| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I've heard a lot about Advent here at the Protestant chapel I attend on post. What is it? | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
We are currently in "Advent" or "the Advent Season" if you prefer. Advent runs from the day after Thanksgiving until Christmas Day. It is the season of the year when we celebrate the first advent of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ......in other words, Christmas time. We as Christians also always look forward to the second advent of our Lord, the second coming. It is the second advent that the name Seventh-day Adventists refers to. Too bad the SDA founders didn't pay more attention to the implications of the first advent! Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
The local radio station has been talking about the advent as well, and the four candles that are lit (the first one representing the prophecies that foretold the birth). I had heard the phrase, but it seems to be similar to the hannukkah tradition of lighting candles but to remember certain things leading up to Christ's birth. It has been new to me as well. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Melissa and Joel, How very sad, yet understandable that you both have had relatively little contact with or understanding of the traditions of the Advent season. I would venture to guess you both have a similar lack of experience with the full Lent, Passion Week, and Easter traditions. No one should be surprised at this. This, in my opinion, is yet another revelation of the distance between Seventh-day Adventism and most reasonably Scriptural and Gospel based denominations. Why should you have learned about these things? After all, the birth and death of Christ are just a couple of boring historical incidents in the life of the ěUltimate Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath keeper.î (Iím being sarcastic, of course.) To us ědeluded Babylonians,î those two events including everything before and after are the most important focal points of Christianity. More important (try not to gasp) than the ěSabbath truth.î Ah, well . . . | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
AHHHHHH, but I was raised in the southern baptist persuasion! Let me clarify, I've never heard of the advent traditions with the candles, etc., but we have always spent weeks (and months if you count the time to practice dramas) focusing upon the birth of Christ. Just not the advent 'traditions' as I've been hearing about recently. but No, I've never had much experience with the tradition of lent either. (at least not as I understand the catholic perception of lent in giving up something for 6 weeks) Passion week, probably again because of the drama's I've been in over the years, and Easter has always been the highlight of our year. I didn't mean to confuse the issue of the advent tradition and the birth of Christ. But from my experience with B, he downplays the significance of the resurrection. He even asked me one time "wasn't the "important" thing about easter his death, which paid the price for our sin?" I pulled a bunch of scriptures on the importance of the resurrection, but historically he says "non-adventists" focus on chocolate bunnies and easter eggs at easter. We eat unclean meat (ham) to boot. This year, for the first time in 4 years, B went with me to church on easter. But while the Sabbath is so important to celebrate each week, the resurrection is not so important. his words, not mine. The resurrection should be reflected upon privately. They can't built up the resurrection, or they might understand the church father's desire to make a weekly celebration of it. I share your sacastic perspective of 'babylonians', Jerry. B gets mad when I call us that, but I remind him it is a term his religion made for me, I didn't create it. At least the baptist churches I've been in don't focus on the advent traditions. That is very different than a lack of focus on Christ's birth. Sorry for any confusion on that point. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
My understsanding is that Advent as well as Lent and Easter, etc. (the liturgical year, it is called) is an integral part of liturgical churches such as Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc. I believe it was developed by the very early Catholic Church. I know that some of the world's greatest church music was designed around the liturgical year. J.S. Bach (who was Lutheran, by the way, living as he did in Germany during the first half of the 17th century) wrote much choir and organ music for the liturgical year. In fact, I have a book of Bach's organ preludes entitled "The Liturgical Year". I've always loved the fact that Bach wrote "Soli Deo Gloria" (to the glory of God) on his compositions. While he did write some secular music, he was primarily a church musician. (My goodness, how did I get off on music?!) Oh, yes--the liturgical year! Traditionally the different seasons of the liturgical year have different traditional colors on the priests vestments, the altar cloths, even the choir's stoles. The scriptures each week also match the litrugical season. These liturgical seasons focus on all of the main points of Christ's life. It's all really a rich and beautiful tradition with a treasure trove of incredible music. Churches that observe the liturgy often tend to be formal or stylized to some degree. Even though I love the rich heritage of church music, however, I am so thankful now also to have the incredible privilege of personal worship and praise! Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oops, sorry Melissa. Bad guess on my part. Focusing on the birth and death, regardless of specific traditional forms was more of what I was meaning. You may not have seen this or that specific practice. However, for my wife and other SDAís I have met, Christmas and Easter are almost only about ěSanta Clausî and ěthe Easter bunny.î She would not care if we did nothing on those days. We donít know on exactly what day the historical events really took place. However, since we, as Christians, have been admonished to ěnot forsak(e) the assembling of ourselves togetherî we must recognize that congregational worship is a valid part of our faith. If that includes intricate traditions and ceremonies, as long as they are to the Glory of God, we can be pleased to participate or observe. Personal, or corporate, the more praise and worship, the better. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
No problem, I wasn't clear. I have just seen B ridicule other "Christians" for their practices as though they are pagan. But I'm learning it is hard to say what B does is universal for all SDAs vs. just his church/friends/family. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Well that does help. I was just curious because I have been a Christian for some time, and I'm a regular here as some of you know, but only twice have I ever heard of Advent. Thanks. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Melissa, there is a deep seated belief within historic Adventism that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays. In my experience, Christmas has been somewhat less controversial with only a few hardcore types refusing to celebrate the season. However, Easter is an entirely different matter. I grew up in the Midwest in the 70s and at that time having anything to do with Easter was considered very bad. Only the bad Adventist died Easter eggs and no one talked about the resurrection. In my midwestern experience, it has really only been the last decade or so that has seen a wide spread acknowldgement of Easter within SDA churches. However, this "acknowldgement" usually only consists of 1) an off-handed mention of Easter from the pulpit on the Saturday before Easter and 2) a completly secular observance (eggs and candy) by the laity on Easter Sunday. It is still extrememly rare within Adventism to hold any type of Easter Sunday service to mark the resurrection. I think Christmas has had an easier time gaining acceptance with SDAs because it does not always fall on a Sunday. Here's an interesting story about Christmas: The other evening I was looking through my "baby" book which actually has events from several years of my childhood recorded in it. I ran across a couple of enteries regarding Christmas. They both said something to the effect of: "Christmas fell on Sabbath this year so we waited till after Sabbath to have Christmas." Excuse me? Evidently we couldn't celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ because the Sabbath was more important. Anyone see anything wrong with this picture? | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I don't mean to start a Christmas (or Easter)debate here, but I think we need to be careful about judging others in the manner in which they choose (or choose not) to celebrate church traditions that have absolutely no basis in scripture (i.e. lent, advent, Christmas, etc.). We are given clear instructions in scripture for how to celebrate Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection--and it has nothing to do with Sunrise services on Resurrection Sunday. The Bible is absolutely silent on the subject of Jesus' birth. I am not saying that we should not honor these traditions. I personally have been blessed by my participation in these types of worship celebrations since I left Adventism; however, I believe this is clearly a case where Romans 14 applies. As far as waiting until after the Sabbath to celebrate Christmas, I think that is a reference to the gift exchanging that takes place on Christmas. I am sorry, but I really find it difficult to reconcile the giving of a nintendo set to my son with the birth of Christ, so I could see why someone might want to separate the two. Just my $.02 worth. Doug | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
I have good Christian, not-SDA friends who are extremely intent on giving their children clarity about Christian beliefs. They would not allow their children to be exposed to Harry Potter, for example, because He Who Must Not Be Named has something like a re-incarnation, and the parents feared that the children would associate Jesus and that evil, fictional character. (I happen to think they are way over-concerned about Harry Potter... but that's a different topic.) I bring it up because these parents have their Christmas-equivalent gift opening on New Year's Eve. It's a similarly celebrated evening, with comparatively little to offer children (watching twenty-somethings kiss in Times Square is not an 8-year-old's idea of a good time). That works for them, and seems like a reasonable and laudable idea to me. I have noted to myself, that this timing also affords them the opportunity to take advantage of after-Christmas sales! I don't know if they rescue a neighbor's defrocked Christmas tree. Nothing wrong with recycling, right?  I like the idea of separating the celebration of Jesus' birth from the excessive preoccupation with stuff that characterizes our usual Christmas experience. I have a tension about being weird, though. It's strange enough, being Christian. I want to appear "normal" enough to my non-Christian friends, that they are as open as possible to my occasionally talking about my beliefs. I don't like the idea that they will hear that I have some unconventional practice around Christmas, for example, so they classify as a nut and that opportunity for talking up Jesus is closed. - Hoytster | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Doug, I think the point of the story is that the Sabbath is the very center of all worship and adoration for Adventists. It comes in importance before all else, in some cases before God Himself. The Sabbath day has become and idol for some SDAs. Certainly Christian charity in the non-essentials (Rom 14) may be applied to Easter or Christmas, but that is not the same as saying that legalistic teachings and cultures must be accepted (see Galations). The Adventists that I know who don't celebrate Christmas or Easter tend to not do so for legalistic reasons then look down on the Babylonians that do celebrate these holidays. That's legalism. Finally, knowing the family I grew up in, I know that it was intensely legalistic. You can believe me when I say we didn't celebrate Christmas on Sabbath for very legalistic reasons. I do believe it is entirely appropriate to call legalism, legalism. I would apply the same criteria to JWs who forbid their members to celebrate Christmas or Easter. The only difference is that the JWs enforce their legalism with ousting while Adventists do it through peer pressure and a subtle system that identifies how good an Adventist your are based upon what you do or don't do. Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I had 2 thoughts reading this...first, is are you aware of the history of Halloween? That "celebration" actually started out as a "Christian" event, turned questionable. Though I know that pagan events were observed on 12/25, finding an alternative to pagan events (as my church does now with our fall festival on Halloween) really is no different. Kids don't necessarily understand why they can't go trick or treating or whatever, but if you give them something "better", neither do they miss it. Maybe Christmas came to be observed as it is in similar circumstances??? (Just a guess....) Secondly, Christmas is my birthday as well. I'm not one big on celebrating such things, but as I've gotten older, I've come to miss a day where I get to feel recognized and "special" and where I don't have to do all the work for a day. Not only do I compete with the commercial Christmas, the Christian Christmas, but my own selfish interest to be noticed as well. I'd rather get a birthday present than a Christmas present. In a way, though, I think my kids have gotten to see the birthday aspect separate from the gift giving aspect. Maybe that helps them separate it from Christ's birth celebration as well. But I don't consider it a holy day as in a reference to Romans 14 above. B did report that the kids at his church held an easter egg hunt this year on easter morning. Just two short years after his same pastor preached a sermon blasting those sundaykeepers for easter eggs, chocolate bunnies and ham. He didn't mention what his sermon was this year, but I did find it peculiar that they were now partipating in such pagan rituals. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The reality of the new covenant has settled many of these issues in my own mind. For a Christ-follower, there is no division between sacred and secular. There IS good and evil, but sacred and secular are moot points. When we live with Jesus and he is our Sabbath rest 24/7, everything we do is "sacred". That's where the reality of living by the Spirit comes in. He lets us know when we are not honoring him or not trusting him. He convicts us and also gives us his power and incentive to change. Celebrating Easter and Christmas have completely new meanings for Richard and me now. Both are amazing because of what they represent for our salvation. Celebrating Christmas is even more wonderful now than before, although I'm less and less drawn to the Santa/reindeer parts of the season! Easter has been a gift of grace to us. It has become a significant holiday to me, and the egg/bunny symbols are even more out-of-place to me than are the Santa symbols of Christmas. I do think it's interesting that so many Adventists do Easter egg hunts, etc., but they won't overtly celebrate the resurrection. Somehow to them the "Catholic-ness" of the day is FAR more offensive to them than the pagan realities of the fertility symnbols of eggs and bunnies! Richard said he's figured out why Christians eat ham on Easter: it's the consummate new covenant food! Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
I really enjoyed your post.Thanks |
