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Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, your mention above of asking whether it was ever wrong to worship God reminded me of my questioning whether we should just do "good" on the Sabbath day as Jesus said it was "lawful" to do...Shouldn't we "do good" all the time?

The above mentioned special issue of the Review (September 2003) has a "Top 10" list (page 31) of "Reasons to spend Sabbath mornings in church":

Here's #9:

"The versatility of your church bulletin makes it a fan, a paper plane, a fly swatter, or an origami animal--and tells you when the sun sets in your community".

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I remember... "Sundown" times--to the minute--were often included in the bulletin, just in case you misplaced your comprehensive Friday evening/Saturday night "sundown calendar"... distributed yearly at church.

Vital info to know in planning your life in Christ! (You just never know what sin you might have to STOP doing if the "edges" of the Sabbath were drawing near on Friday; or what you might get to START doing on a Saturday night!

grace always,
cindy
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Question 1:
In the very first instance recorded in the Bible where God explicitly commanded people to ìdo no workî and have a ìholy Convocation,î what day of the week was it?

Exodus 12:16 on the fourteenth day of the first month there was to be a Holy convocation and a day in which no manner of work was to be done. We are not told what day of the week this is. However, if you trace the timeline to Exodus 16 where the first Sabbath day is declared you can calculate what day of the week it was. It is a little hard because Hebrew months went by the moon (29 or 30 days). You count backwards. It is a little imprecise, but however you do it, it comes somewhere around Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday.

Question 2: What command from God (that the SDAís no longer require) was pronounced by Jesus and the Old Testament as more important that the Sabbath such that, in keeping this command, you could break the Sabbath day, yet not sin?

John 7:22,23 Circumcision, of course. This was so important as a sign of entry into Judaism. Yet today, it is not required because a Christian is "circumcised" through baptism (a circumcision of the heart) So, if this "everlasting" sign changed, why is it so hard to believe that the Sabbath day (which was less important) changed to the rest in Jesus? Stone is very hard.

Question 3: In the verses where we see ìFor the Son of man is lord (even) of the Sabbath day,î the term ìSon of manî refers to Jesus, but it also has another meaning in Hebrew/Aramaic. If you know the dual meaning, there is more significance to the phrase. This makes the fact that this is a conclusion derived from the facts in the previous verses even more significant. What does ìSon of Manî mean, besides Jesus?

The "Son of Man" translates, in Hebrew to ben 'adam or "son of Adam." It is a Hebrew and Aramaic term meaning "ordinary man." So look at the verses in Mark again.

[27] And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
[28] Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Try substituting the other meaning:

Instead of "The Son of man (Jesus) is Lord also of the Sabbath." try "The Son of man (an ordinary man) is Lord also of the Sabbath." Interesting, don't you think.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The title of this thread is Cultural Adventism. I took an university sociality class awhile back at the local public university. California State University, Fresno to boil it down to which one. In one of my textbooks were chapters on the main cultures that have evolved within the United States over the past hunderd(s) of years and Mormon is counted at a distinct and seperate culture. Mind you, this was NOT a class on religions within the United States but was a class on the distinct cultures within my homelnd.
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello. I went to a very conservative SDA church one Sabbath a few months back to please my family, as we had special family members in town who wanted to attend.

This is a small, held in a house, soon to build a church, church consisting of mostly old people...They offered the microphone for testimonies and this one old lady went up front and gave a testimony that she had called into a television evangelistic show and how she had shared the 10 Commandments with them...she went on and on about how grateful she was to God for giving the 10 Commandments...I mean on and on and on...and how proud she was to be in the "truth". Not one word of sharing Jesus, or what Jesus had done for her...sad.

The whole church was really behind her though...they were congratulating her on her witnessing.

Same thing happened at the other church I attend, which is more liberal with conservative pockets...it recently split by the way...they decided they couldn't worship with us and needed to get back to Ellen.

(The whole thing makes me sick and I can hardly stand to go there...however, Christ has enabled me to worship with anyone...any day of the week! Amen? So I go for my family even though I have to sit there and grit my teeth and what is amazing is...the Holy Spirit alerts me the minute something is out of line with scriputure...I will give an example in a minute.)

Anyway, in the adult SS class, this doctor gets up and tells his witnessing story, guess what he witnessed to? Vegetarianism! Yes, that was his big opportunity to witness, forget Jesus. I was totally exasperated.

The comment someone made above about the uses of the bulletin rings so true to me. Have you ever noticed how shallow a lot of the SDA are? They are more worried about their Sabbath dinners burning than the sermon...kids go in and out, talking goes on...kids cry, no one cares. But, the saddest part is...people are not awake to deception. Here is the example I am talking about.

2 Sabbaths ago was the stewardship sermon that comes around pretty often. To make a long story short, the preacher quotes a text from the Living Translation (one that most SDA think is inferior b/c is isn't KJV) it was Deut. 14:23 and only a part of 23. Here it is staring me in the face on the overhead screen...

"The purpose of tithing is to teach you to always put God first."

I am sitting there thinking Deut. 14? I know that text, it is one of my favorites and it doesn't say that...but I forgot my bible, the first time in a long time. As I look around, no one seems alarmed...I see several different translations of the Bible open (including the Clear Word) and no one looks puzzled.

Anyway, I go home and as it happens I have the Living Translation...here is text 23 in it's entirety that would never have worked for him if he had accurately reproduced it.

"22You must tithe all your crops every year. 23Bring this tithe to EAT before the Lord your God at the place he shall choose as his sanctuary; this applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn of your flocks and herds.The purpose of tithing is to teach you to always put God first."

Ok, but what I really love about this verse is it really takes God out of the SDA box!!!! Read it in the NIV.

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

First of all, the tithe referred to here is crops, etc. Only was it money if the place the people were to celebrate in front of the Lord was too far...then they could exchange it for money to feast on! He told them to get whatever would make a happy celebration for them...wine, strong drink, meat!!!!! Isn't that the coolest? What an awesome God we serve! He sure isn't the Puritanical God Ellen portrayed!

Anyway...this pastor could never have used the entire verse because it goes against everything SDA's hold dear...abstinance, vegetarianism and tithing!
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone ever read Plain Truth Magazine? Wow, it it pretty cool...click on this link to read about Christians and alcohol...it wasn't grape juice!!!!!!


http://www.ptm.org/03PT/JulAug/greatGrape.htm
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You go girl. it is sad that you were probably the only one who even thought about it.They were they sitting hoping he hurried up so they could go eat there veggie burger. I rember the same story a real conservative who was so ahppy he got to wittness to his grandson ov vacation. It was about not eatting pork. Where is Jesus and I thought that before I ever doubted the church. Sorry to urt anyones feelings who still eat veggie burger it just that that is more important to them then the word of God. I sure pray that some day you may enjoy a sermon and here the true word of God.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, The Plain Truth Magazine is still around?! That is the magazine by Herbert W. Armstrong of The Worldwide Church of God. Eithor me or Denise can fill you in with great detale abuut the WCG. To their credit the ministers at their Headquarters in Pasadena, Ca. after HWA died led the WCG to Christianity. The local SDA church rents their social hall on Saturday afternoons to some leftover HWA devotees. You can read the book, "From Cult to Christian" by a man whose last name is Trask. It is an interesting read.
Pheeki (Pheeki)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, I get the newsletter from them online...I didn't realize the plain truth was WCG. It seems like a pretty good magazine...I wish the SDA's would have the courage they have shown to correct error...but Ellen is the barrier with SDA's...they cannot quit worshipping that Golden Calf!
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read some of the Q/A they were pretty good. Thanks there were a few things that helped me. I think I am just learning some more things that God is showing me. It is hard out here in the world of Grace and freedom for us people who thought we knew everything and had all the answers. It is hard to find your way when it is not out there in detail anymore. Well that is some of the problem I think I am having is that other churches have there own list of being the right kind of christian. and that is what I just can not deal with. Well I think I have been shown that I can go to a church and worship God and still not have their same values and not feel guilt for not and they will not make me feel guilt for that. God has brought me to far for that. I would say that I am in a very active and great church it was just they fall into as I think most churches into keeping free from sin and sinners. I read this great book and it talks about how most chistians have not time for sinners and would not accept them. That is the struggles I have had. Well I am seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. I feel it is because of all your prayers.
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All this talk about "witnessing." I remember not too long ago being in the home of an SDA friend, and 3ABN was on the TV. It was a Saturday morning, so they were having "church" somewhere on 3ABN. Anyway, they talked about some important person that was going to come on and give their testimony. Now, I've learned since leaving the SDA church that testimony in most other churches means telling how you were saved, or came to know the Lord. This guy, and I have no idea who he was, got on there and talked about how he had been a "Sunday-keeper" and gave a nice long "testimony" on how he was convicted of the Sabbath, the state of the dead, that the Pope is the mark of the beast, etc. I wonder what other Christians think when they come across stations like 3ABN.

After that another program came on and all they talked about was some poverty stricken area in Africa where there was no SDA presence, and how they told the mayor or whatever (sorry, I don't remember the details at all) how they needed this radio station there to be an SDA station, how it would save lives, make their people healthier, keep their people off alcohol, drugs, etc. blah blah blah.

It just really struck me how both programs I heard that day just went on & on about how great SDAs are, how important the Sabbath is, etc., etc., and like you've all commented, no mention of Jesus and His mercy and grace, salvation, the gospel, etc.

Frustrating!
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought I posted something about 3ABN, but can't find it, so if I did sorry. Weird thing is, 3ABN just started coming through on my TV, what a load of, well, I'll be nice. I know if I were flipping through and came across it, not knowing what it is I'd think, what a bunch of nuts! This guy on It is Written just looks so smug while he tells you of all the wicked being cast into the lake of fire because they followed the traditions of men. (Funny, when Jesus talked about traditions of men it was to the Sabbath keeping Jews) He is so arrogant and even appears angry instead of the love and compassion you get for the lost on most christian television shows.

One thing that was really weird, ( I don't watch this much but I have to stop sometimes while flipping through) this preacher was on there talking about the baptism of the Spirit, that it was separate from water baptism etc..and I never knew they believed that. Anyone else heard of that?

Looks like a lot of vege cooking shows and just hokey stuff.
Madelia (Madelia)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 3:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, when my husband has the TV on, it's almost constantly on 3ABN! I can't stand it! One time I heard Danny Shelton, the owner of the station, comment that Jesus is delaying His return until we all become perfected!

And I agree, all of those so-called testimonies are just talking about how they came to know the truth, which to them is the Sabbath truth
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There may be a book called "From Cult to Christianity", but the book about the transformation of the WCG is called, "Transformed by Truth", and it's by Joseph Tkatch, the director general of the church who led the denomination into the freedom of the gospel.

Speaking of delaying Jesus' coming, I find it almost blasphemous now when I hear people talk about our work or our unwillingness to "finish the work" delaying Christ's return. If God is sovereign, he is not waiting for us to finish any work. Besides, the Holy Spirit is the one who does and finishes the work. We are the agents through whom He works.

While I believe we can accept or rejct God's call to us to do his work, still we cannot say that we are responsible for whether or not Christ delays his coming. If Christ's return were dependent upon us, then he would not be sovereign over us. We, on the other hand, would have power over Him. We could delay or hurry our "work", and we could effect Jesus' return according to OUR time schedule!

We worship a sovereign God who is over everything in all creation. We are so arrogant when we assume that we know how he functions or thinks, and our self-centeredness is out-of-bounds when we believe that we KNOW when and how he will do things! What we know is that he has prepared in advance the work he wants each of his people to do, and we know he calls us to surrender and to embrace his will for us on an ongoing, ever-deepening basis. We also know that HE completes the work he begins in us; we do not complete our own character growth. We grow in him, and he keeps changing our hearts.

It's ALL about Jesus! Praise Him!

Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Those were excellent thoughts about the sovereignty of God. I never thought of it like that before, that God is not dependent upon US for scheduling Christ's second coming. If that was the case, as you indicated, we could simply control and postpone His return date by not "finishing the work." Unfortunately, the following quotation from Ellen White is still emblazed in my memory:

"Christ is waiting with a long desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be PERFECTLY reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own" (COL, p. 69).

Regretfully, I often cited this quotation in my perfectionist-type sermons as an SDA minister. It was a rallying cry in Adventism to contemplate this quotation to produce the utmost guilt and shame. Legalists/perfectionists are always at least one step short of their goal (never quite good enough). What a relief to know that Jesus Christ is our Substitute and Savior! Thus, when God looks upon His elect, He only sees Jesus.

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praise God that we have found this new light in our lives. The quilt of not wittnessing and not saving that person or keeping Jesus from coming back. We sure had control of may things. NOT! The longer you are away the more crazy it all sounds. Please continue to keep the five year old who has cancer in your prayers he is going through Chemo now and it is taking atoll on that little body. My husband and daughter will be running in a 5k Sunday it will be held at the local SDA church it will be fun to say the least on my part. I just really hate to be around it I get a sick feeling but I have to support the family. It was not our former church but you know how it is in the SDA church everyone knows everyone. Well God Bless you all out there in cyberspace.
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is also a book called "Out of the Shadows", which was written by a former WWCG minister. He talks about moving away from some of those feast days (including the Sabbath) and how painful it was. He talked about how he had alienated his family because of his superior religion, etc. But he really goes through the whole process as a minister in the field when these questions were addressed and how it rang in the pews at the local level. It was why I ultimately decided SDA would never really change ... EGW has been dead a long time, yet people still cling to her. Armstrong has been dead less time and they were able to see the truth once he was gone. Shows the extent of the network EGW had supporting her, while Armstrong was pretty much a one-man band, in that his ideas were from him and not necessarily meeting someone else's agenda, as it seems EGWs may have been. Unfortunately, I don't remember the author's name right now, but I know it is available on equip.org. Reading his book was how I learned how really poorly I was addressing the errors within B's religious structure trying to "witness" to him to the truth of scripture. I also learned how those shadow feasts foreshadowed Christ in a way I hadn't seen before. It was interesting. This guy is now a Lutheran minister.
Hoytster (Hoytster)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Rea's "The White Lie" I gather that writing her books was the White family business, now carried on by the White estate. Rea indicates that the SDA ministry and church-goers were open to reform in the last few decades, but that has been resisted by the administration, which I take to mean the paid staff of the SDA church hierarchy.

Does all this resolve to a profit motive? (Oh, there's a pun available!) Ellen White is the livelihood of too many SDAs to abandon?

And Armstrong simply did not have the royalty base as a motive for his follower to carry on?

- Hoytster (being cynical, but not liking it)
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The position of EGW within the church has fascinated me as an outsider. I do not understand the loyalty to her. Some of the things she has said are ridiculous. I still remember B adamantly defending her stance that skirts were too long and therefore "unhealthy" for women to wear. And the God that won't change a day of rest will command his women regarding clothing one day, yet not care the next??

I liked Rea's book, but I thought it was "too polite" or sugar-coated, probably because it was the first book. White Washed (By Sydney Cleveland??) and White Out were less politically correct and are more obvious in their evidence, but the BEST book I think out on her was written by Canright and is available via download. I found his books (Adventism Renounced, the one about the Catholic church not changing the Sabbath, and the one on EGW (life and times or something like that)) were extremely credible not only because of their thoroughness, but because he was a contemporary of EGW. He's not merely looking into the past, but talking about things available at the time. It dismisses a lot of claims to "ignorance" in my opinion. People accepted what they were told, and didn't verify it otherwise. And a lot of us do that...finger is pointing both ways.

I have read the church does receive a percentage from the sale of her books, plus I think it keeps members in the church since many of the doctrines are based upon her "visions".

Maybe Armstrong didn't write as many books as she did?? That book I mentioned says that Armstrong actually studied EGW and took some of her ideas for his theology as well.

If you want specifics on where to find the books or the exact titles, I can look them up. I have them at home.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hoytster, the SDA church really is a huge business. It's public front, of course, is religion, but behind the scenes there is incredible corruption and conflict of interest among many of the highly placed paid staff.

The worst financial schemes, it seems from my limited research, are at the top. Even Robert Folkenberg, the Gen. Conf. president who was demoted from office about four years ago because of being sued for a large outstanding debt from a business partner is still, apparently, a church employee, although he has a very low profile now. His lawsuit, interestingly enough, was resolved by a large payment from Risk Management, the denominational self-insurance body that insures all denominational employees. No explanation for how they justified using church money to satisfy a "personal" debt was ever offered. I know that the legal department of the GC was surprised by the settlement, and outraged as well.

The reality was that Folkenberg was definitely representing the church while pursuing huge business deals with partners the church would never officially acknolwedge, yet it appeared the church was benefiting from Folkenberg's "deals". It was very hard to get facts of Folkenberg's blurring the lines between personal profit and compromise for the sake of church profit from people who would go on record with the evidence, yet the circumstancial evidence was huge, and indicting comments/questions came from several well-placed people who had reason to know.

Yes, EGW and her husband James had quite a comfortable financial arrangement going for themselves. James was an entrepreneur by nature, and he definitely used EGW's writings to make money through his publishing business. Canright's book on EGW (Her Life and Time) states that in 1914, I believe (at any rate shortly before she died), her royalties from her books totalled 100,000 that year. Notice how much the dollar would have been worth in 1914. She owned a home in California and another in Australia-- yet she handled her money badly enough that her heirs had to pay her debts.

It's really interesting to see that the same fascination with profit, the same loose handling of truth, the same personal compromise that James and Ellen indulged are hallmarks of the denomination today.

The reason Adventists are so deeply, subliminally tied to Ellen--even if they say they don't believe she was a prophet--is that there is a spirit of deception which was her legacy to the church. Adventists grow up under that spirit, and they do not consciously recognize it. (Most Adventists who disavow EGW will still not be willing to call her a false prophet.)

It is only by embracing Jesus and allowing the Holy Spirit to heal one's heart and replace the Adventist spirit of deception that one is able to break free of the deep hold EGW and the church has on one's soul.

Praise Jesus for conquering Satan and his evil spirits on the cross. We serve a victorious king; no evil imposter can claim us when we embrace the Lord Jesus!

Colleen
Hoytster (Hoytster)
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 6:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting response, Colleen. Thank-you.

I have some semi-personal experience with the secrecy you describe. In the Boston area (Stoneham, MA), an Adventist hospital was driven into bankruptcy by a new top (SDA) administrator. My source of information is a physician affiliated with the hospital at the time. According to my physician friend, this administrator arrived without significant wealth, and left a few years later with a net worth of six million dollars, as the hospital failed. It was never clear how he acquired his millions, but the implication was that he somehow stole it.

What most annoyed my (SDA) physician friend was that the repeated complaints and demands for an audit, voiced by my friend and others, were ignored by the relevant supervisors. (Are they bishops? Board members? I can't remember. Some conference-level folk, I think.) It was all hushed over, and the suddenly-rich administrator left with glowing recommendations.

It is as though the SDAs need to maintain the appearence of being better than the everyday human. Perhaps it relates to EW's direction to drive to perfection? (If I have that right?) As the remnant church, God's chosen, SDAs have to conform to the highest standard. So when someone steals from the hospital, it becomes theologically imperative to hide that fact. They cannot accept that they are sinners, like everyone else.

Obviously I'm speculating wildly, as an outsider in several respects. Thanks for your patience with me, everyone.

- Hoytster

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