| Author |
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Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 12:26 am: |     |
I agree with Lydell. The Bible is quite clear that the atonement is complete, and all is fully done.
I have heard some say, however, that the year of jublilee and the feast of trumpets are yet to be fulfilled when Jesus returns. The Day of Atonement, though, Jesus completed on the cross.
Colleen |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 3:02 pm: | |
Colleen, it seems to me that the year of jubilee is fulfilled in Christ also. The slave is set free and the debt is cleared thru what He has already accomplished. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
Lydell, in support of you contention that the year of Jubuilee was fulfilled in Christ, I would submit the following:
And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
``THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE, HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE, THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''
And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, ``Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'' Luke 4:16-21 (NASB)
Jesus is reading from Isaiah 61:1-2 which is an allusion to the year of Jubilee when debts were canceled and property returned. Isaiah was predicting the liberation of the exiled Israelites in Babylon, but Jesus seems to be applying the same Jubilean concept to His ministry and liberation from sin and all its consequences. He clearly says, ``Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.''
Chris |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 5:48 pm: | |
Although many North American Evangelicals hold that God has two different plans for the Church and for Israel, many scriptural texts militate against this relatively recent escatological view.
Although scripture does seem to say there will be a large scale coversion of Jewish people (Rom. 11:12, 15, 23-24, 25-26, 28-31) it also seems to suggest that this will simply result in Jewish believers being grafted back into their own tree (Rom. 11:2). It should be noted that gentiles, the wild branches, are grafted into this very same tree. There are also many other texts that see a continuity between "Israel" or the "people of God" and believers of all times including what we now call "the Church". Consider the following:
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly,, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:28-29 (NASB)
and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. Romans 4:11-12 (NASB)
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, ``A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU'') in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, ``SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.'' Romans 4:16-18 (NASB)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: ``THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.'' That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Romans 9:6-8 (NASB)
As He says also in Hosea,
``I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, `MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, `BELOVED.' '' Romans 9:25 (NASB)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29 (NASB)
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, Phil 3:3 (NASB)
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called ``Uncircumcision'' by the so-called ``Circumcision,'' which is performed in the flesh by human handsó 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22 (NASB)
to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, Eph 3:6 (NASB)
It seems clear to me that the apostle Paul thought of the true Israel and the true Church as one. I have no doubt that others here will most strongly disagree. I don't mean to start a large debate. I just think it's worth thinking about. An overly dogmatic view of a complete and total discontinuity between Israel and the Church may go beyond what scripture actually says.
Chris |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 6:50 am: | |
My hangup with the issue of "true Israel" is the meaning B assigns to it. In his thinking, to say we are true Israel means we are bound to the Old Covenant that was given to Israel. So, the hair on the back of my neck stands up when I hear that phrase. I understand all the scriptures above and how they point to us as God's chosen people now, but I don't want to confuse the point by people saying that we are who God gave the Old Covenant to, ultimately. I know there are scriptures that talk about the old, decaying covenant, but somehow B doesn't consider that until the second coming or somewhere in the future.
My conclusions aren't different than Chris's point, but it's just that phrase-thing.... |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 7:41 am: | |
I definately do NOT use the phrase "true-Israel" in the sense of "those who truly keep the ten commandments". I use the phrase, in the sense of "All those past, present, and future who put their full faith, trust, and hope in the Messiah of scripture". I do understand your issue though as I agree that SDAs misunderstand and misuse the concept.
Chris |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 9:51 am: | |
Chris, glad you printed the texts. I happened to have been doing some studying this morning and was really struck by the comparison of some scriptures that show that all of Jesus's ministry was an "end time" event. He really did fulfill all that was promised in the OT prophets. Check these out. The verses in Is. are the promises of the Messiah, the NT passages are about Christ:
Messiah's coming would be "good news" Is. 40.9-10 and 52.7, Lk. 2.10, Matt. 1.2
He will bring comfort Is. 12.1, 61.1-3, Lk. 2.25-29, 38
He will save Is. 12.1-2 and Lk. 7.50, 24.36
His glory would be revealed Is. 60.1-2, 19-20, John 1.14
Messianic kingdom restored Is. 9.6-7 and 11.1-2 and Matt. 1.1-17 and 27.37
He would bring judgment Is. 33.22 and 61.11 and Jn. 12.24-46 and Eph. 2.5 (the judgment of the whole world happened already in the cross)
the Spirit would be poured out Is. 44.1-5, 40.9-10 and Joel 2.28-30 and Acts 2.13-16
resurrection of the dead Is. 25.8 and Jn. 22. 24-26 and Eph. 2.5
New Jerusalem Is. 2.2-4, 66.10-14 and Heb. 12.22-24 and Gal. 4.26
a New People of God will be gathered Is. 43.6-9 and 27.12-13 and Eph. 3. 1-6, Rom. 9.25
the coming would be "good news" Is. 40.9-10, Lk. 2.10
And all of this reflects back on those two prophecies that we had engrained into us as SDA's. The Rock has already come down and is already smashing the toes of the image that Neb. saw. It is surprising because the Jews had expected it all to be a one time united event in the future, yet in Christ' arrival it is already happening. And the 4 beast powers that were to be overcome by the heavenly kingdom are already being overtaken by the arrival of Christ and what He accomplished at the cross. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
Yes, Lydell, I've thought of that, too. Jesus' coming was that rock that smashed the image, and the mountain is still growing.
I also see all of God's people as being the mystery of Jews and Gentiles being made one in Christ. I don't see Israel (the Jews) having a "separate track" of salvation. We are one now, and we are all being grafted into the vine, as Chris pointed out. (This in itself is a new covenant reality that Israel would never have guessed. They believed--and observant Jews still believe--that being Jewish ensures that one is God's person and that He will save and protect them. The idea that they would have to be grafted into the vine like any other unbelieving sinner has to be would have been quit unthinkable!)
Romans 9 through 11, however, suggest to me that God may have some sort of spiritual awakening in store for the Jews. Exactly what that will look like, I don't pretend to know. But Paul says they've been partially hardened until the full number of Gentiles has come in, and then the hardness will be removed. That seems to correlate with Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones which reassembled into bodies--lifeless bodies, but bodies--and then the Spirit brought them to life.
I really don't "buy" all of the scenarios I hear about the way things will be at the end, but I do think they will be different than I imagined.
The thing I most object to about the view that the Jews will never again figure in prophecy as Jews is that Romans is so clear that they have been temporarily hardened, and that because of the patriarchs God still loves them. I don't see them on a separate "track", but I do wonder if there will be another period of time when God will soften their hearts and give them another chance to recognize the Messiah in a new and powerful way.
I heard one lady say this weekend that God will not deal with the Jews as a people again. God rejected them when they rejected Jesus, and Jesus condemned them for their sin. Well, yes--but Paul still talks about them being grafted in at a time that seems subsequent to the gentile growth of the church.
I really don't have any idea how this softening might look, and I really don't see this as a divisive issue. I guess this is another of those questions that we will only understand for sure when it happens. I more and more believe that we will be as astonished at the reality of the future as the apostles were when they saw Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit!
Colleen |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
Right on, Colleen! I don't see how people can say God has rejected the jews "forever" and still consider Romans 9-11 as part of scripture. Like you, I don't know what all that means, but I don't think it's accidental that they are back in their land. But it doesn't surprise me (that I don't understand everything) given what I read in scripture. Jesus personally explained to the disciples about his death and resurrection, but they never really understood what it meant until hindsight when Christ rose and explained to them. Similarly, I think we will understand all of these things once they have happened. There is great peace in knowing I'm in good company.... :-)
Sometimes, I tell my son to do something that he doesn't understand without explanation and that I will explain "why" later. I do this for several reasons. If there were an emergency, I don't need to have to go through 20 questions to get him to respond. But he needs the explanation eventually. That way he grows to trust my instructions, and that there is logic when asked to do something. It builds trust. I think God is the same with us. Sometimes we do things because we understand "why", other times, we do it because we trust knowing we will eventually understand. |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 7:33 pm: | |
Colleen, I heard a suggestion that the Jews will be the last people group to be reached. The guys theory was that the Word has been spread most powerfully mainly from east to west around the globe. The next major group to be reached in a big way is the Arabs. And that it could well be the Arabs then that will be the ones to take the gospel to the Jews. Pure speculation, of course, but an interesting thought, don't you think? |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:23 pm: | |
Lydell, that is a fascinating idea! You know, I've thought some about the fact that the angel of the Lord promised Hagar that her son would be a great nation, and the fact that the angel made water appear to her and her son in the desert when the son was about to die is a really amazing miracle. It made me ponder the idea that perhaps that whole event foreshadowed the water of life being even for the Gentiles although they were not the sons of promise.
Somehow the Arabs bringing the gospel to the Jews has the ring of poetic justice! It will be so interesting to see how things unfold.
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:51 pm: | |
Lydell quote"But Sabra, according to the scriptures there is "neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female". If we belong to Christ, then we "are Abraham's seed"....in other words, we are more Jew than someone who is born a Jew. We are now "a chosen nation, a royal priesthood, a people of God" along with the Jews who have accepted Christ.
I don't see anywhere in scripture that it is indicated that there is a seperate atonement specifically for one group of people. Christ has fully atoned.
I don't think I understand..."end quote
Sorry I've been away for a few, we moved, back to the house--long story, glad to be home, anyways... that's the 3rd time I've heard that the Arabs are going to be coverted so I would say that is confirmation. Wow! How amazing that is going to be! This is a complex subject-the Jews and Gentiles-I understand that we are all one in Christ, no distinction once we are believers, but I definately see the unbelieving Jews being brought back to God and they recognize Jesus when He returns, Romans says "and all Israel will be saved" I believe "all Israel" means all that God knew would be saved, that He reserved a remnant-that the Jews are that remnant, not the SDA's, there are too many unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel and too many that have just come to pass in the past decade for it to all be pertaining to the church. Anyways, I will study it out some more and let yall know if I come up with anything else. Thank you all for your responses! |
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