outmatched me. he was almost a foot taller, had sixty pounds more of muscle, and had his own tennis court and had a personal tennis instructor (all thanks to the rich adventism doctor's salary his father made). he was in much better shape than I was, i was always so ready to fall asleep after a day spent with him. one day I had a talk with him about wearing sunblock. his whole family worships the sun, they put on tanning oil!! as a southern Californian, I see the wrinkled faces and chests of thirty year old women and shudder. so I asked him to wear sunblock so he wouldn't get skin cancer. he turned around and said that he thought *I* should become vegetarian because it was healthier for me! I sputtered of course. "Those two things are not the same!" plus, I was raised on an Asian diet, how am I supposed to give up quo tieh (chinese dumplings) :), and all of the other yummy homey comfort foods my mom made for me growing up. to me that's a radical lifestyle change to go from eating anything I wanted to only veggies and tofu. don't get me wrong i love soy, but there's always that extra kick that meat has in a dish. mmm, korean tofu. sorry, got off track. anyway, he wouldn't eat cheese! and occasionally he would say that he was giving up ice-cream! and chocolate! what person in their sane mind would give up chocolate. not any person i know :)! and he and I had some very sweet memories sharing chocolate and icecream together, and he wanted to give them up. anyway, I love cheese, and he would make all these remarks about me eating CHEESE and MEAT, jokingly, but pointedly. I got very tired of it. It was like he wouldn't say it was a sin, but he would treat it as a sin in my life. when I met his family, they loved and ate cheese! turns out my then SDA b/f was seeking to be the holiest of the holiest by eating a near vegan diet. it's so sad how tied to his salvation his "healthy" diet was. so moralistic. of course I didn't know how much it was related to his "works based" view of salvation at the time. and the funniest/saddest part was that he did like the taste of cheese sometimes. I always tell people that I'd rather be a little over my ideal weight and be able to eat lots of yummy scrumptious things, than be miserable and self-denying to be at my exact ideal weight. like today, i ate chocolate cake ... yum. Chyna | ||
| Dennis |
Chyna, your posts confirm anew that legalism(pharisaism)is never consistent. Extremes in diet, for example, can lead to severe illness and even death. I often wonder how many people, such as diabetics, have actually died from following the two-meal-a-day regimen that Ellen White advocated. Children also need more frequent meals and/or snacks. Through the years, many health professionals have observed the unusual high number of older SDA women, at SDA medical and educational centers, that are bent-over from lack of calcium in their diets. Fortunately, soymilk is now fortified, but many strict Adventist health enthusiasts do not really like its taste and texture. Consequently, with minimal soymilk consumption and without many other major sources of calcium, such extremists suffer healthwise sooner or later. Furthermore, the naturalist-type SDA will often not take any vitamin-mineral supplements. Years ago when my wife was pregnant with our second child, she awoke one morning with her face pulled to one side like a stroke victim. Her doctor immediately gave her a vitamin B-12 injection and special facial exercises to overcome her Bell's palsy. Fortunately, meat analogs(substitutes) are now fortified with B-12. However, many Adventists do not even eat fake meat; they make their own from scratch that, of course, is not B-12 fortified. My wife and I thank God daily for removing the "veil" from our hearts. We were devout SDAs for over forty years. I am currently writing the story our exodus from Adventism that took several years. COMING SOON in the STORIES section! In His amazing grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Dennis, Long time no hear from you;-)) Yeh, I can relate to the 2 meal deal! My mom (in the early 60s) was into that vision. Mom is a bit more sensitive to health issues than most and decided to have my dad "glucose" tested after he seemed as though he was going to pass out many times. Anyway, he did have a severe case of hypoglycemia and he then went on about 3 meal aday with "pickups" in between. He is now 78 and doing well. On the other hand. I have a friend that has hypoglycemia, yet wont let anything pass his lips between 6am and 6pm (approx). He works harder than any human I have ever seen. He is now over 50 and refuses to let his body dictate what and when he is to eat. In his last visit, I noticed some serious health problems and encouraged him to get a good blood pannel among other things. Why this eating style has NOT killed him is beyond me!!? And with hypoglycemia!!!? Grrrrrrr Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Dennis! I'm looking forward to your story, please put it out soon :). It's so sad that for SDAs to be good Christians they have to maintain their salvation ... Chyna | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
Hi all, blessings to you all. I stopped attending the local SDA church a few weeks ago and can not see myself going back. I have read through some of the posting in here and I must say that I don't think that I will be staying around very long. Without passing judgment on others, I just don't think I could ever be as forcefully against all (or most) of what the Adventists are. My story (readers digest version) is; born again in 1991, active in a charismatic church and on fire for Jesus for 3 years, fell away altogether for 6 years, baptized by submersion in a less charismatic but spirited baptist church for 1 year, re-baptized by submersion and joined the Adventist church in the fall of 2002. Now I am going to spend some time in the word and pray and talk to others for a while. Let me start by expressing that I have no doubt that I am saved. I never have and never will trust in anything but the Lord's grace for my salvation. I was attracted to the SDA doctrine, though, because I had become uncomfortable with the "freedom in Christ" component being so dominate in the Protestant churches (I had tried others not listed above) whereas there was very little being taught or preached about the law. Yes, I happen to believe that the laws of God and His commandments are valid and useful for the born-again Christian... not that the observance of them can save us or add to our salvation in any way, but to keep us on the right path and to know Him better. Respond to the previous statement if you wish, but I just thought I should mention it so that you have an idea of my thinking. Why did I leave the SDA church? There were 3 things that always bothered me. 1)Their teaching and belief in EGW as a prophetess. 2)Their tying the membership into Adventism to the baptism. 3)Certain biblical inconsistencies. What can you people here help me with? Plenty, I hope, but you may have to be patient with me. You see, I still thank God that I have a better understanding of certain things thanks to the Adventists. Let me start with the big one... the Sabbath. I do not believe in the great controversy theory that marks Sunday-Keepers while Sabbath-Keepers are saved, but I do believe that the Sabbath is still the day we are commanded to observe. I have seen tons of scriptural arguments for and against this issue but I can only make sense of the Sabbath as a day that was set aside to eternally commemorate the six days of creation. I really don't think that Jesus would have left us with only a few vague references if His intention was to change the Sabbath day. Would he not come out and clearly state that the Jewish Sabbath is no longer required to be followed? | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Hi, Imunity! Welcome! I've been posting here for just a couple weeks, so I'm another newbie. I'm not an SDA, but like you, I have heard the SDA position on the Sabbath and it has had some traction with me. So I've wanted to do this for a while, though, and your post provided the motivation. My search was not exhaustive; apparently I failed to "get" Titus when I downloaded my New Testament. I'll have to check that. If you like, please review the following and let us know your reaction. ----------------- (Luke 6) One sabbath while Jesus was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked some heads of grain, rubbed them in their hands, and ate them. 2 But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 3 Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and gave some to his companions?" 5 Then he said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the sabbath." 6 On another sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught, and there was a man there whose right hand was withered. 7 The scribes and the Pharisees watched him to see whether he would cure on the sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. 8 Even though he knew what they were thinking, he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come and stand here." He got up and stood there. 9 Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to destroy it?" 10 After looking around at all of them, he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was restored. 11 But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus. (Luke 13) 10 Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And just then there appeared a woman with a spirit that had crippled her for eighteen years. She was bent over and was quite unable to stand up straight. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said, "Woman, you are set free from your ailment." 13 When he laid his hands on her, immediately she stood up straight and began praising God. 14 But the leader of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had cured on the sabbath, kept saying to the crowd, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be cured, and not on the sabbath day." 15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger, and lead it away to give it water? 16 And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen long years, be set free from this bondage on the sabbath day?" 17 When he said this, all his opponents were put to shame; and the entire crowd was rejoicing at all the wonderful things that he was doing. (Luke 14) On one occasion when Jesus was going to the house of a leader of the Pharisees to eat a meal on the sabbath, they were watching him closely. 2 Just then, in front of him, there was a man who had dropsy. 3 And Jesus asked the lawyers and Pharisees, "Is it lawful to cure people on the sabbath, or not?" 4 But they were silent. So Jesus took him and healed him, and sent him away. 5 Then he said to them, "If one of you has a child or an ox that has fallen into a well, will you not immediately pull it out on a sabbath day?" 6 And they could not reply to this. (Mark 2) 23 One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 25 And he said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? 26 He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath." (Mark 3) Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come forward." 4 Then he said to them, "Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. (John 5) After this there was a festival of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate there is a pool, called in Hebrew Beth-zatha, which has five porticoes. 3 In these lay many invalids--blind, lame, and paralyzed. 4 5 One man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had been there a long time, he said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; and while I am making my way, someone else steps down ahead of me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Stand up, take your mat and walk." 9 At once the man was made well, and he took up his mat and began to walk. Now that day was a sabbath. 10 So the Jews said to the man who had been cured, "It is the sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your mat." 11 But he answered them, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Take up your mat and walk.'" 12 They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Take it up and walk'?" 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had disappeared in the crowd that was there. 14 Later Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you have been made well! Do not sin any more, so that nothing worse happens to you." 15 The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 Therefore the Jews started persecuting Jesus, because he was doing such things on the sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is still working, and I also am working." (John 7) 19 "Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why are you looking for an opportunity to kill me?" 20 The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is trying to kill you?" 21 Jesus answered them, "I performed one work, and all of you are astonished. 22 Moses gave you circumcision (it is, of course, not from Moses, but from the patriarchs), and you circumcise a man on the sabbath. 23 If a man receives circumcision on the sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I healed a man's whole body on the sabbath? (John 9) As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God's works might be revealed in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6 When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread the mud on the man's eyes, 7 saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). Then he went and washed and came back able to see. 8 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar began to ask, "Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?" 9 Some were saying, "It is he." Others were saying, "No, but it is someone like him." He kept saying, "I am the man." 10 But they kept asking him, "Then how were your eyes opened?" 11 He answered, "The man called Jesus made mud, spread it on my eyes, and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash.' Then I went and washed and received my sight." 12 They said to him, "Where is he?" He said, "I do not know." 13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14 Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also began to ask him how he had received his sight. He said to them, "He put mud on my eyes. Then I washed, and now I see." 16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not observe the sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?" And they were divided. (Matthew 12) At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 When the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath." 3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests. 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests in the temple break the sabbath and yet are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the sabbath." 9 He left that place and entered their synagogue; 10 a man was there with a withered hand, and they asked him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, "Suppose one of you has only one sheep and it falls into a pit on the sabbath; will you not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a human being than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath." | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Hello Imunity and welcome! May the Lord bless you in journey. To both Imunity and Hoyster, rather than reinvent the wheel and post a whole book here on the Sabbath topic, please allow me to point you to some excellent free online resources that deal with the topic in general and also address many of the texts that Hoyster posted. If there is any one single study experience I would reccommend, it is listening with an open Bible to the two part audio study on "The Gospel and The Covenants" by Pastor J. Mark Martin. You can find them here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/audio.cfm If you cannot stay online long enough to listen these I highly reccommend ordering the tapes which are sold at cost, just a few bucks. I would also reccommend this brief written overview of the covenants that begins here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/covenant.cfm Or the more extensive written study of the law and the covenants which begins here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/law-study.cfm Nothing else openned up the beauty and brilliance of the Bible for me and the beauty of Jesus Christ like a full understanding of the covenants. For a short paper on the Sabbath that addresses most of the key texts in question, I reccommend "Is Sabbath Observance Required for New Covenant Christians" by Pastor Clay Peck. You can download it here: http://www.graceplace.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.&page=informed_Covenant There are also several other good articles on this page. I would also point you to the white papers on the Sabbath and the law that the World Wide Church of God commisioned when it made the transition into evangelical Chrisitanity. These papers are truly excellent and thourourgh works. You can find them here: http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/default.htm Finally, I will point you to one resource that is not free, but that I believe to be the absolute best work on the subject available. If you are serious about understanding why so many Christians believe our true Sabbath rest is not a day at all, it is Jesus Christ Himself, this is THE book to read. It's called "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaf and you can get it here: http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001718178 If you are interested in a dialogue on this topic, please at least check out a couple of the free resources, then get back to us with what you think. I'm sure there are many on this group who are willing to discuss the topic in a loving, gentle, open-minded, non-confrontational, non-judgmental, and Christ-like way. We look forward to hearing from you! May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you in your study and in your journey. Your brother in Christ, Chris Lee Lincoln, NE | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Uh....here's the version that corrects my multiple mispellings, grammar errors, and typos in the above post. My apologies for the ugly looking post above. I hit "post" a little too quickly" Hello Immunity and welcome! May the Lord bless you in your journey. To both Immunity and Hoyster, rather than reinvent the wheel and post a whole book here on the Sabbath topic, please allow me to point you to some excellent free online resources that deal with the topic in general and also address many of the texts that Hoyster posted. If there is any one single study experience I would recommend, it is listening with an open Bible to the two part audio study on "The Gospel and The Covenants" by Pastor J. Mark Martin. You can find them here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/audio.cfm If you cannot stay online long enough to listen these I highly recommend ordering the tapes which are sold at cost, just a few bucks. I would also recommend this brief written overview of the covenants that begins here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/covenant.cfm Or the more extensive written study of the law and the covenants that begins here: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/law-study.cfm Nothing else opened up the beauty and brilliance of the Bible for me and the beauty of Jesus Christ like a full understanding of the covenants. For a short paper on the Sabbath that addresses most of the key texts in question, I recommend "Is Sabbath Observance Required for New Covenant Christians" by Pastor Clay Peck. You can download it here: http://www.graceplace.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.&page=informed_Covenant There are also several other good articles on this page. I would also point you to the white papers on the Sabbath and the law that the World Wide Church of God commissioned when it made the transition into evangelical Christianity. These papers are truly excellent and thorough works. You can find them here: http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/default.htm Finally, I will point you to one resource that is not free, but that I believe to be the absolute best work on the subject available. If you are serious about understanding why so many Christians believe our true Sabbath rest is not a day at all, it is Jesus Christ Himself; this is THE book to read. It's called "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaf and you can get it here: http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001718178 If you are interested in a dialogue on this topic, please at least check out a couple of the free resources, then get back to us with what you think. I'm sure there are many on this group who are willing to discuss the topic in a loving, gentle, open-minded, non-confrontational, non-judgmental, and Christ-like way. We look forward to hearing from you! May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you in your study and in your journey. Your brother in Christ, Chris Lee Lincoln, NE | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
Hi Chris & Hoytster, I thank you for responding with respect. I am at work and don't have time to check out all the online stuff right now but I will later tonight. Right of the cuff I would like to say that I have carefully examined all NT texts that deal with the Sabbath issue and fail to come to the same conclusion that the Sabbath command has been abolished. What I see is our righteous Savior correcting the legalistics who made a mockery of the Sabbath. He was teaching them that He is the Lord of the Sabbath and above the Law. Certainly one could come to think that Jesus was doing away with the Sabbath altogether and I have no problem with that, it is just not what I believe Jesus was attempting to do. I believe that if Jesus meant to abolish the 4th commandment He would have said so in no uncertain terms. YET, (imho) the laws and the commandments of God are sometimes not spelled out exactly and observance of them is a personal decision. I will worship when and where I wish from now on, but my prayer is to find a group that worships on Saturday without preaching that it is mandatory for salvation. Yes I know that a worship service is not equated with Sabbath observance, I am still strugling with how I will spend my Saturdays. The last two Saturdays I have watched some Sports on TV and even went shopping, although I did feel some remorse for it. I am praying that I can fill my Saturdays with reading and prayer and good works. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Welcome, Imunity! I second Chris's recommendations. There is also an excellent Bible study on this page by Greg and Paula Taylor re: the covenants and the Sabbath. Imunity and Hoytster, the Sabbath was never "changed." In fact, I really don't think anyone except the Adventists and the Catholics teach that the Sabbath was "changed". The Sabbath, however, along with the whole law, was fulfilled. That's why you have to study the covenants and not just do a search for the word "Sabbath". The Sabbath (along with the whole old covenant) represented the coming Messiah. HE is the fulfillment of every law, ceremony, and symbol of the OC. Jesus himself in the form of the Holy Spirit has replaced the law as our authority when we are born again. The very interesting fact that I could not explain for years as an Adventist was that truly observant, dedicated Christians would grow more and more conformed to the picture of a law-abiding life AFTER covenrsion--with the exception of keeping the seventh day. That one thing never seemed to be one of the marks of a truly born-again Christian. I remember that I used to try to understand why, if salvation was by grace alone, the seventh-day was required of us since it wasn't an automatic result of being born again as was the embracing of all the other nine principles of the Ten Commandments. Along with your other reading, Imunity and Hoytster, I suggest that you read the book of Galatians every day for one month. Ask God to teach you what he wants you to know and to open His truth to you. You are both in my prayers. Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Imunity, Welcome. Here is my suggestion. Do whatever you wish on Saturday: Worship, rest, refrain from whatever you wish. We here have no problem with you doing that. So long as you do it to honor God, it is right. I and others could deluge you with scripture, but, as you said, you have studied this and are not convinced. Sure, you can study the suggested materials. Unless you wish to hear our perspective for whatever reason, there is no need for an argument here. No matter how your studies turn out: God bless you! Jerry | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
I too second the suggestion of reading Galatians every day for a month. Or as long as it takes for it to open it's beautiful truths to you. I would add this one caviat, read it ALONE, without commentaries, "church" instructions (from any source), trusting on prayer and the Holy Spirit alone to provide the insight. In order to understand it I literally had to pray that all former knowledge or ideas would be taken from me, no matter the source, and that the Holy Spirt would teach me the truth as it is, not the way I think it is, have been taught it is, want it to be, or think it should be. Even then, it took awhile for me to understand what Jesus had for me. Good blessings on your search for truth. Some things the Spirit will bring to you will be hard to except, but listen to HIM through God's word. In His Grace <>< Thomas | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Imunity, My suggestion (aren't we a suggestive crowd) would be to claim James 1:5-7 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;" If you really desire to know the truth and are willing to give up everything and take up the cross God will show you very clearly the truth. He is the best source! The Spirit will teach you in ALL things. Galatians is where He showed me, it's a great book to read prayerfully. Just tell God you are going to read it and ask Him to speak to you what He wants you to understand from it. Blessings to you! Sabra | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Hi Imunity, Welcome! I will second Sabra's suggestion to claim James 1:5-7 everytime you study. Pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance asking for "the truth as it is" as Thomas suggested. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." I John 2:27 The following chapters were very revealing when I let the Holy Spirit be my teacher. II Corinthians chapter 3 All of Galations Colossians chapter 2 Hebrews chapter 4 "O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." Ps. 34:8 Trust the Holy Spirit to guide you. Leigh |
