| Author | Message | ||
| Snowdove (Snowdove) |
I was just wondering if any one know why the ten commandments (tables of the testimony) are envisioned or seen as being written only on one side when the Bible clearly states that the two tables were written on both sides. ìAnd Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.î Exodus 32:15 Even Ellen White envisioned them as being written on one side with one tablet having four of the commandments while the other tablet having the last six. This has been something that has been nagging me since I was a child. May the Spirit of the Lord guide you Sherri | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I've no idea, Sherri! I've thought of that, too. A lot of our perceptions, I think, came from EGW instead of the Bible. Last night as I was driving home from Bible study I heard The Voice of Prophecy on a So. Cal. Christian radio station. Melashanko was preaching about Jesus' teaching about marriage (or not marriage) in heaven. He resorted to reading from the "very descriptive (or words to that effect) Clear Word Amplified Bible." I nearly jumped my lane! The Clear Word certainly described Adam and Eve (the passage he was reading) eating the apple MUCH more creatively than does the Bible. He ended with a quote from the excellent book (no mention of the author) The Desire of Ages. By the time he finished he had created a whole scenario the first sin and its implications that was pure Ellen. I'm so thankful we can read the Bible by itself and for itself! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Colleen, You need to adjust your radio stations. ;) Sabra | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Hi friends! Well, this doesn't necessarily fit with the previous discussion here, but the Ten Commandments sounds like as good a topic as any for my inquiry. I would like to know how you answer the question: "Well, if the Sabbath isn't binding, does that mean you can kill, or steal, or covet, or dishonor your parents......" I find that's a frequent comment I hear from SDAs about Sabbath-keeping. I would answer (nobody has asked me directly since I've left the church) that if you are filled with God's Spirit why in the world would you be killing, stealing, etc., but I think of myself as fairly simple minded, not the intellectual many of you are, and I'm curious about other's responses. Thanks guys! Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I would answer as follows: Just because we have said that the Law (Torah) given to Moses is faded away and that the Covenant given at Sinai (the Ten Commandments) are no longer in force, does NOT mean that we have no law and no Covenant. As it is clearly explained in the Epistles, we are under an new superior Covenant and a new superior law. Rather than based on letters it is based on Spirit. We have the teachings of Jesus to guide us and He specifically passed along standards of behavior. The fact that obedience to ANY law CANNOT save us simply places our focus where it had always belonged: On the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That, I believe, is the lesson that Adventists seem to have the most difficulty understanding. In the end, Carol, I believe what you said is essentially correct. "If you are filled with the Spirit . . ." explains it in clear, direct words. Jerry | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
I believe you will find that Jesus in His teaching repeated nine of the ten in some form or other. Usually amplifieing on them. Only one of the ten is missing......or at least I can't find it. Care to guess which one? In His Grip <>< Thomas | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Which one is missing . . . Hmmmm *furrows brow, strokes chin* It's . . . ermmm . . . ahhh, NO-NO, don't tell me . . . I should know this . . . give me a second . . . Ahah! Its number 14! "Thou shalt not never do not that which even thou shouldst not never not do . . . " NO, wait, that's not it. ;) | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Did not Christ rescinded the commandmant "thou shalt not commit adultery"? In John 8:3-11 did he not blatantly go against the very laws and regulations concering one who was found to be an adulterer? By the laws she should have been stoned. Christ rescinded this law before his death! The message is we are no longer to judge one another. Christ alone is the judge and his commands (Believe and Love one another)are above mans contestation!! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jesus held his followers to a higher standard than the 10 commandments. The Sermon on the Mount demanded pure thoughts and motives, not just behaviors. Paul continually reminded the early churches that they were called to holy living. The fact that the law is not binding doesn't mean that there is no law. We have, as Jerry said, the law written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus completely fulfilled the law by satisfying its requirement of death for sin, he made it possible for us to be connected with God for the first time since before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Now we don't have a tablet of stone and ten requirements standing between us and God reminding us that we can't even approach God because we can't live holy lives. Now the Holy Spirit accomplishes His holiness in us by His power, and it's not related to a written law. Jesus also fulfilled the Sabbath. That day was a shadow of Christ and the rest he would provide us by his death and resurrection. (see Colossians 2:16-17) The 24/7 Sabbath rest we enjoy in Christ is as much a new, impossible, expanded understanding of the fourth commandment as "do not even lust in your hearts" was a new, impossible, expanded understanding of the seventh. The fulfilled law does us no good if we do not accept Jesus and his new birth from above. If we do not accept Him and the new identity he gives us, we are still under the old law. We are still disconnected from God and condemned by the law. Only by living in the Spirit can we live holy lives. Even then our holiness is Christ's holiness. We do not become holy by living right. We become holy by allowing the Holy Spirit to live out his life through us. The new covenant Sabbath is resting in Christ's finished work and yielding ourselves continuously to the Holy Spirit to establish Christ's presence in us. The day is now irrelevant because we have Jesus. The rest of our lives begins to look like Jesus because He is in us. Not killing or stealing is not about us "being good". Rather, it's about us yielding to Jesus. The new birth is really that: a new reality, an adoption into the family of God. It is a new mind and a new heart. Speaking about behavior in the context of the new birth has a completely different meaning than it did before we were new creatures. Now it is about being literally one with Christ. Then it was about being convicted by our hopeless behavior that we needed something besides our own desperate efforts to make us "good". Praise God for Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Wow, talk about a timely topic. This weekend I finally had a good chance to sit down and talk to my SDA mother about some things. She's been kind of curious for awhile and had seemed as though she would be willing to learn more. I don't know how well of a job I did in talking to her about things, but she did express interest in going more indepth about it, which is very very positive. As mentioned above, one of the first things out of her mouth was 'If the 10 commandments are done away with, can't I go out and steal and kill?' Typical SDA answer as many of you know. I tried to explain things and I think I got the key points out and she didn't totally tell me I was wrong and an apostate or anything, so I know she's not 100% close minded. I am trying to gather up some good resources for her about the covenants and the differences of what they are, what they are for, who they are for, their origins, and that type of information. Can anyone steer me towards some good resources online that I could give to her. I would prefer things I could print out and give to her rather than things she would have to sit at her computer to read or anything like that. I know many on here have gone through this type of situation so I'm counting on you for help! Thank you, Steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Mark 12:28-34 28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." But after that no one dared question Him. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Carol2, I like your answer best. It's clear, and cuts right through to the heart of the matter. Your answer may be "simple" but it is profound. Short and direct statements tend to get stuck in the head of those who hear them. Those things sure can be annoying! ha | ||
| Bob (Bob) |
Steve: The Clay Peck on-line book, "New Covenant Christians" is a great resource for study of the covenants. It is listed on the "Links" page of this website. The actual link is: http://www.graceplace.org/message/covenant.html | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thanks for the Peck reference, Bob. A shorter but also powerful study is Greg Taylor's study attached to his story on the Stories page of this website. He outlines the study he did when he was studying the Sabbath before resigning from his pastorate last year. Colleen | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
I sure agree Colleen, Greg Taylor's study from this website (Story section) is to me, one of the best we can give people. I have made a number of copies of that and have handed them to a number of my SDA friends. I simply tell them "If you want to understand where I am at in my theological views, just read this document. If you have any questions or would like to discuss it let me know" When people can read something by themselves, on their own time and in a non-threatening eviroment, they are usually not so defensive. Greg has written it in a very kind, gentle manner, that is very non-threatening. I think many people are not ready to dig into a book like "Sabboth in Crisis". Unless they have been a student of scripture, they will find it to heavy and probably not finish it. Greg's document is short and to the point and is his own story of his journey and therefore non-threatening. Most of us on this site have spent many hours wrestling with this whole Old Covenant/New Covenant topic and we must remember that our SDA friends have probably spent very little time thinking about it let alone studying it. Not only our SDA friends but also our friends from other denominations. There are many non-SDA Christians who are locked into the Old Covenant obedience and simply substitute Sunday for Saturday. Jesus told his diciples that he had many more things to share with them but they were not able to hear them at that time. A spoonful at a time is better than dumping the whole bowl on them at once. Colleen, I agree with your statement that "The fullfilled law is no good unless we believe and enter into the new birth experience" We don't rest in Christ 24/7 in order to be 'born again', we rest in Christ because we truly believe that we are 'born again' by the Holy Spirit and any rightouseness that we may exhibit is 100% Christ's rightousness. It's forever and always by God's GRACE. It truly is AMAZING GRACE to save a wretch like me. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Clay, I like the way you stated that: "We don't rest in Christ 24/7 in order to be 'born again', we rest in Christ because we truly believe that we are 'born again' by the Holy SpiritÖ" After we're born again, obedience takes on a whole new light. We no longer obey the law in order to be saved; we obey Jesus by allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us what he wants us to do and how he wants us to live BECAUSE we are born again! Through the Bible we can now really learn God's will and discern His truth because the Spirit in us recognizes and responds to the Spirit that inspired the Bible. Before being born again, the Bible did not seem like a living book because we could not discern and respond to the Spirit behind it. After the new birth, we see how the Bible fits together seamlessly; the OT and the NT are in harmony, and God's work among humanity begins to make more and more sense. The things that used to seem like contradictions and errors no longer do; the instructions that seemed cultural and outmoded seem fresh and alive and freeing from the perspective of the new birth. I am in awe that God calls us and changes us and makes us his own, sharing Himself with us by the literally indwelling Spirit. In Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Jtree (Jtree) |
Hey the fourth commandment is not missing from the New Testiment after all. It is found in Matt 11:28, Since Sabbath is rest, for Israel. Exodus 20, and since that rest has been nailed to the cross Col 2:14-16, He replaced that rest, with another rest. Rest is what Jesus gives to those who come to Him who are weary and burdened (NIV). And those who come to Him are Christ followers. Hebrews chapter 4, says as long as it is called TODAY! | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
thought this was interesting, not sure who wrote it originally: Lost in the controversy over the 5,280-pound Ten Commandments monument, which was removed from the rotunda of the Alabama's State Judicial Building to comply with a federal court order, is the real question. Which Ten Commandments should everyone be fighting over? You've got your Jewish Ten Commandments, your Catholic Ten Commandments, your Lutheran Ten Commandments, your Charlton Heston Ten Commandments, your King James Bible Ten Commandments, your New Revised Standard Version Ten Commandments, and they don't all agree as to which commandment is which - or what they really mean. Even the Bible contains two versions, one in Exodus 20:1-17 and a slightly different one in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. There are, of course, various English translations of those ancient Hebrew texts. Further complicating the commandments are the fact that neither Exodus nor Deuteronomy neatly number the no-nos from one to 10. By some counts, there are actually Twenty-Nine Commandments, not Ten Commandments. For example, the Alabama monument to "the laws of nature and of nature's God," uses the "thou shalt" of the King James Bible rather than the "you shall" of the New Revised Standard Version. The monument in Montgomery slashes its version of the Tenth Commandment down to a mere four words: Thou Shalt Not Covet. What King James really says is a bit more specific: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's." Is that six commandments, one commandment, two commandments or the Tenth Commandment? Different denominations use various numbering systems because they differ on what to include in the First and Tenth Commandments. The Tenth Commandment for Jews and most Protestants is the entire "thou shalt not covet" passage. But Catholics and Lutherans list two "thou shalt not covet" commandments: one against coveting your neighbor's wife and one against coveting your neighbor's property, including his ass. Then there is the question of what the commandments were meant to mean. For example, the First Commandment that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" indicates that it was OK to have gods other than Yahweh, so long as Yahweh was No. 1. Monotheism came later. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is either commandment six or seven and originally only forbade sex with a married woman. Married men were free to have sex with other females. That's because establishing paternity, not maintaining sexual purity, was the reason for that commandment. Then there are the commandments in the next chapter of Exodus, which allow fathers to sell their daughters into slavery (21:7) and say that "whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death" (21:17). Neither of those commandments is included among the Ten Commandments that have been under dispute in the monument debate at the Alabama State Judicial Building. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, It is my understanding that many scholars now believe that the Deut. 5 version, of the Ten Commandments, was the actual one in the ark of the covenant. Interestingly, the Deut. 5 version does not link the Sabbath commandment to creation, but it refers to slavery in Egypt instead. Obviously, BOTH versions were not in the ark of the covenant. I am not clear why Moses cited TWO versions in the Torah. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this topic. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Good question. I have no idea. |
