| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
A couple questions to spark up some discussion. It's been kinda quiet here. 1. Is there a difference between a Seventh-day Adventist and a Christian? 2. Can there be such a thing as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian? | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
It's funny you should ask because I have been pondering the same thing. B was angry when I put on our son's birth certificate that his religion was Christian. He wanted Adventist. It was the "proof in the pudding" to me that being Adventist was more important than being Christian, or at least a higher calling. I'd be curious how the rest perceive those questions, though, since I'm an outsider. | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Melissa - " I'd be curious how the rest perceive those questions, though," I belong to an SDA church and always identify myself as a Christian who belongs to an SDA church. This is how I identify myself both at church and when at other nonSDA churches where I many times worship. This is how many of us at my church identify ourselves when we attend other churches. I know there are different views of this in the SDA church. At my sister's church which is more traditional I'm sure the SDA would probably come first. We all need to be careful to not stereotype different groups we talk about. There is great diversity amoung the people of God. Just last night i went to a membership class of a nonSDA church to learn what they believed and was VERY impressed. God is leading His people in diverse and wonderful ways. Richard | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Richard makes a good point in saying we can't evaluate individuals using a group template. We probably can't even judge individual congregations using a larger denominational template. So, in my humble opinion, the answers to Gatororea's questions are: 1. Is there a difference between a Seventh-day Adventist and a Christian? In come cases yes, in other cases no. 2. Can there be such a thing as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian? Yes, undoubtedly there are individuals within Adventism that have put their full faith in Jesus Christ alone and are trusting in His grace alone for their salvation. Given the individual diversity that one could find within any organization, the more interesting question to me is: 3) Does the Seventh-day Adventist organization and hiearchy, as a system, more closely display the characteristics of a) an orthodox Christian denomination, b) a hetrodox Christian sect, or c) a theological cult? Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I have to work hard on the sterotype thing...and partially because I have been so negatively portrayed by SDAs because I am not one of them. Their theology seems to point to us 'nons' as the enemy. So, it's hard to not be defensive. Maybe it's just because I have been 'attacked' so harshly by the SDAs I know, but 'non-SDA' is one of those terms that stands the hair on the back of my neck (as being a "true" Jew does...all along the same vein, though). Whenever B's sister in-law or aunts talk about anyone, they begin by identifying whether or not they are SDA or "non". Whether or not the person is a Christian is never identified, and seems irrelevant. (I went to an SDA family reunion and eventually left the house to be outside alone because I got tired of hearing how inferior we "nons" were. I had come to think I was contaminating their space by my presence. B eventually jumped on some of his family for making me feel so unwelcome, but at least I know where I stand with them.) I know other groups talk about being baptist, or methodist or AOG, but I've never heard of non-baptist or non-methodist or non-AOG and I've spent the majority of my religious life in baptist churches. Even Catholics call us protestants, which is not a negative term. In those situations, I feel an acknowledgement that we are still under the greater umbrella of Christianity whether we agree on every theological point or not. But when referred to as "non", and it may merely be the SDAs I've been exposed to, there is the tone of substandard, insignificance or general negativity. It's as though the others who are not SDAs are all in the same category...baptist, methodists, catholic or pagan. The faith I have is irrelevant because I'm not one of them. Because I've had the privilege to grow up in a interdenominational Christian youth group, I've interacted with Christians from numerous denominations. I've learned about their religious traditions and how they worship. But never was there a sense of "right" or "wrong" or "better" or "worse" or "acceptable to God" or "worshipping in vain" (as I've heard applied to so-called "Sundayworship). So, this sense I have around the SDAs I know is very unusual and frankly uncomfortable to me. I certainly don't like it. I have family that is catholic, lutheran, methodist, baptist and non-denominational Christian (along with a number of garden-variety pagans). Through the years there has also been involvement in the presbyterian church and the AOG church, though none currently. So, labels don't really mean a lot to me typically, but it is a challenge in this situation. If there are people who are members of the SDA church that consider me their equal sister, I'm glad to hear it. It just hasn't been my experience in my limited exposure. I don't mean to offend anyone, that is merely my point of reference. | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I have found that there are many Christians in the SDA orginization. What I have also found out is that they were raised in the church, but never took the time for indepth study of what the church stands for. IE. If you ask them if they are saved by grace and Christ's blood only they will say yes. The problems come in when they are more involved and start to study, they either come out or take it "hook, line and sinker". | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Chris, a question to your post... "faith in Jesus Christ alone and are trusting in His grace alone for their salvation" If someone claims the above, but also adds to it (sabbathkeeping, etc), are they saved? I ask because I struggle with comprehending whether B is saved because he thinks it so necessary to "do" certain things. At times he claims orthodox salvation, but at other times he "knows" he is saved because he is part of the "remnant" church. I know it's probably an impossible question to definitively answer. I just never know how to pray for him or even talk to him ... as a lost person, or as a very confused saved person. If he's saved, I guess I have less urgency towards him than if he's not. If he's not, how can I get him to recognize need for a savior since he has his "blueprint" to get to heaven and has a checkmark by everything on his list? (That's a rhetorical question to some degree, since I know only the Holy Spirit convicts hearts). I am still trying to learn how to respond to this whole situation, so forgive me if the question misses the real point or seems somehow trivial. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Greetins all! I haven't been here in some time, but lurk from time to time. I couldn't help but respond to this topic. Richard you said:
While I believe your comments are well intended, I think some of the words/phrases I highlighted lends credence to Melissa's observation. Allow me to elaborate: 1. You always identify yourself as a Christian who belongs to the SDA Church. Why it is necessary to modify the "Christian" label. Are we not all part of the same body? 2. You referred to other Churches as non SDA churches. Is there a particular reason for that? Interestingly enough, I have never heard of a "non-Baptist" church or a "non-Lutheran" church. It is also interesting that you line of demarkation is whether a church is SDA or not. While it is important to you to identify yourself as a "Christian who is SDA," the denominatoinal affiliation of other "Christians" does not seem to be as important, considering you lumped them all into the same category--non-SDA. 3. I underlined the words "us" and "them" because the denominational labels tend to stereotype all members of a certain group as believing and acting a certain way. I agree with your statement that there is much diversity in the people of God. However, by using the term we, you generalized all members of your church as acting a certain way (and members of your sister's church as acting a different way) and you generalized all the people of the church you visited as ascribing to a certain set of beliefs. 4. Finally, you stated you attended the membership class in order to learn what they believe It appears (and I could be wrong) that this was done in much the same way that a scientist studies other species or cultures; however your statement that "you were very impressed," would appear to suggest at a minimum that you initially thought that your doctrinal position was superior to theirs, and indeed you might even still believe that, but may concede that they're not nearly as bad off as you initially thought. These comments are meant to be argumentative; however, I just wanted to point out that the roots of Adventist run deep--even among those of us (yes, most of us have been there) who have the best of intentions. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Melissa, I don't think your question is trivial at all becasue I have pondered it often myself. It is exceedingly difficult to answer though becasue we humans are so ill-equipped to know the hearts of others. On the one hand, I think there are those who have a Sabbatarian theology (be it Sunday or Saturday Sabbatarianism) who are most definately saved. They undertand that everyone who is saved is saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone regardless of doctrinal views or day of worship. They do not exclude or judge Christians who have other views. Their personal conscience and level of understanding may lead them to regard one day as more holy than another, but as long as they are doing this out of heartfelt desire to serve and worship the Lord and NOT out of a desire to earn righteousness, then I don't think we have any reson to fear for their salvation at all. On the other hand, there are those who would divide the body of Christ based upon day of worship. Who would assign the mark of the beast to some and the seal of God to others based on a day of worship. Some hold a theology that says someday everyone must choose which day they will worship on and the result of that choice and its accompanying actions will decide their eternal fate. Eternal life for Sabbath keepers and eternal damnation for all others. This was the view that was clearly taught by EGW in her book GC. In my mind, it clearly adds works as a requsite for salvation. As such, it denies salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, no matter what language may be used to try and get around the contradicition. I find it doubtful that you could fully embrace these views and still fully trust in Jesus alone for you salvation. Therefore, I have a great deal of concern for the most hardcore historic SDAs. I do fear that they may be depending on a false Gospel of works, a false prophet, and ultimately a false picture of Jesus for their salvation. There is no salvation in a lie so this does concern me greatly. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Melissa, I also relate to your obersvations. I've also spent a lot of time pondering those issues, and I still am pondering. I do believe that there are Adventists who trust Jesus alone for salvation. I believe there are many saved Adventists. But God never leaves us in our "sins" once we accept Jesus. He continues to teach us and to lead us to truth. I am also convinced that MANY Adventists are not saved because they haven't seen that Jesus is enough without any add-ons. The point that concerns me is that so many Adventists believe they've accepted Jesus, say they've accepted Jesus, but still believe their Adventism--particularly their Sabbath-keeping--is necessary FOR THEM. Even those who keep the Sabbath as a choice to honor God, I believe, are usually still tainted by the nearly subconcious fear that if they don't keep it, they MIGHT be sorry. I believe that people who are truly open to Jesus and desire truth will leave more and more of their Adventism behind until they find that een the seventh day can be abandoned. I do believe that Christ-followers can decide to dedicate a day to spiritual activities and spend that day differently than the others, and such a commitment can be a marvelous spiritual discipline for them that adds much to their lives. Speaking from my own experience, however, I really doubt that an Adventist can ever come to the point where the Sabbath is truly a choice and a discipline such as it would be for someone who never lived under the deception of Adventism. Because the Sabbath is near the heart of Satan's deception in the Adventist church, it carries a spiritual significance that a day would never carry for other Christians. It is a powerful deception because the Sabbath day was a shadow of Jesus himself. Satan has eclipsed Jesus with his own shadow inside Adventism. For an Adventist, the blessings of knowing Jesus are still ascribed to Sabbath observance. Even evangelical Adventists still feel an emotional and spiritual connection to the day. I remember well the pwoerful fear I experienced when I considered actually doing mundane work on Saturday, even after we had started having home church on Sundays and believing the day was irrelevant. I believe that in order to live in freedom with Christ, a person with an Adventist background will ultimately have to give up the Sabbath as an act of faith in God's grace. Such an act would never be necessary for a person who did not believe a day was important. I see the Sabbath to a former Adventist as being parallel to the meat offered to idols which Paul told the Corinthians not to eat. Paul said he himself could eat such meat because it meant nothing to him. He didn't believe in their gods, and he had not spiritual or emotional ties to them. The new Corinthians Christians, however, were not to eat that meat. It would evoke memories and habits and responses and feelings related to their former practices, and it would draw them back into their old superstitions. I'm not saying that a person who continues to keep the Sabbath is not saved. I am saying, however, that I believe God continues to call us to give up everything, and when we stop walking into total surrender, we stop growing in him, and we stop experiencing his active power and peace because we are insulating ourselves against conviction. I can't say when or whether any given Adventist is saved. I only know that God knows his sheep, and his sheep hear his voice. And when that voice calls us to trust him alone for our salvation, he will ultimately lead us to great risk and deep surrender of things we have grown to love and cherish in order for him alone to fill our hearts. For me, and, I believe for many (if not all) who have been Adventist, that call to surrender means giving up the Sabbath day because that day was the focus of a Satanic deception. Jesus is all we need. He wants to be all to which we cling. Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, I've been trying to find you since I got out of basic, lol. Email me @ jlondon81@yahoo.com. Joel | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Joel, Even though Seventh-day Adventism is an aberration of the Christian faith, God still speaks to many among them. More importantly, God is calling many out of Adventism as never before. While it is possible to be a Christian in Adventism, it shouldn't have to be so hard. At best, Satan wants to make God's plan of salvation as difficult and complex as possible. God never leaves His people in the darkness and ignorance where He found them. As G. A. Young wrote in his hymn, "God leads His dear children along. Some thru the waters, some thru the flood, Some thru the fire, but all thru blood; Some thru great sorrow, but God gives a song, In the night season, and all the day long." Let's continue to pray for our Adventist friends and relatives that they will have the courage of their convictions to depart from Adventism and truly find lasting peace in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
You know Dennis, I was reading the article you sent me on Law and Grace yesterday. It made me start thinking about the purpose of the law. It's there to show us how far from God's holiness we really are, how we could never acheive rigteouness by trying to keep the law, to show us our absolute need for a saviour, and to bring us to Christ. Once the law has fulfilled this tutorial role, we then find out that we no longer need that tutor because we have the Spirit instead. This made me think of life in Adventism. It seems just possible to me that God could use legalistic religions in a similar fashion in some lives. Perhaps if I'd grown up in a mainline church where some sort of liberal/social gospel was taught I would have just floated along my whole life thinking things were okay, but never knowing Jesus. The one thing Adventism did for me was absolutely convince me that my own efforts were worthless, that I would never be good enough to deserve Heaven, that I really needed some help, that something in life had to change. Ultimately my fear and despair drove me into the arms of Christ. After that, I no longer needed the legalism of Adventism. I'm not trying to suggest that Adventism is just like the law. The law is holy and just and good and I would not apply those terms to Adventism. I'm merely suggesting that God can use bad situations and even legalism to bring His chosen to Himself. Perhaps if I had not grown up with an inordinate focus on law I would never have realized my own inadequacy and need of Jesus. Maybe that's what I needed as an individual to bring me to my knees. Who knows? Chris | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Good point, Chris! | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
What bothers me about SDA's is they are still living as slaves: John 15:15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. I have repeatedly asked on another forum what the "Believer's Freedom" means to them as SDA's, and I get absolutely no replies from them, they honestly don't know! That is because they are still in bondage...they are Hagar's children and until the veil is taken away they will never enjoy the believer's freedom. I am not saying they are not saved, I am saying they are not realizing what is available to them and have not seen the full realization of Christ! Galatians 4 sums it up pretty well. 1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. Paul's Concern for the Galatians 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. 12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? 17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you! Hagar and Sarah 21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Pheeki...If you've got a story posted out there, let me know where, but elsewise, what is your background? Were you SDA or do you have a love one impacted by Adventism? You have such passion. I used to feel that passionate about the arguments with B, but when I realized that scripture had no real appeal to him except as Adventism defined it, I realized we had no common authority or basis from which to argue. And I lost the zeal for him. Though I still pray for him, I no longer argue with him. It's pointless. My passion now is saving others from their tactics. They have opened up a new church near my church and I talk to anyone who will listen ... because most of "my kind" have never really known much about them, and it seems about a 50/50 split whether they are considered a cult or denomination. I read a little on the carm board and I think I would just have headaches all the time if I went there often. It's not that the points don't need to be made, but the errors are so intertwined that unless someone is genuinely questioning something, they are literally blind to the truth before their eyes. For example, though B now seems to acknowledge that the 4th C doesn't REQUIRE worship on the 7th day (I know it's mentioned in Lev 23, but he can't go there because he's already agreed the aspects of those sabbaths are done away with), he can't make the next logical leap and wonder how, then, God is going to condemn people for worshipping on a "wrong" day ... or any of the other things they say about "us"...since he has not clearly defined a "right" day. How can the genuineness of my faith be questioned simply because of the day I park my body on a pew? They aren't interested any other aspect of me. There are a lot of questions I thought would appear when he simply recognized the 4th C was only about rest. If that is the case, even though I know it is fulfilled in Christ, I thought it might begin a flood of other questions, but it hasn't. Just last night I was talking to my women's group about my passion in this area trying to figure out how to harness that energy constructively for Christ's glory, without destroying my peace, joy, etc. We are starting a study called Holy Ambition, which is loosely based upon Nehemiah. The "lesson" of the book, if you will, is how to transform our God-given passions into something he can use. Anyway, I thought of you when talking about it because of your drive and devotion to the other board and your devotion to gospel purity. We have that in common. I just wondered how you got where you are. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Chris, I've also thought the same thing you wrote above, that God uses Adventism and other aberrant religions for his glory. My maternal grandmother grew up in Romania, and when she was 15 she and her sister became Adventists in spite of severe persecution from her Greek Orthodox family. They left the Greek Orthodox tradition because there they were not allowed to read the Bible, but the small Adventist company they found introduced them to scripture. My grandmother never really "bought" EGW--her role in Europe has never been the same as in the USA--and when questions of practice or behavior came up in my mom's home based on Ellen's "counsel", my grandmother would say, "I was baptized into Jesus Christ, not Ellen White." Nonetheless, she was a devout Adventist, kept the Sabbath faithfully, and even adhered stringently to the dietary requirements. When I was leaving, I had to think a lot about whether or not I should leave a church to which God had clearly brought by grandmother. I began to realize that God doesn't leave us in one place when he leads us to himself. A friend of my grandmother and her sister invited them to the home church where her family met, and the rest is history. I doubt my g.mom and her sis would have gonne to a different church alone. It took the personal invitation of a friend to come to her home. As it was, my grandma had to leave home to escape beinng persecuted and nearly killed by her brothers because she left the Orthodox tradition. Getting my grandma out of Greek Orthodoxy brought the Bible into my mom's family. God knew that he would use it to lead successive generations into deeper knowledge of himself. Just because he led Gma into Adventism didn't mean he intended for all her descendants to be stuck there. He wanted all of us to keep seeking him and to let him continue to reveal truth. I've thought about the significance of having grown up with such an intimate knowledge of the law and how that background has given me an understanding of the new covenant that is astonishingly freeing and vivid compared to the understanding SO MANY of my Christian acquaintances have. People such as former Adventists and WWCG members bring a very clear understanding of the gospel, of grace, and of the true position of the law into Christianity. As Elizabeth Inrig often says, "God never lets anyone sin successfully forever." The deception of Adventism is ultimately bound to be exposed. Meanwhile, God is redeeming its pervasive influence in us who have found Jesus and left that church. I often feel grateful that I grew up a conscientious Adventist because by contrast I now find living by the Spirit to be overwhelmingly liberating. I find the Bible to be alive and vibrant, a true portal into reality. God has always sovereignly used evil for his own purposes: just think of Nebuchadnezzar, the exile of Israel into Babylon and the captivity of Daniel and his friends (who, I realized during Bible study at church one night, were probably made eunuchs before being installed into positions of political prominence in a foreign land), Pharaoh's hard heart before the exile, the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus, etc. Since we are born into an evil world, it's inevitable that evil will touch all of us in some way. Some of us have been touched by the deceptionn of cults, but God in his sovereignty will use even the fallout from those cults to create something strong and beautiful through which He will glorify himself. Ultimately, Joseph summarized the paradox of living with God in an environment that is bent by evil: "You meant it for harm, but God meant it for good." I am so thankful we can trust him. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Hi Melissa...I know my entire story is here somewhere but I don't know where...the search was disabled because of something that happened to me and a few others last year... I was adopted at 3-days old by SDA parents. The SDA doctor who delivered me made sure of that...my birthmother was 16 and her family was Episcopalian and not devout...they didn't care where i went as long as I went away, quietly. So I was raised SDA. I attended SDA schools and church all my life. Was I saved? No. I made choices in my life based on being SDA...I married a man who was totally wrong for me but he was SDA, he wouldn't eat a bite of pork but would shoot cocaine into his jugular vein. I thought i was obligated not to be unequally yoked! What a colossal joke! I met my second husband at an SDA university while we were studying nursing. His father is an SDA minister, very traditional and very Ellen White oriented. They didn't like me at first because I wasn't a traditional SDA and had been divorced...I hid my true self from them as did my husband...SDA creates a double life, doesn't it. I took off my jewelry when I went to their house, we never let them know that we drank alcohol or ate meat...very hard to live like that. I was rebaptized in 1995 because the first time I was only 10 and just did it because that is what all 10-year-old SDA's do. Plus, I had been a terrible sinner in my eyes and needed a retake. From that point on, I was determined to become my sister-in-law, who was Ellen reincarnated. So, I was looking to man (woman) for salvation, instead of Jesus Christ. But that is the focus in the SDA church, isn't it? Well, for years I tried to be like her, SDA schools were not good enough (too worldly) for her kids...so she homeschooled...I tried homeschooling but what I didn't realize was...she was a stay at home mom! I wasn't...but I was so desperate to emulate her. I really messed my kids up, their formative school years were not good. I kept getting pregnant, plus I worked full time, they are still trying to recover. I tried to be a vegetarian, no dairy person...but I kept failing. I was raised eating the clean meat and I like it. So I was equating diet with salvation...totally unbiblical! As the years went on, I began to notice how unhappy her kids were. No social life, not allowed tv or fiction...emaciated looking. I began to think maybe Ellen's way wasn't the right way. Her 8-year-old son had migraines and an ulcer...she told me it was because "he carries the weight of the world on his shoulders." They had to be responsible for every idle word spoken, they had rules upon rules for the Sabbath and were also made to feel really elite. (Above other kids. No one met her standards for playmates.) I now look back and know it was terribly disfunctional...you know, I remember when I actually had it going pretty good, living up to those standards...I actually asked the Lord to go ahead and kill me off now so I would for sure be saved. I knew I couldn't hold it together long term...I knew I would backslide. I was terribly unhappy and in Aug. 2002, I was ready to chunk it all...SDAism, religion...I cried out to God to please show me what he wanted me to know...I coudn't do it on my own...I gave up! Boy did he. He lifted the veil and I have never been the same since. I think it started this way...I remembered that Ellen approved of Martin Luther...so I decided to see what he believed that would make her like him. I read all about him and how he was married to the book Galatians...so I read Galatians and my eyes were starting to open. I wanted to see what Ellen actually said about him so I typed in her name as a search...I got all the anti-Ellen websites out there. Now that was an eye opener and it came just as I was really becomming aware her ways were not God's ways. I began to learn that God had been misrepresented by the SDA's. Wine was not grape juice. Sabbath was not the seal of God. All food is clean and the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking. Tithing is an old covenant practice and is some thing totally different in the NC. (also the tithe was never money unless the destination was too long to carry all that stuff so they could sell it for money to buy wine, strong drink, etc. and they were to celebrate in front of the Lord...Deut. 14) God didn't forbid jewelry, in fact he used analogies about putting nose rings into people's noses to make them beautiful. But the most striking thing I found was that we can have assurance of salvation. In the SDA church they want to smack out every trace of assurance we have. That is what I have come up against on CARM. I think it stems from Ellen saying we are never to say we are saved...plus the fact they think they play a part in their own salvation instead of simply believing Christ did it all. My friend Patti put it nicely...she said the believe salvation is like a ping pong game...one side of the table is saved, the other not...the ball bounces back and forth...you have to hope it lands on the saved side. I got the mental picture of someone plucking petals off a daisy..."I'm saved, I'm not saved." To me, that is one of the devil's oldest tricks in the book...getting a person to believe that they are so sinful Christ can't possibly save them...but we are all sinners and if that was true and sin could separate us from Jesus...we are separated as we speak. The other trick I see that has been pulled on them is to think they are the elite remnant, the only ones actually keeping the commandments...as if any of us really could. Using the Sabbath doctrine to divide the body of Christ...division is not of Jesus...we know where it comes from! They have passed judgment on the rest of the Body of Christ and by doing so have in effect passed judgment on Jesus. (actually on themselves!) Salvation is not about US, and what we accomplish, it is about Jesus and what he accomplished! WE CANNOT BE SNATCHED! But they don't believe this. They don't believe in the promises of God, and I cannot figure out why. It seems so much simpler to than to pull out obscure texts from Revelation to base your theology on. (you know the old Sabbath proof text, "worship the creator of heaven and earth." that is how they say Sabbath worship is commanded in the NC. Seems like a stretch to me!) So, I like you have a husband who is still SDA. At first we had terrible trouble but I have learned what you have learned that it is no use to argue...so I take my fight to the web. If I can keep one person from falling for a gospel that has been added to by people (conditions), then I will. Sometimes I really want to give up...but I pray and the Lord tells me how to respond. Thanks for being interested. If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer...I know I didn't cover it all...my hand is cramping. vw (pheeki) | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
I love the analogy about plucking petals from a daisy. "Now He saves me, now He don't". SOOOOO Adventist... | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
It seems like it's been pretty recent (2002), and some pretty harsh years. Have you given yourself time to heal? What does your husband say to you, if anything about your transition...or do you still go to the SDA church? Has your lifestyle changed outwardly, or do you just scream it silently? Do you have a local support system? |
