| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Could use a little help being sure I understand this. The Day of Atonement is the day Jesus died, correct? Adventists think it is future, correct? Any additional thoughts appreciated. Always sorting out...........does it ever end???? | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Sabra, I don't know if the day Jesus died (known as Good Friday or Black Friday by some) was on the actual Day of Atonement of the Jewish calendar. However, that IS the day of atonement for Christians. When Jesus died on the cross, His atonement was completed for all believers from Adam & Eve to the last conversion before His second coming. Adventists believe that the atonement on the cross was not complete (MANY so-called modern, "evangelical" Adventists would disagree with this.) Ellen White was clear in The Great Controversy. It is not until believers "prove" themselves worthy of Christ's atoning death on the cross that they may have that death credited to them. Realize that the "proof" may not be for years, decades or centuries after the believer dies, because God has to wait and see (the Adventist god can't see the future) if any lasting effects from the life of the believer impact the lives of those who live after he/she dies. Once all has been recorded in the "books," perused by the "Angel," sprinkled by the blood of the "jesus" in the second apartment, and shown to the universe to be "fair" may the believer be judged worthy of salvation, or worhty of god's universal 1-minute microwave oven. I'll stick with the Biblical statement from Romans chapter 3: 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed. The Atonement is about God's righteousness, it's not about us at all. Adventism has a seriously misplaced focus. Steve | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Steve, I like your "universal one-minute microwave oven" analogy for annihilationism. Indeed, it is an understandable, contemporary comparison for a heresy originating with the "Christian" apologist, Arnobius, in the fourth century. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
OK, so HEbrews 9:26 .....but now once, at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Any elaboration on the end of the Ages? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, this text refers to the fact that Jesus' sacrifice ushered in the Messianic era. All history had been moving toward this great consummation. While "ages" are not completely defined in the Bible, the word appears in several interesting places. At the end of Matthew (28:20) Jesus said, "And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age." The age to which he refers is undoubtedly the age in which we live--the time dispensationlaists call the "church age". Before Jesus came, everything was different. People could not have direct contact with God the Father because sin had not been atoned. Hence the high priest entering the Most Holy Place only on the Day of Atonement and bearing blood as he went, his ankles attached to a rope so he could be pulled out in the case of his death. That age was certainly different from this age. What exactly the ages might have been before that, I'm not sure. I suspect a case could be made for pre-flood time being a different age. Certainly Romans 5 makes a distinction between the time before the law when people were judged on the basis of inherited sin and after the Mosaic law at which time they were judged for their obedience or disobedience to that revelation of God's will. Romans 16:25 and Ephesians 3:9 refer to the mystery of God uniting all people (Jews and Gentiles) through Jesus Christ being revealed after being hidden from ages past. Ephesians 2:7 refers to Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father "in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace." Jesus arrived at the end of the ages that led up to the new covenant and the Messianic age and ushered in the last days. What ages lie ahead, we can only speculate. Perhaps Christ's milennial kingdom is a coming age, and the new heavens and the new earth yet another. What others there may be, we do not know. When I think what a difference there is in the reality of our experience on this side of the cross with the indwelling Holy Spirit making us new creatures, I realize that we have no idea exactly what the coming ages might be like. Certainly the reality of all nations being literally part of the body of Christ was veiled from those who lived before the cross. Even though we have prophetic hints of the coming ages, I'm certain that the actual reality will surprise us and fill us with awe as much as the new covenant surprised and amazed the apostles. Praising God for holding us and already being in the future, Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I think the meaning of "at the end of the ages" must be gleaned from both the immediate context of Heb. 9 and the entire context of the book. Heb. 9 is specificly talking about Old Covenant temple rituals and how they pointed to the work of Christ and fulfillment in the new covenant. Christ's fulfillment of these rituals, and His ushering in of a new covenant marked the end of an age and the transition to a new age. Although the kingdom age is not yet fully realized, it was certainly inagurated in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can truly say that He ended the Old covenant age of signs and shadows and cleasnsed us of sin once for all. Chris | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Thanks Dennis. I didn't know that about Arnobius. I've checked the volume I have & will read his Argument Against the Heathens, I believe book/chapter 2 contains what you're referring to. It's actually somewhat amazing that the modern cults rehash false doctrines that have been laid to rest for over 1500 years. Colleen & Chris, I'm not sure of the difference between "end of the ages" and the "last days." I believe that we have been living in the "end times" since the time of the Apostles. I believe that any further ages will take place after Jesus' second coming and we enter the Millennium (on earth, with Jesus as Ruler.) Jesus said "the Kingdom is among you." Revelation says that we are a "kingdom of priests." Acts 2:17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; These last days began on the Day of Pentecost, see Acts 2. 2 Timothy 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. (Continue reading in this chapter. Paul makes it clear that he is talking about the times in which he lived, as well as all time from that point on.) Hebrews 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. The writer of Hebrews states that "these last days" began when God spoke to us in His Son. This is actually an important point. Jesus was God's final Word to us. There will not be a "more complete" revelation of God to mankind after Jesus. (This puts to rest ANY group/cult that insists that they have been given a "light" whether it be a "greater" or "lesser" light.) How does this all relate to the Atonement and the Day of Atonement? From the time of the Apostles until the Second Coming, (and throughout all eternity) the Atonement stands as a completed act. Steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
thank you all, that is helpful. We understand that Jesus placed His blood on the mercy seat by Hebrews9 but it doesn't actually say He placed it, does it say so somewhere else? | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Steve, I would agree with you. I was attempting to communicate that by ushering in the New Covenant, Jesus effectively closed one age and began the last age of world history (as we know it). I agree that these are the end times and have been since the cross (based on the scripture you posted). I would go one step further though and say that the kingdom of God (kingdom age) was inagurated during the ministry of Christ and will be fully realized at his return. So there is some overlap of the ages in this sense. Chris | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Sabra, I'm not quite sure of the question and I very well may be misunderstanding. I would just say that the earthly tabernacle, the Holy and Most Holy places, the alter, the mercy seat, the ark, all of these things were symbolic shdows of a higher and greater spiritual reality. I think it would be an error to think of there being a large tabernacle building in Heaven that Jesus walked into and then physically placed blood on a literal mercy seat. All of these Old Testament symbols are there to give us a vivid mental image of the very real work that Christ did on our behalf, but the reality always transcends the symbol. Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Chris you took the words right out of my mouth... (literally, I just hadn't posted it yet!) Heb 9:24 says that Christ did not enter a temple made with hands, but heaven itself. So, heaven itself is what the holy place represented. The ceremony was merely a picture of what Christ would do for us by his blood, it covers everything and is all sufficient for all time. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
The subject of this thread brings me back to something about Hebrews that never ceases to amaze me. The above verses reflect on why many Adventists fail to perceive the true meaning of book of Hebrews. Often, I have seen evidence of how the book of Hebrews is perceived in a very limited way. Recently, as some of you may know, the ìSabbath School Adult Quarterlyî had the title ìSanctuary Themesî and referred to the book of Hebrews. In it, the verses were used to substantially ìproveî that the ìInvestigative Judgmentî was scriptural. Oh, of course, the specific term was never used. Nevertheless, selected verses were slanted to support the concept. Furthermore, the lessons made the case that, in a certain sense, a ìtrue believerî was still bound to the ministry of the Old Covenant. Hebrews, as I have said before, is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It makes very clear the connection and contrast between the Old and New Covenants. The symbolism and logic is compelling us to understand that God has a plan that proceeds through the ìages,î unfolds in ever-increasing depth and breadth, never contradicts His past work, but always changes to bring us closer to Him. In my opinion, this book lays out the reason for the change in the Covenants with more insight into the history of the Old and the destiny of the New than most of the other books. The change portrayed is so very stark and so much more glorious that I fail to see how one can study this book and not understand that the Old Covenant has been abolished in favor of something much more powerful and direct. Yet, apparently so many miss the finality of Christís work on the Cross. What can we do that, in any way, could add to the redemption through the Grace of God? What can we do that, in any way, could atone or blot out our sins better than Christís blood? Even with that, some look at those same words and see no such assurance. What a pity. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Jerry, I think failing to see how the symbols pointed to the reality is part of reason that some cannot see the clear contrast between the covenants made by the author of Hebrews. SDA theology does not see so much see these OT symbols as types, but as miniture models of larger structures and practices existing in Heaven. Given this understanding, it's no wonder that the New Covenant is seen as little more than a warmed up version of the Old Covenant. Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I was cleaning off my hard drive this morning and found these screenshots of a online "study" from an SDA. (I mentioned it a while back when talking about my "experience" one night after reading their lesson on hell.) It is called "Cyberspace Ministry" housed at www.tagnet.org/cyberspace/end-stud.html. There are so-called "truth" lessons and the one I happened to open was talking about the sanctuary. It went back to genesis to say that God killing the animal to make Adam/Eve's first clothes was the beginning of the sacrificial system that ultimately pointed to Christ and where God showed them how to make sacrifices (that seemed to be a huge jump in presumptiveness...EGWism? I suspect?). Then they said it got lost in time through paganism and he had to re-show the Hebrew people later. I have heard B make that argument when I have showed him scriptures that say God gave the Sabbath to the Hebrews at Sinai (that he was giving them something lost earlier). But I never realized they saw so much of the OC as in place prior to Exodus. I thought it was just the 10. On contrast, I heard a Jew one time on some radio show saying that when he was first challenged to investigate Jesus, he read Hebrews. That is where he realized that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the Messiah his people had been looking for. I don't remember if he was a rabbi or what, but he was very well trained in the Old Testament and his understandings from Hebrews would make ours look flimsy. He was so articulate in a book that really seems somewhat confusing to me at times because I'm not that versed in the Old Covenant details, but it made me realize that the people it was written to would have had that same "ah-ha" that this guy had because of their familiarity with the practices and teachings of their scriptures, if they would open their eyes. I think the book was written to reach Jews of every generation, to point them to the Messiah of the Old Testament. How sad indeed that some see it as a book to point those of the Messiah back to the Old Testament bondage rather than the other way around.. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Absolutely, Chris. Adventists see the OT symbols as miniatures or "types" of the great "anti-types" in heaven. And I also agree that the last days began with Jesus and continue until his coming. I also like your "overlapping" ages idea with the kingdom age, here now spiritually, overlapping with the last days until the kingdom fully exists both physically and spiritually. Elizabeth Inrig frequently refers to it as the "already but not yet" kingdom. This Adventist perception of the OT being types of greater physical realities dovetails with Melissa's post above about Hebrews being written for Jews of all types. Hebrews used to confuse me terribly, or at the very least it seemed overy simplified. Until I began to see Hebrews as a statement about Jesus fulfilling the Old Covenant, it was a boring and not particularly insightful book to me. (It's almost embarassing to admit that!) Adventists really do not see the astonishing fulfillment described in Hebrews because they believe they know what Jesus did and didn't do, so they can't see what the book is really saying. This situation brings me back to that statement by my colleague: The Bible is a closed book. Unless you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will never "get" it. I'm so thankful that God reveals himself through his word! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
That's so true, Colleen. It comes alive when your spirit does, up to that point it's just a book. This particular SDA I'm corresponding with doesn't believe in EGW and has even set up a committee to try to retire her, interesting. He has serious problems with the IJ, but sees the redemption of the earth as being the day of atonement when death here is conquered. Of course this is leading to a state of the dead debate but it's a very amicable discussion and I'm believing that this year of correspondence has planted a seed. That's all I can do. ;) It's scary how all of the doctrines are so well intertwined so one doesn't work unless another fails. Too weird. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Viewing the end of time as the Day of Atonement minimizes the magnitude and completeness of what Jesus did on the cross. This view also completely disregards the symbolism inherrent in the Jewish Day of Atonement. I would be interested to know exactly what part of the Jewish DOA ceremonies he thinks point to the end of time as opposed to the cross. Does this mean that Jesus is not currently our heavenly mediator between God and man (the high priest mediated for Israel). Does this mean that Christ has not yet fully paid the price for our sin (the goat sacrificed on the DOA)? Does this mean that Christ has not yet removed the guilt and penalty of our sins from us as far as the east is from the west(the scapegoat sent out of the camp into the wilderness). All of the symbols (as well as the nearly the whole book of Hebrews) demand that all this was accomplished by Christ at the cross (I would certainly admit that there are certain "now and not yet" aspects to our salvation and subsequent sanctification, but this is not sufficient reason to say that the DOA has not yet been accomplished). But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Heb 10:12-14 (NIV) Chris | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
. . . and the absolute refutation of the ìa little now, a little laterî atonement appears in the previous chapter.
**knocks on heads** Hello! HELLO!! Heís done, finished, did it, doesnít need to do anything about sin later, itís over already. To say Christ did NOT finish the atonement at the Cross is to ìre-crucifyî Him continually. Actually, when I noted (past tense), I should say (perfect tense)
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| Sabra (Sabra) |
OK, what about this....the day of Atonement was specifically Jewish. So....could it be that for the Jews the day is still to come? I do understand it is definately done for Christians. Check this out: Trumpets calls the people to prepare for Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement. The ten days from Trumpets to the Day of Atonement are known as "the days of awe" and the people consider very carefully what sins will be held against them when GOD reckons up. Jewish tradition says that on this day GOD enters the righteous in the book of life and the wicked in the book of death. For those in between , the verdict remains open until Yom Kippur. Incidentally , Trumpets falls when the zodiac sign is the scales. There is a one day feast (two days outside Israel) but it is rather subdued , as each one searches his conscience and prays. Trumpets call for repentance while there is still time. There is a ritual involving shaking out ones pockets over running water, while reciting psalms and prophets. These days are also a time for righting wrongs done to others, paying debts and charitable giving. Jews are well aware of the need to forgive and be forgiven by others before seeking forgiveness from God. Trumpets also speaks of Sinai, Exodus 19 v16-19, "On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain trembled violently, and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him." In Numbers 10, GOD instructed the people to make two silver trumpets. (Silver symbolizes redemption, and the two symbolize Jews and Gentiles.) The two trumpets had different purposes :- One was for breaking camp and moving out and the other to sound the alarm for warfare. The return of Jesus will be heralded by trumpets (Rev 8 v6 & 13). In prophetic terms this could mean one trumpet for the rapture of the church ( Rev 4&5 ) while the other trumpet is for the Jews for warfare for the restoration of Israel and the seven year tribulation ( Rev 6v18 , Joel 2 v1, Zeph 1 v14-18 ) look at all of the similarities for the last days. Just thinking. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
But Sabra, according to the scriptures there is "neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female". If we belong to Christ, then we "are Abraham's seed"....in other words, we are more Jew than someone who is born a Jew. We are now "a chosen nation, a royal priesthood, a people of God" along with the Jews who have accepted Christ. I don't see anywhere in scripture that it is indicated that there is a seperate atonement specifically for one group of people. Christ has fully atoned. I don't think I understand... |
