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Sisyphus (Sisyphus)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those who might be interested in a larger view of the "tithe" issue and how organized religions have their ways to help the faithul support god's causes or "earn favor" with the given Diety of its faithful community, check out a book from Upton Sinclair entitled "The Profits of Religion". I found it very readable, fascinating and quite a rebuke towards the wolves in sheep's clothing. Warning, it can be rather unsettling at times as well. If any decide to check it out, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to read it all the way through before laying it down in offense or disgust. I think it had important lessons for us all, regardless of any given "profession of faith".

Although Sinclair is in effect a "muckraker", what he has to say as a whole made a lot of sense to me. He covers all the major "churches" and has a chapter on the "Church of the Quacks" in which Adventism is briefly mentioned in his usual scathing way.

And the suprise ending was rather intriguing, after getting the impression that he is totally anti-christian throughout the rest of the book. Reminded me of the old cliche, not to judge a book by its cover.

There are a lot of financial shenanigans whether in or outside of Adventism. Anybody watch Benny Hinn lately? Or how about this, "you can obtain a copy of our 6 cassette volume of "How to Pray, the Bible Way" for just $33.95..In it you will learn how to "really" pray the way god intended, and better your relationship with Him, blah, blah blah"

It's all around us people and shows up in oh so many guises. Like Walter Rae so scathingly calls them...the "Supersalesmen of the Psyche".
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BMorgan,

No, Dr. Kroll is not our pastor. I understand he is a member of the Berean Church, a large Evangelical church that has three services every weekend. Many BACK TO THE BIBLE employees attend the First Evangelical Free Church where my wife and I are members. They have had some layoffs recently due to financial shortages.

Dennis J. Fischer
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 5:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like some good books to read, Sisyphus. When I got some extra time, I will check into them.
Sisyphus (Sisyphus)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry2,

Just so you don't go searching fruitlessly, I only referred to one book, that from Sinclair. And that one is an oldie, first published in 1917, then 1926. But still timeless in my opinion.

Sinclair is better known for his book "The Jungle" in which he tried to show the plight of the exploited masses of meat packers in the Chicago stockyards. His humanitarian efforts seem to have been misinterpreted, because in his day, he only saw the effects that they cleaned up the unsanitary conditions and increased meat inspection efforts that effected the price of the product, not the working conditions of the people.

The "supersalesmen of the psyche" was just a term that Walter Rae used in his book "The White Lie" in which he exposed and denounced the title subject as it manifested itself to him in the Adventist worldview. I know book titles should be underlined, but I'm too inexperienced and lazy to figure out how to use special graphics in this format.

By the way, "Sisyphus" has calmed down a bit on the other discussion in case you want to rejoin him/me there.
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well actually I am the Sherry 2 that did rejoin you over there, and thanks "Scot" :) for the information. Have a great weekend. I'm gonna be out of town to Chicago with a girlfriend. Catch ya back on Monday.
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We just got our "The Sacred Journey of the Holy tithe" too....Yuck!!! Of course, and unfortunately my husband is interested in it. Pray that God opens his eyes to the lies in it if he choses to watch it...thank you.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praying Hard!!!

Unfortunately, since he may not understand the change in the Covenants, this may be a very HARD prayer.

Do you think it would do any good to offer to view it with him?

You would probably need to be fairly silent and wait for him to try to convince you.

On the other hand, that may be a useless suggestion.

God bless your family with his grace.


Jerry
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SherryóI'll pray for him, too. What a mass of confusion and lies wrapped in truth Adventism is. Just today Richard and I were discussing again how clever and effective and dangerous it is. It robs people of their assurance of salvation and of their freedom in Christ. New Christians and those ungrounded in the Bible are so vulnerable to it. And if you're already in itóit takes a miracle for God to open our eyes.

Colleen
Windmotion (Windmotion)
Posted on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 6:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, I'm sorry for forgetting, but is your husband still an Adventist? What does he think about you starting this fellowship?
On another note, I am very distrustful of organizations that send me vast amounts of literature for for free. We are always getting Lake Union Herald this and Michigan Memo that. We just got another new one called "Liberty" I know we didn't subscribe to. Makes me think they do not value their own publications if they think the people who reallly want to read them won't pay for them. (I do get a chuckle out of some of the articles however Did you read the one about the vegan restaurant? What a "ministry.") Hmmm. My husband joked we should pull our VCR out of its dusty cupboard just to watch the video b/c it contained such valuable information. My two cents.
--Hannah
P.S. I'm not sure why we are still on the conference mailing list. anyone know?
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hannah, if you are receiving "Liberty" it's probably because an sda has given your name to receive a "free" subscription - at least in my former church that's the only way anyone received Liberty, was by subscribing, and every year there was a call for names and "offerings" for subscriptions. so somebody is thinking of you! how nice! love and prayers, carol
Windmotion (Windmotion)
Posted on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmmm well that could be my husband's mom. She is still holding out hope he will come back to adventism, sends pamphlets occasionally about the Pope, persecution, etc. David has't been to the local adventist church for about a year. That Liberty magazine is very cleverly disguised. You have to look very carefully to find any adventist label at all.
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Stealing" from God??

The following was just printed in our local "Foursquare" church's magazine. In promoting their 10 week "Crown Financial Ministries" class, a recent testimony from a couple who completed a previous session was included:

"Going through the Crown Financial Ministries study has truly been life-changing for us. Step-by-step through the class, we studied what the Bible has to say about finances. It has been a real eye-opener to read in scripture that God considers it stealing from Him if we don't tithe...".

I can't imagine that I'm stealing from God by not returning 10 percent of my cash income to a church!

All of my time, my money, or any other resource is from God! I am very grateful to Him. I pray to be open to His Spirit in giving in any of these areas.

Do you think many churches just can't trust the Spirits' leading in their members lives?

Perhaps they feel they would cease to exist without this type of guilt-producing "motivational" speech!

Grace always,
Cindy
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,

You are most correct about many ministers and churches not supporting Spirit-led or grace-based giving. Having done extensive research on the topic of tithing, I emailed a message to the late Larry Burkett on the tithing issue. About a year ago, he stated on his radio program something like this to a caller, "Perhaps your wife is not a Christian if she continues to resist tithing."

First of all, THERE NEVER WAS A MONETARY TITHE for the Hebrew people. Tithe was only required from crops and animals. A large segment of the children of Israel did not pay any tithe at all (i.e., farm hands, weavers, construction workers, miners, weavers, handicraft workers, lumbermen, fishermen, retailers, manufacturers, miners, medical personnel, librarians, military personnel, government workers, etc.).

Let me introduce to you, Mr. and Mrs. Burden. Along with their children, Faith, Hope, and Love, they belong to a local church. They are experiencing problems in several areas of their lives. Part of their difficulties includes the following: currently behind on the rent; automobile problems; expectation of another child; no pay raises in sight; utilities being cut off in three days, two of their children are sick; and their dog Scruffy, is on medication.

They pray every morning and night for God to deliver them from their current troubles. The Burdens, strong in faith, are expecting the mighty hand of God to intervene. Mr. and Mrs. Burden are faithful tithers, and have been for years. They believe the Lord requires the first 10 percent of their income, even before the bills are paid. They are also taught to tithe even when they cannot afford it. Fearing that bad things will start to happen, this practice continues in spite of collection agencies threatening them for immediate payment.

The Burdens canot understand how financial problems can happen to them. They tithe faithfully, but the windows of Heaven seem to be slammed shut. Facing the possibility of their utilities being cut off, the Burdens decide to use their tithing money to ease the problem. Instead of giving it to the church, they use it for the utility bill in order to keep heat in their home. Fearing the curse for not tithing that week, they decide to ask their pastor for assistance.

Sunday is upon them, so the Burdens prepare themselves for church service. They cannot wait to get there because their church is on fire for the Lord! Their church is the way one should be, a church that is obedient to the word of God, and one whose members are not stuck on money. Yes, their church is one that believes in the rules and regulations of monetary tithing.

The church that the Burden's are members of is called Tither's Temple, and it is conveniently located on the corner of Tenth and Firstfruit. The name of their pastor should ring a bell. That's right! None other than the Rev. Dr. Pastor Tithe!

After the service, Mr. Burden approaches Pastor Tithe to explain to him their current situation, and to seek some form of financial assistance from the church. Pastor Tithe explains that he recently had a budget committee meeting and that church funds are limited due to thecurrent ministries--building fund, missions, parking lot, staff, phone bill, padded pews,computer needs, etc. Therefore, the church cannot make any financial contributions of this nature since it is not factored into the budget. So they pray instead. As the meeting continues, Pastor Tithe asks Mr. Burden, "Are you still tithing?"

Wow! What a heavy burden to place on someone when they are in financial need! Mr. Burden, a child of God, went to thechurch seeking help, but the church instead asks him for money! According to Pastor Tithe, those who tithe will receive a four-fold blessing. This is how Christians get out of the troubles they face.

Four years have elapsed since the Burdens were in need of help. Since then, they have gone to a consolidation agency to receive help with their financial crisis. They also received some money here and there from a couple of friends, but after missing three months rent, they were eventually evicted.

Although the Burdens received no church support outside of a prayer, God was still working behind the scene on their behalf. God worked through a Christian couple that operates a nonprofit organization. Not confined by traditional practices, this organization helped the Burdens by paying a month's rent for an apartment, along with the initial utility bill. Soon afterwards, Mrs. Burden found a higher paying job. In addition, their second youngest child is now in an all day first grade class, which means less day care costs. Furthermore, Mr. Burden finally received a modest cost of living increase for the first time in six years.

The Burdens rarely went to church during the past four years. They were turned off by the church they had been faithful members of for the previous nine years--due to their lack of support in their time of need. Since the current situation is looking up for them, they return to Tither's Temple and even start tithing once again from their income as they are taught. They saved up money for a down payment on a home, and have purchased a new car. With this new outlook on life, they, like Abram (Abraham) and Jacob (Israel), received new names. They are now known as Mr. and Mrs. Blessed because they now truly blessed by the Lord.

In the Book of Acts, Christians did not behave this way toward those in need--not giving to the living church made up of God's people. Christians are bombarded with Scriptures and personal stories about how returning tithes can help one's position in life. These arguments lead Christians to believe that life's problems are resolved, and happiness attained, by giving money to the local church. Christians today, therefore, do have good examples of how to prioritize their giving by observing the behavior of Christians in the Bible.

Dennis J. Fischer

PS: By the way, Crown Financial Ministries never responded to my plea for new covenant, Spirit-led stewardship. --DJF
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Dennis...

I know I have heard many, many stories about people who were "faithfully" paying their tithe and were blessed in unexpected ways...money coming in almost miraculously it seemed.

BUT... I also know those who have struggled immensely paying it...having trouble with their other bills.

AND, those who do NOT pay a "tithe" to a church or organization, but are definitely Christians, (giving in other areas and ways), who are blessed abundantly also!

I hate when I hear churches put this out as a REQUIREMENT from God!

Or else you are are stealing/robbing from Him! Like he is so concerned with 10 per cent of our cash!

I am so glad to be under the abudant riches of His grace!
Cindy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I love your parable! It's so true.

I'm realizing that when we as former Adventists carefully studied the Sabbath and found ourselves facing the New Covenant or bondage, we had to choose not just a worship day but an entirely new way to live all of life. The New Covenant really does put us on a "track" that is at odds even with many Christians' practices and understandings of the law.

I can see why Paul's epistles continually hammered at creeping legalism or other forms of heresy. It's part of human nature to want to "do the right thing" and to be recognized for good works. I think people fear that letting go of the law would create anarchy, and their fear keeps them from risking living entirely by faith in Jesus and the power of the Spirit.

I have to ask God continually to protect me from deception and arrogance. It's really easy to start making new "rules" when the old ones make no sense. Truly living by faith is a moment-by-moment challenge, but it is the only way to experience the freedom of Christ's finished work whether the issue is Sabbath or tithing or displaying the 10 Commandments or...fill in the blank!

I thank God for the New Covenant!

Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MR.& MRS. BLESSED (a.k.a., THE BURDENS)
Part Two

This story continues with Mr. Blessed driving his nice car to the store before church one Sunday morning to buy the items he wants for the big house he and his family now have. Of course, this purchase was from money he earned from a job he now has, bought by his wife with money from the job she has, sitting at home enjoying the vacation she has, worry free because of the healthy children they have, and while playing with the newborn puppies they have.

As Mr. Blessed leaves the store, a needy person approaches and asks Mr. Blessed to buy him a sandwich from the local deli. Mr. Blessed thinks to himself, "Man, get a job! After all, my wife and I have jobs and work hard everyday. I am not going to just buy you some food with my hard-earned money. I have a wife, four children, and several dogs to care for." (Pray that a needy person does not ask him for some money!)

In his new-found wealth, Mr. Blessed forgot he was once in need himself. As he walks by the needy person, he does not really say anything, barely acknowledging that this individual even exists. Since he is a "godly" person, though, he ends up praying instead, that this person might get out of his current predicament. Of course, he is going to wait until he returns home so he can pray with his godly wife. After all, Pastor Tithe prayed for him when he was in need, and this is much more convenient than actually helping the needy person himself! If one prays for something and believes God will meet the need, then God will do it, will he not? Therefore, let God take care of it!

Mr. Blessed returns home from the store, gathering the troops for the trip to church. He drives their nice car through town along the way. As they drive along Benevolence Boulevard, they sometimes pass needy people, including the homeless. His heart is torn at what he sees, thinking to himself that someone from the church ought to go down there and share the word of God with them. Oh well, he cannot wait to arrive at church and be with God's people!

After the family leaves church service, they go to the store where a Christian group is outside soliciting money to support the homeless in the area. These are volunteers from the same nonprofit organization that helped the Blessed family (a.k.a., the Burdens) in their time of troubles. The Christian couple that runs the organization, and friends of the Blesseds, were also there. The Spirit tugs at Mr. Blessed's conscience to give to this organization. Ironically, he tells them, "Sorry, we already gave our tithes and offerings to the church."

Obviously, not all Christians are like this when it comes to those in need. However, from the viewpoint of people in need, they cannot tell the difference between Christians who are like the Blesseds and those Christians that want to help but cannot. In the end, the less fortunate simply are not relieved of their burdens.

Stories like the one facing the Burdens earlier never seem to make it to the pulpit and into a sermon. There are Christians who tithe money, but are in desperate need of help financially. Furthermore, individuals in need such as these are accused of having a lack of faith in some other area of their lives, or a lack of budgeting skills.

The Blessed family, on the other hand, is an example of how traditional teachings on tithes can prevent someone from being led by the Spirit. It also reveals how blinded we can become by wealth. Instead, some follow rules that govern their giving, and consequently, believe they are justified by these works.

The Pharisees were much different from the followers of Christ in the area of giving. The believers in the early church were interested in the welfare of others (see Acts 4:32-35), while the Pharisees were interested in their own righteousness.

Furthermore, the Pharisees were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else (Lk. 18:9). This is evident by the difference between the prayers of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee prays about the good he thinks he is doing, "I FAST TWICE A WEEK AND GIVE A TENTH OF ALL I GET." The tax collector, on the other hand, prays, "GOD, HAVE MERCY ON ME, A SINNER." Nobody should have confidence in monetary tithing because, everyone who exalts himself will be humbled.

Some have assumed, however, that Jesus must have instructed those in the new Christian society to continue the use of tithing. This is not true. This would have been breaking the law of God's covenant with Israel. The disciples were not Levites. They did not do service in the Temple. The Christian ekklesia was not governed by the physical rituals associated with the Temple services at Jerusalem. Even Christ did not use tithe money for any expenses he incurred while he was on earth (see Luke 8:3). Jesus and his disciples were soley supported by private funds from those who believed in his mission. Jesus was not a Levitical Priest and he could not legally receive tithe (see Heb. 7:14).

Paul never used biblical tithe to support his preaching of the Gospel. The Apostle Paul was too trained in biblical law to suggest such a thing. It would have been illegal for him to take tithe because he was from Benjamin, not from Levi. Still, Christian workers needed to be supported. Paul continued on with I Corinthians 9:14: "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." The early Christian authorities knew that they were not Levites.

With this, it should be no surprise why Hasting's Dictionary of the Apostolic Church states: "It is admitted universally that the payment of tithes or the tenths of possessions, for sacred purposes did not find a place within the Christian Church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors." Likewise, the Encyclopedia Britannica records: "The Christian Church depended at first on voluntary gifts from its members." And the Americana says: "It [tithing] was not practiced in the early Christian Church."

Dennis J. Fischer
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I'm in agreement with you on this! :-)

Especially the comment:

"traditional teachings on tithes can prevent someone from being led by the Spirit."

Promoting "tithe" is so wide-spread and powerfully guilt-producing...to be told you are "robbing" God by being "unfaithful" in returning 10% of your finances to a church or other organization is no minor thing.

Those who speak against it as not being a New Covenant plan of giving are made to feel selfish...and not completly trusting of God.

For me, keeping focused on the grace of Jesus Christ--who for our sakes became poor so that we through His poverty might become rich!--and trusting the Holy Spirits' guidance to "excel in the grace of giving" (2 Corinthians 8) is a much better way!

And His blessings are not contingent on whether we pay an "honest" tithe or not! They are given freely!!

We can abandon ourselves to Him, "trusting" He will motivate us in giving of our time, talents, or treasures.

grace always,
cindy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, thank you for pointing out that tithing doesn't make sense in the New Covenant because it was legally meant only for the Levitical priesthood. That is such a good point!

It reminds me of the text in Hebrews 7 (I don't have my Bible with me right now, so I can't locate the exact verse) where, in discussing the fact that Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, it says, "Where there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law."

It's all been fulfilled--and we are asked to give Him everything, not merely a tenth (or one in seven!).

Praise God for the gospel.

Colleen
Imunity (Imunity)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I AM FREE!!

Thank you all for your words of wisdom... I finally get it! The Adventist doctrine and way had so attached itself to me and impeded my soul, Lord I thank you for freeing me from that heresy.

I fought quite a spiritual battle trying to find my way back to Grace Alone, and I thought I was going to have to settle for something less than complete freedom from the law, but I broke through. Man what a hold the Adventist system had on me.

The Sabbath is dead! The tithe is dead! It is only a heart that is willing to follow where ever the Lord leads that counts!

Again I thank all of you that posted and prayed for me. You are truly appreciated by this humble brother.

Along with the wisdom and resources that many of you posted, I was also assisted along by a friend who directed me to www.gotosimpletruth.com - check it out and see what you think. It is the "Lie of the Tithe" book that finally made me realize that the whole law was nailed to the cross (thus the reason I posted in this discussion).

God Bless and Amen!

Imunity
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Imunity,

May God continue to abundantly bless you as a member of His wonderful family.

Your testimony brought tears of joy to my soul! The deceptive spirit of Adventism is powerful, but Jesus intercedes in our behalf. As the song says, "He hasn't failed me yet." Thank God, we are free at last!

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer

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