| Author | Message | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
It's been kind of quite on this board for the last couple of days so I thought I might take the opportunity to share a letter to the editor that appeared in the Lincoln (NE) Journal Star on Sept. 22 at the height of the 10 Commandments monument controversy. This article is by an old SDA professor of mine, Ward Hill, who I studied under at Union College. He has retried from UC, I believe, but still teaches a Sabbath School class at College View SDA Church. My in-laws have been talking with Professor Hill in an effort to learn how to refute our Christian faith and bring us back into the the SDA fold. In fact, my father-in-law told us that he never even wants to hear what we believe until such time as we can first convince Professor Hill that he is wrong. I can't help, but feel this article is partly directed at my wife and I (especially the part about "certain groups who tell us that the Ten Commandments have been nailed to the cross and abolished. Those who maintain that we are no longer under the law as Christians"). I very seriously considered responding with another letter to the editor, but I believe it does the cause of Christ little good for unbelievers to see this type of disunity and debate in public forums. I am however very interested in your comments and analysis of this op-ed piece. He seems to be saing that while we're not directly saved by the law, we are still very much under the law. What do you think? Everything below my signiture is a quote from the piece. Chris Lee "I share many of the points made by Pastor Leon Rosenthal (Local View, Sept. 11) in his corrective analysis of professor Leon Satterfield's previous column limiting the influence of the Ten Commandments on American life. I was particularly impressed by Rosenthal's observation that much of social justice can be traced in American life to the keeping of the Sabbath. "It may come as a surprise to some that the Sabbath commandment says nothing about Sunday observance. It is most explicit that the "seventh day is the Sabbath." Jewish people clearly recognize this and of course observe Saturday, the seventh day of the week, as their day of worship.What many may not realize is that there are thousands of Christians in Lincoln who also observe Saturday as their day as worship, along with millions of Christian people in other parts of the world. "Many people will say, what difference does it make, whether you worship God on Saturday or Sunday, so long as you worship God? This view fails to recognize that only God can make what we may call "holy time." True, I could declare the third day of the week as holy time and observe it accordingly. But who gave me the authority to make it holy? We all owe much to the Jewish people, but they are not the ones who made the Sabbath. The Sabbath comes down to us from the Garden of Eden, having been made at the time when the earth was created. But inasmuch as a great portion of educated people do not accept the Biblical story of creation as a literal event as described in Book of Genesis, the seventh day has lost its sacred origin. "The religious people across the United States who are showing strong emotion as the Ten Commandment monuments are removed from public property obviously do not agree with certain groups who tell us that the Ten Commandments have been nailed to the cross and abolished. Those who maintain that we are 'no longer under the law' as Christians fail to realize that it is the law of God that defines what sin is. The law was never intended to be our savior. As Christians, it is our Savior who gives us the strength to obey the law." - Ward Hill, Lincoln | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Where do you begin...and how do you hold your tongue ... and how do you uphold Christ all at the same time? | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I guess the most frustrating part to me is the issue of "holy time" as he refers to it here. B has come to decide that it is not wrong per se to worship God on Sunday, but since it is not God's holy day it is not the same, therefore he still has to worship on Saturday. That sounds too much like the argument this guy is making. Is he really saying that if it's not Saturday, worship is somehow less significant or valid or meaningful? Another error he makes is the grand assumption that going to church on Sunday or any other day means we are "creating" holy time. ANY time I am in the presence of God, it is holy...in that it is set apart for me and him. Do I really have to wait for Saturday for "holy time"? That's sure how it sounds. More than that, the arguments sound more philosophical in nature than Biblical. I still can't believe SDAs really think it is ever WRONG to worship God. How can that even be logical? Do SDAs give any real thought to the sermon on the mount? and what Christ was really saying? The standards Christ set were way beyond what the law ever said. I'll shut up now. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
The best advice is still straight from the "Book". Brother Paul said it best. Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned. No need to say more or get involved in "disputes about the Law". Thank God He always makes things clear when we stay ONLY to the Book. In His Grace. <>< Thomas | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thomas, great point! There's absolutely no way to argue with such a person. Chris, I can only imagine how it must be for you to have conversations with your parents. They live near you, I infer? You were wise to decide not to answer, I believe. I'm convinced that in such situations (and I'm sure you're right about that letter being partially directed toward you) people will only use anything you might say or write as more fuel for their fire. The man's arguments completely miss the point and twist scripture for his own benefit. I just have to echo Thomas above: "Thank God He always makes things clear when we stay ONLY to the Book." Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I understand the point about not arguing, but I'm more concerned for people who could be persuaded by an argument that appears to have no good response. People who are already under that theology are one thing, but what is the responsibility towards those who are not, but might be pulled in? (Not that they're looking to the editorial pages for their theology...just a question in general.) | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Colleen, yes we live in the same town with my wife's parents. We used to live in the same Adventist neighborhood around the college, were very close with them, and saw them pretty much daily. We now live a few of miles away in a different neighborhood and have an extremely strained relationship. Basically they have stated either directly to us, or in some cases to friends and other family who have passed on the messages, that we are harming our children and that out children have a right to know the truth, that our salvation is now in doubt, that we are in effect now serving Satan, that we really know better but are being deliberately rebellious against the truth, and that my wife is forced by me to go along with me on this. It's a very very painful situation for my wife in particular. She has pleaded more than once with them to let us show them what we believe from the Bible alone, but as stated in my previous post they have absolutely refused to hear even a word of it. All they know is that we are not attending an Adventist church and that is all they need to hear. They say we are just twisting the Bible so we can live anyway we want and they don't want to hear about it. The thing that bothers me the most is that neither one of them spends any significant time in the Bible at all (other than going through the SDA Sabbath School lessons). Neither one has actually read through even just the NT. Just in casual conversation I once asked my Father-in-law if he had ever read Galations, he looked at me with a set jaw and said in a very steely tone of voice "No!". It was such an adamant "No" that it clearly conveyed the message, "No, and I'm not going to either!" When pressed on why he believes what he believes its not becasue he's ever really studied, it's because he knows people who have studied like Ward Hill and he trusts that they are right. He also says he knows people that have decided to start keeping the Sabbath and have prayed about it and their jobs and such have just worked out in answer to prayer so it must be right. It's exasperating........sorry for the long winded whining and complaining.......I just had to get a little pent up frustration out. Chris | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Oh wow, Chris, I'm praying for you and your wife. That is a very difficult situation | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Chris, Adventist relatives are usually most difficult to reach with the awe-inspiring gospel of Jesus Christ. I have found that sharing my faith with SDA friends and acquaintances is much more productive. Our interaction with SDA relatives should emphasize the finished work of Christ in our behalf. Importantly, our continuous prayers and Christian example will activate heavenly plans. Being Christ is secondary in many of their doctrines, the "veil" (2 Cor. 3:15,16) covers their hearts as they struggle under legalism. It is most important to remember that, except for the amazing grace of God, we would still be under "the ministry of death" as well. It is very difficult not to be impatient with our loved ones, especially when they actively oppose us. I truly know your concern and anguish. Most of our SDA relatives have given us the "silent treatment." My mother-in-law, for example, has removed our names from her will, and the estate will now go to the SDA Conference. She did, however, allow a few hundred dollars for us. Apparently, this was done solely to avoid a legal challenge after her death. We can take comfort in knowing that God will make it up to us for all the heartaches this life may confront us with. What miracle of divine grace that we escaped the darkness of Adventism! How can we ever thank Him enough? Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Chris, I can relate to all of that exactly, except that I live 10 hours from my mom and step dad and could not even imagine living close. There is not one thing you can do, except to pray, honestly my mother and I have to be on very superficial, cordial, terms that involve no discussion of religion. Their offensive reaction to anything contrary to SDA is so ridiculous. They will not consider anything that might sway them from the "truth". Best thing to do is remember that God knows your struggle and He is there and you just have to follow Him. Your testimony to them is your life, let your light shine! Sabra | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Chris, Dr. H. Ward Hill lives near my home--walking distance. Being he is not computer-savvy, I share the latest negative news in Adventism with him weekly and sometimes daily. I figure he gets all the positive news from the Adventist Review, Mid-American Outlook, etc. (smile). I frequently challenge his legalism. He left a note about the Ten Commandments again today in my garage. He keeps using the same old proof texts despite my telling him that his hermeneutics are faulty. Despite his earlier lofty positions, I never cease to be amazed at his ignorance about Adventist theology and history. Sadly, he has no concept of the Spirit-led life; his only moral compass is the law of Moses. His wife says that the Apostle Paul is hard to understand. Being he is highly respected in this Adventist community, this makes it even more difficult for him to become a seeker for Christ. You were wise not to publicly respond to his piece in the local paper. It would just draw attention to the Law anew. He is very proud of being "settled in the truth." A favorite tactic of his, when confronted with a doctrine that he can't biblically defend, is saying, "Let's write to each other about this; otherwise, we just talk past each other." This gives him time to consult the SDA Bible commentary and/or his favorite commentators (Ellen White and F. D. Nichol). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
How incredibly sad. Chris and his in-laws, Dennis and his mother-in-law, Sabra and her parents. What is lost is the big picture, the main point. If you had to pick one word to characterize Jesus's message, what would it be? For me: love. He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" This is Jesus talking! So, are your relatives loving you, by shunning you, by cutting you out of their will? I guess the "SDA flip" is that they are being loving by striving to make you believe what they believe to be a precious truth. So harsh, though! I'm simple, and no scholar. I say love your neighbor, and let God sort out the theological minutia. All mysteries will be known someday! That seems compatible with the Titus scripture that Thomas I posted. Stay out of the fray, and concentrate on that Great Commandment. That's enough challenge for me. You have my heartfelt sympathy. - Hoytster | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Dear Chris my heart breaks for you and your wife. It is so hard when you have someone telling you you are lost and following satan who you loved and cared for. It is hard when your closest friends do not know what to say to you. It is hard when you have seen the light and they continue in darkness and tell you how wrong you are. I have no words of wisdom I can just send prayers for your family to God. I have pretty much cut off all dealings with people who I had been very close to it is to hard to face that your going to Hell stuff all the time. When in my heart I feel if they do not change some of their thinking they are going to be lost. I have never told them what I think but they sure tell me. My husband likes to run in the local SDA churches 5k so he and my daughter ran. After the race they were up their preaching about health I kid you not all were way way over weight and none ran in the race but they were speaking to these healthy runners about health. Its funny once you are out and the further you are away the crazier it all sounds. Just know there are those of us who know how you are feeling and how they treat you. We are here for you. God Bless | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, If this man leaves stuff in your garage and contacts you, might as well say your peace. Have you ever pointed out to him that Christians in general do not view Sunday as the Sabbath? That usually just throws a curve into all of the arguements and superstitions. And the fact that Christianity isn't a forced religion. Jesus never told anyone to force anyone to follow Him or kill anyone for not following, so all of that 10 commandment, Sunday law hype is so ridiculous. I can see how some crazy woman could have started up some hype a hundred years ago, I just can't believe it has gone on this long and fooled this many people. | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
That's a funny (strange) thing you point out, Terryk. I've made that same observation. Not so healthy! One of my earliest SDA events, about 10 years ago, was seeing "Gifted Hands" author Ben S. Carson lecture at the local SDA hospital / school complex. I had been looking forward to it, because all I knew about SDAs at a time was that many were vegetarians, which I thought was a healthy life-style, so I was expecting to see a very healthy-looking crowd. Fat, fat, fat! My recall is that the audience was considerably heavier than a cross-section of the population, like maybe 40-50% were *obese*! I was shocked! Perhaps this relates to the fact that the SDA church does well, recruiting among the poor, who have unhealthy eating habits. Anyway, it was a striking contrast to my other experience with vegetarians, who are as a rule much more trim than the average American. What proportion of SDAs are vegetarian, do you think? (I should mention that I should be displaying more modesty on this topic, being 35 pounds overweight, on the verge of obese.) - Hoytster | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Hoyster, from my purely subjective observation (I have not data available) I would tend to agree with you that the SDA population is at least as obese as the general population if not slightly more so. I chalk this up to the peculararities of the SDA "vegetarian" diet. In my experience most SDAs aren't really the bean sprout enthusiast that many secular vegetarians are. Rather, they tend to make dishes with lots of cheese, nuts, potatoes, and other starches and fats. Not to mention the SDA meat substitute products, many of which are extremely high in salt and fat (although they have been improving this in the last few years). I have seen data years ago showing that Adventist are healthier than the general population and live longer, but I wonder if this would hold true if they were compared directly to other conservative Christian groups of about the same socio-economic strata. I suspect the numbers would be a lot closer if you just looked at populations were there were relatively few smokers. It would be interesting to see. Chris | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Dennis, Ward Hill leaves notes in your garage?!?!?! Ha! Maybe that letter to the editor was actually meant for you :-) Chris | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
My in-laws eat no animal products at all. They spend a fortune on substitute products, I couldn't afford it if I wanted to. And as people have stated before, you might think this has made them healthier and leaner...wrong. My sister-in-law (though her food behaves, her appetite doesn't) is still eating at least 45 min. longer than anyone else at family gatherings. We are all done and laying around and she is still methodically going at it. But this same gluttonous person wouldn't hesitate to judge a poor alcohlic. Know what I mean? And she is quite rotund, never exercises at all. You know Ellen didn't really promote exercise...given the huge secular embrace of exercise (as well as vegetarianism...which SDA capitolize on) why didn't she see the exercise craze coming? It could have been the left hand of the Gospel! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The left hand of the gospel! That's funny! I was just asking Richard the other day what he thought that was! Chris, I'm so sorry for the pain in your family. I completely understand what you're going through. It's SO frustrating to be told you're putting your children at risk and that they must, therefore, be taught the truth. I remember feeling emotional and out-of-control when people near me showed signs of drifting from Adventist practices, let alone belief. I now see this deep fear and franticness as a symptom of the spiritual hold the church has on its members. It's really an irrational fear, in spite of their clear protestations. I remember feeling it myself. It's irrational, for sure! The greatest calming factor for me has been growing in the certainty that God is sovereign, and I can trust him with the misunderstanding, the shunning, the snide remarks, the accusations--you name it--because he is with me and is in the future. My angry loved ones are in his hand, and God will have the final word in their lives, not me. They may fight me, but they'll have a much harder time fighting the conviction of his Spirit! In the meantime, we take the arrows for Christ when our families and friends scorn or disrespect our decisions to follow Jesus. Sabbath rest is the most amazing miracle of my life! I really am aware of Jesus' presence with me daily, and he really does keep my heart peaceful when I would normally have been frantic. I am still amazed that I can feel his love for me, and that He keeps me in His will. I am so grateful for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Quote, "You know Ellen didn't really promote exercise...given the huge secular embrace of exercise (as well as vegetarianism...which SDA capitolize on) why didn't she see the exercise craze coming?" end quote Pheeki, since riding bicycles is a sin and she couldn't jog in that big black dress she always wore what was the girl to do? Adventists have nothing to do but eat, if they listen to Ellen they can't go to movies, dance, bowl or ride bikes so they eat. :X that wasn't nice, sorry. |
