| Author | Message | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Do you recommend that I take on these beliefs directly? Should I take my son through the Scriptures, trying to argue with him? My sense is that he is already well-armed to resist my arguments. I'm not a Bible scholar, and it is not my (Methodist) church's tradition to carry on such arguments. So I'm not sure I could be persuasive anyway. If not the Scriptures, I could take him to the various anti-SDA web sites and try to go through them with him. I could show him Rea's "The White Lie" etc. There's a problem, though. My son is the subject of a custody fight. There is a wide perception that he is stressed out. I am trying very hard NOT to make him a battlefield. So I'm inclined to trust in God and hope that my son comes through it all whole. What do you think? Thanks, Hoytster | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dear Leigh, My daddy died on October 16, 2002, not quite a year ago. He was 93 years old the month before his death. He had been raised from birth SDA. Now I will share something with you and all those out in Cyberland that has brought me to tears many times. I really need to let this go in my heart and leave it to my Heavenly Father but, I am stubberon and God knows this so I pray for peace in my heart about this. Here it is: My daddy knew death would come get him soon. He was bright and alert mentally until about a day and a half before his passing. He became bedridden 16 days before his passing. Several weeks before his death I was at my parents house and I could hear my dad praying from in his bedroom. I was in the living room and the bedroom is just down the hall and the bedroom door was open and I could hear my dads prayer. It got me so upset that I began to cry and I came home (I live next door). My dads prayer went something like this, "Our Father in Heaven, I know I will not be around much longer so please forgive me from all the wrongs I've done. I have always tried to keep Sabbath as holy as I can and if I have not kept Sabbath perfect during my life please forgive me. I have never committed adultry. I have been faithful to my wife during our married life. (They were married 54 years.) I don't think I have ever stolen anything but if I have please forgive me because it would have been an accident on my part but stealing is always wrong so if I ever did steal anything I need to be forgiven for it. I don't ever recall taking Your Name in vain but if I ever did please forgive me...." And, he continued going through all the 10 commandments and never did menton Jesus or grace, etc. in his prayer. I got the feeling that I was easedropping on a very private conversation, a conversation between my daddy and our Creator and I was happy that he was such a good and wonderful man and was going to God in prayer at his end but I was so sad that the prayer only focused on the 10 commandments. It it so different with the Lutherans. They praise God at their end that they will be soon at the feet of Jesus rejoycing eternally in His glory. It is so different. // I will be on the Big Island. Hawaii. In fact, my two (semi)adult children who live there phoned yesterday. Apparently they had gotten up yesterday morning (Saturday) and were sitting on the side of the road drinking a beer and trying to hitchhike into town. A lady pulled up and told them she was going into town and offered them a ride. After they got into her car she told them she was on her way to church and she asked them if they would like to go to church with her. My son asked her what church she was going to and she said, "Seventh-day Adventist" and my childrn went on to tell her that was how they had sort-of been raised and that their grandma is SDA as are most their kin and that if the church she was going to had potluck after the service like the SDA churchs here in California do then they'd go to church with her. She assurred them that the Hawaii SDA churches have potluck after the service so they went to church. Then on Sundays they go over to the Hare Krishna commune because the Hare Krihnas have a big vegetarian feast open to everyone every Sunday. Well, they are getting by and I'm happy about that. We will be camping. The only place I really have a big desire to see over there other than what my boys want to show me is Pearl Harber as I do want to go pay my respects to our fallen commrads. // Hoytster I haven't a clue of your best plan of action. I will though pray for your situtation and then believe that the Good Lord will work out what is going on with you, your ex and your child that it will work out the best possible way it can. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, How old is your son? I can't remember if you told us. I don't believe you should have as a goal to try to convince him that Adventism is wrong. He'll feel your emotional tension, and that will probably cause him some confusion and stress. I do believe, though, that when he is with you, you should take him to church with you, pray with him, talk about Jesus and your own experience with Jesus, and generally live a life so connected to Jesus that your son will see its power and its love and be compelled by it. Studies show, by the way, that children tend to adopt their fathers' religious views much more frequently than their mothers' if their is a difference of opinion. Somehow the father really is the "priest" of the family, and both boys and girls are statistically much more likely to be believers if their fathers are than if only their mothers are. Remember that this is a spiritual battle. Pray for your son, and prya for the Holy Spirit to protect and guide him to Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Leigh and Susan2, How sad to hear of your relative's beliefs that only those who believe in the Sabbath or are "ignorant" of the Sabbath belief can enter the kingdom of Heaven. Something I was thinking of last night when I was trying to get to sleep: at what point is a person no longer "ignorant" of the Sabbath teaching? For example, my parents who are like Leigh's description of her grandmother, good Christian people who pray and read their Bibles have heard snatches of the so-called "Sabbath Truth" from exposure to my husband: are they now "lost?" Collen, I'm saddened to hear of the studies that show children tend to adopt the religious views of their fathers. I'm getting extremely concerned as my 8 year old daughter has seen the baptisms of 2 schoolmates and another friend and is now saying she wants to be baptized I'm praying for you, Hoyster. I'm not going through a divorce, but we do have conflicts of opinion about the SDA church. I agree with Colleen to not try to convince your son that the SDA church is wrong, but to be an example to him of Christ's love. It's not always easy though.. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Madelia, Probably most of sda's believe that: 'Good christian people who pray and read their Bibles who have heard snatches of the so-called "Sabbath Truth,"'but don't accept it are lost. There is probably a small percentage who don't.Or they believe (and I have said this, too in the past) that they will see the "truth" before the close of probation and come out of Babylon and accept the Sabbath. The "Sabbath Truth" presented by your husband and the "Sabbath Truth" presented by my father to his parents and others in his family is probably enough (atleast in their minds) to constitute presenting the "truth" and then it's up to the recipiant to accept or reject the "truth." If the hearer doesn't accept, they are probably considered lost. It's sad. All the judging . I don't remember learning this text in sda school: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat , or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon,or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16,17 I was presented with this text about 11 years ago when I was having a discussion about the sabbath. I was trying to "prove" the Sabbath to a Christian (nonadventist) coworker. I thought to myself, "I didn't know the Bible said that." When I got home that night, I looked it up and also did some reading in the book of Romans. I was amazed at what was there. My prayers are with you. Leigh | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I too was deeply bummed to hear of Colleen's study information. It makes me wonder if I have any influence on my kids at all. I get so tired trying to do the right thing and then wonder if it will matter at all. Do you hear an "Oh vanity" coming? I think it's because I have a retarded child that I know God can and does allowing suffering in the lives of those who are his. And some days it's just hard to be "up" for another round of battles. But I don't know how to give up either. Sometimes no matter how I pray, how I follow the leading of the Spirit, things are "bad" from where I sit. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other waiting for the next sucker-punch. How black is that cloud following me these days.... | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Melissa, I pray that the cloud of blackness will be lifted from you. I pray Philippians 4:6-7 for you. I pray that you will be anxious for nothing. I pray that as you lift up your prayers of supplication and thanksgiving, the peace of God surpassing all comprehension, will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. Chris | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Hoyster, I'm praying for your situation. I have a 10 year old also. The most important thing that I feel that I need to teach my children is that they are saved by the grace of God, not by works, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9 AND that the Bible in it's entirety and in context is the ultimate authority. Adventists seem to look at the laws of the old covenant and make them fit into the new covenant and pull texts out of context. A lot of EGW's writings add things to Bible stories, so much so, that what I though was a Biblical account of a familiar story actually was not. It had extra details added to it. For example, just recently I was reading to my younger child about the tower of Babel from a christian reference book and I was wondering where the part about God striking the tower with lightening was. We went to the Bible to read the story, as the lesson plan suggests, and the part about God destroying the temple wasn't there. However, when i looked it up in Patriarchs and Prophets (an egw book, if you aren't familiar with the name of the book), it was. "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6 I have told my children to check everything out by the Bible, even their Sabbath school lessons(Especailly their sabbath school lessons!!!).(We still go , I haven't cut the strings yet.) Everytime I study the Bible, I claim the promise of James 1:5: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it whall be given him." My prayers are with you. Leigh | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Hoytster, sorry I spelled your name wrong. Leigh | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I am so sorry I made you feel down, Melissa and Madelia. While those studies do show that kids tend to adopt their father's religious views, there's still one more factor to consider, and it's more powerful than the statistics: Truth is stronger than evil, and Jesus is stronger than evil. Remember that Paul talks in 1 Corinthians 6 about unbelieving spouses and children being made holy by being with the believing spouse (parent). I don't know exactly how all that works, but I do know that if you ask God to guard your child from the evil that wants to claim him/her for itself and to send the Holy Spirit to minister to his/her heart and to convict him/her of the truth about Jesus, he will honor your prayer. While the child will unltimately have to choose for himself, still your offering your child to God for his protection and care and spiritual growth will have a powerful effect on that child's life. When you are a Christ-follower, God sends people into your life to help you pray for your children. (I suspect that even when parents are not Christ-followers, God provides people to pray for their children.) I have a colleague who told me that four years ago she attended a play at our school. She knew who our older son was, and she remembers watching him as he had a part in that play. She says she knew he had a younger brother, but she didn't even know his name at that time. What she clearly remembers, however, is that as she watched our older son do his part, she clearly had the thought, "Pray for his younger brother." She has been obediently praying for our younger son for the past four years (she knows him quite well now!), but she didn't tell me about this event until quite recently. I know that God has done some remarkable things in our younger son's heart, and I am absolutely humbled and in awe as I realize that God has provided spiritual protection and prayer for him that I had no idea was happening. So, Melissa and Madelia, don't be discouraged. God knows what your children need, and he is providing for them and protecting them in ways you cannot imagine. I'm sure that many of us on this forum are praying for your children, also! I know I am. Colleen | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
Colleen, Thanks for the prayers and encouragement! | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Thanks, all, for your thoughtful and helpful responses. Leigh, I'm going to go forward with this in mind: "Hoyster, I'm praying for your situation. I have a 10 year old also. The most important thing that I feel that I need to teach my children is that they are saved by the grace of God, not by works..." I will also take your advice, and discuss specific passages with my 10-year-old. I've started a new document for that purpose, and noted the Deuteronomy 14:22-27 passage referenced in another thread in this forum. I feel as though you are all allies in this struggle. Between you and God, I am hopeful that my son will come through all right. Blessings on all - Hoytster | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Last night I learned that the ex has been spanking the five-year-old so much that the little girl's bottom is entirely black-and-blue. Over a year ago, the state child protective services agency was called in, but the main witness (the live-in nanny, another good SDA) lied about the abuse, and the state concluded that there was no finding of abuse. Believe it or not, in this state (NH), it is legal to spank your child that much, that hard, as long as it's on the bottom. This nanny had previously told the person that called in the state, that the then four-year-old suffered a cut on her neck sufficient to threaten her life and keep her out of pre-school for two weeks, when her mother threw her across the hot tub. The person who made the call is an ex-SDA, who explained that this kind of behavior is sanctioned by the Adventist church, on the grounds that in the end time, children will turn against their parents. I found that unbelievable. True? Is there any SDA belief that sanctions such physical abuse? - Hoytster | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hoytster, I very much doubt that the SDA church officially supports the kind of abuse you describe. In fact, I would suspect that, if you brought this type of incident to the attention of most of the church hierarchy, you would hear strong condemnation of the behavior. One of the real issues that you most likely witnessed is the ìus versus themî mentality. Some Adventists might treat revealing a serious problem to the ìoutside worldî as treasonous to ìthe truth.î This is not exclusive to the SDA church, of course. Another issue you may have witnessed is a form of judgmental discipline taken to an unusual extreme. While one can argue that a legalist theology fosters an environment where this type of behavior is more likely to occur, such a conclusion might not be easy to substantiate. Abuse of every kind is rampant throughout society. This does not excuse the behavior you described, but it does call into question any determinations about why it occurs based on theology. What I can say about this issue (based on direct knowledge of this sort of behavior among Adventists) is that being ìin the truthî does not ìperfectî the behavior of members any more than adherence to any other belief system. I will pray for your daughter. She desperately needs help. Jerry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, I will also pray for your daughter. No, such behavior is not sanctioned by the church. It is, however, more common unofficially than many people want to admit within the church. I think Jerry described the reasons for the prevalence of abuse quite well above. My experience suggests that the more "right-wing" the brand of Adventism, the more physically abusive the behavior. On the liberal end, there's much more permissiveness and even ultimately behavior one might expect to see among unbelievers. I suggest that you immediately get legal advice re: steps to take to protect your daughter, especially long-term. I still don't think you can use the Adventism as an argument in a custody battle, but you might want to involve a professional child counselor. Your daughter will need some help healing not only physically from what's happening in her life. A counselor (especially if it's a Christian counselor) can be very helpful in diagnosing the the situation and the trauma your daughter is experiencing and also in helping her to deal with the anger and hurt in her heart. Good Christian counselors can help children learn that Jesus can heal their wounds and can give them a base of emotional support even parents can't give in certain situations. And we will pray. Colleen | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
It's a long story, but I have no legal standing with this little girl. In a nutshell: I never married mom and never adopted the little girl. She arrived from the Ukraine a year before we split up, singly adopted by my ex. We have a biological child (the aforementioned 10-year-old boy) who is the subject of our on-going custody fight. He has kept the abuse secret from me. I'm confident that his mother has threatended him with like treatment if he tells anyone. She draws a line in the sand, and anyone who steps over it is "disfellowshipped" by the ex, including the favorite aunt who called in the authorities in the five-year-old girl's case. All I can do is pray for the little girl, and her siblings, and her mother. Thank you for your prayers. - Hoytster | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Hoyster, Surely there are some child protection services personnel that can help these children! I would beat their doors down until they did something! how horrible! I am praying for you all. One thing you have to remember, there are some good SDA people that mean well and are deceived, that doesn't change the fact that the religion is inspired by a demon spirit and I know that sounds harsh, but basically if it's not of God, it's of the devil. I would ask the ex-SDA person you mentioned to help if possible. I speak grace, grace to it, may the mountain become a plain. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, you are in a REALLY difficult situation. Pray that the truth will become known and that God will protect this child (and your own) and provide safety for them. You may discover, as you walk down this path, that God is also calling you in ways you have not previously experienced. Remember, Hoytster, that the truth sets us free. Jesus is the truth, and he shines the light of truth on our lives and heals us as we are willing to know the truth about our situations. Surrender of any part of our lives to Jesus is difficult and feels like losing ourselves, but when He makes issues clear to us, we must follow him if we wish to continue to grow in Him. Ask God to protect your chidren and to show you his will for you, and ask him to give you the faith in Him to do what he leads you to do and to surrender in the ways he directs you. I still think I'd ask a family law attorney for some legal advice re: your girl. I know that calling CPS often yields no action. God knows what's needed, however; keep praying for truth to be known. We continue to pray for you. Colleen | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Maybe this is a place where I can raise something that's been troubling me. It is part of my personality that I am optimistic. I expect things to work out well. As my religious convictions have grown, I have come to feel that my optimism is justified by God's love for me. I feel that it is His plan to have things work out for the best. What is troubling is my reaction to a court decision this past June, which ended my hopes of sustaining a relationship with three young children, one of whom was an 8-year-old who called me Daddy since he could talk. All three were singly adopted, and I was asking our state supreme court to give me legal standing so I could ask for custodial rights. I lost that case. I no longer know those children. They no longer have a father. I was so confident that I would win that case, because it was the right thing, so God would make it happen. I feel like God has let me down. Oops, got to go. More later, maybe. Thanks so much for your concern and prayers. - Hoytster | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Hoyster, I would say that I understand totally what you are saying. I have been there also, believing that God would not allow a divorce for my daughter but you see we have no control over what happens because the devil is alive and well. All we do know is that all things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:20 Carol |
