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Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, I'm with you. It ultimately doesn't matter to me. I'm here one moment, I hear the trumpet and Christ's voice the next. Whether it happens simultaneously, or after 10,000 years have passed, it is the same diff to me. *blink* I'm here, *blink* I'm with Christ.
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joel, they say those are examples of what Christ will do for us, and that they are alive in Heaven because they have both body and spirit together...body our physical form, spirit = breath of God...

Well don't misunderstand me Freeatlast, it does matter to me alot. I'm thrilled to know I go to be with Christ immediately, even though my body remains here. I just know I'm not going to get in huge debates over it, though I believe the truth about resting with Jesus at death would give a good many SDA's a lot more peace at death and about their loved ones.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, thank you for your comments above. We know a surgeon who is a former Adventist. He said that one reason he decided he had to figure out the truth was that Adventists do not die well. They are full of fear. I never perceived the doctrine of soul sleep as a comfort as I was taught it was. I always thought it seemed more comforting to think my loved ones were safe in the arms of Jesus, not lost in limbo for an undetermined number of years.

Colleen
Violet (Violet)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is the IJ reconciled with people already in heaven, and what about those who came out of the graves at Christ's reserection?

This death thing is still real cloudy for me. Although I love to read the Lazareth story Jesus told and think about the bossom of Abraham.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They say, as Sherry mentioned, that Enoch and Elijah are examples to us of what is possible. They claim that Enoch is an example of a man that lived so perfectly God took him. The implication is clear: we, too, can live that perfectly. The fact that we are not in heaven is just proof that we have not attained perfection.

Moses, on the other hand, they say was resurrected. There is absolutely no biblical proof of that claim. They refer to the passage in Jude where Michael the archangel wrestled with Satan over the BODY of Moses. They claim Michael (whom they say is Christ) won, and Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven. Ellen makes this claim very clearly. It is nowhere in the Bible. As far as the graves at Jesus' resurrection--they don't deal with that. I assume they assume that those people were brought to life and died again later, as Lazarus did. I've never heard them comment on that event.

Just ask Jesus to reveal the truth to you, Violet. He will. I still marvel how the whole spirit/soul sleep/hell issue opened up to me over a period of months, one step at a time. The Bible is really quite clear, and the Holy Spirit is faithful to teach us.

Praising God for life,
Colleen
Bmorgan (Bmorgan)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait a minuite Colleen, if I remember correctly, according to the Adventist, the people raised with Jesus went around Jerusalem knocking on doors testifying that Christ is risen. Now they represent the twenty four Elder in the book of Revelation.

The church was "studying" Revelation in their SS Lessons the year I was converted.I was prime target for brain washing. I had absolute no clue about the bible.

Do you remember the famous quote "When the book of Daniel and Revelation are understood by the church, then Christ will come." No wonder there were always people trying to "get it right." Oh well, looking back I sometimes wonder how I survived the mental torture--the grace of God Almighty.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Bmorgan! I had never heard that! Well, so now we not only know about those resurrected but about the 24 elders as well!

I agree with you: the grace of God Almighty is what preserved us and is also what brought us out! I praise Him!

Colleen
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm....now I thought Moses and Elijah being on the Mt. of Transfiguration was enough to say the Moses was resurrected. He had a body in the transfiguration. Even though our spirits be with God, He does come to resurrect our bodies....to me it makes sense....am I missing something? I am blonde after all. :)
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pop Quiz.

Sermon title: Beds of Paralysis
Text: John 5:1-9,19

Questions:

1. Why were verses 10-18 left out?
2. Why were verses 20-47 left out?


Answers:

1. Verses 1-9 change from merely a revelation of the power of Jesus to heal to the beginning of an object lesson about the true meaning of the Sabbath.
2. Verse 19 changes from merely a statement that Jesus derives his authority from God the Father to the first part a statement that Jesus is God the Son and that belief alone entitles one to everlasting life.

Yet, is it not amazing how the sermon title could still make sense?

Taken from next Sabbathís bulletin.
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, Ellen also says in her book "Early Writings" that Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration represent two classes of people: those who died before Christ's second coming (Moses), and those who remain and are alive at His second coming (Elijah). Nothing about representing the Law and the Prophets. Hmm... I wonder why not...
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, I don't get it... Can you please help me out by expanding on your point further? It's still early morning out here in California and I'm a little bit slow of mind.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sherry, I really don't know for sure the answer to your question. I also don't know why Michael would struggle with Satan for the body of Moses. I do know that Revelation 1:5 says Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead."

I'm comfortable with assuming that God "did" the transfiguration for the bigger purpose of illustrating the soon-to-arrive new covenant. Whether or not Moses has a body as we speakówhether or not Moses and his physical condition are even related to time at this pointóI don't know.

So, I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that Ellen's explanation defies the scriptural claims that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

Colleen
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No need to apologize, Freeatlast. The post was quite enigmatic.

This may only have significance to me, but I feel it is proper to place the post in this topic. I find it very interesting that a Seventh-day Adventist will use this text in a Sabbath service.

Now, I feel compelled to sermonize. I do this not because I will teach anyone here a new concept, and not because I think anyone here has a deficient understanding about this subject. Rather, to express how strongly I think the Lord is talking about the subject of John, chapter five. Further, to express how Adventists must so carefully dismember this text in order to avoid important problems presented to the SDA theology.

First, let us go back to Exodus, chapter 31: verses 12 through 18. I use the KJV simply because it is easy for me to copy in my environment.

[12] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[13] Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
[14] Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[15] Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[17] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
[18] And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

We will ignore the ìchildren of Israel,î and ìperpetual covenantî issues for now. We can address them later, if anyone wishes.

Now, zero in on verse fourteen and fifteen. Do you see the unconditional, harsh, and powerful penalty for doing any work? If you are under the Sabbath and you do ANY WORK WHATSOEVER, you DIE!!!

This is not a symbolic death, which leaves you physically alive. It is a DOUBLE DEATH! Your body AND your soul are terminated completely and finally.

Next, we jump over to the Gospel.

Look carefully at what Jesus told the cripple to do. He said, ìRise, pick up your bed, and walk.î

When Jesus said those four words, ìpick up your bed,î and the cripple complied, they both flagrantly violated the Sabbath. The cripple violated the Sabbath by doing work that could not possibly be mitigated. It was not in order to complete the healing; it was not for an emergency; it was not to satisfy a pressing physical need. It was work, plain, and simple. Jesus violated the Sabbath in defiling it. He purposely commanded another to violate the Sabbath.

Therefore, when the following verses describe the Jewsí desire to kill Jesus, for that very reason, the Jews are doing exactly what God commanded. This is not from some ìceremonialî law or from what the Adventists sometimes call ìManís Law.î It is directly from the fourth Commandment and the curse invoked upon violation of that Commandment.

The Jews were absolutely correct, in their relationship to the Law, to demand Jesusí death.

How could that be? Why did Jesus choose to do that if the Ten Commandments are Godís everlasting Law from creation to the end of the earth?

OK, so maybe because Jesus has special standing as the Son of God, He might be immune. However, that is not enough to explain why he commanded the cripple to work. Why would Jesus command the cripple to work, when Jesus later tells us that we must believe Mosesí writings in order to believe Him? Why would Jesus, in whom all authority to judge has been vested, force someone to come under judgement?

That is like a criminal courts judge ordering an innocent person to murder someone and then trying, and convicting the person for the murder.


Think about that. Think about why that makes avoiding verses ten through eighteen, so prudent for an Adventist preacher.

More later, if you wish.


Jerry
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well my thoughts on it Colleen, are that Jesus or God can certainly send Michael on a mission to retrieve Moses' body for the purpose or resurrecting him in the heavenly courts....Look at the character of Satan...he is after all a fallen angel...don't you think he could've wanted to bully a fellow angel whom he once fellowshiped with and tried to tell him he couldn't take the body, and Michael told him "The Lord rebuke you"....I don't see any problem with that being a possibility...Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life, but He gave His disciples the ability to raise the dead in His name...and here is a righteous angel retrieving a body...why not?
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whoah, Jerry, thank you! I'll add that straw to this camel's already broken back. It all seems so OBVIOUS on this side of deception! It's all so very sad... 3 of my 5 immediate family members are rooted so deeply, they'll probably never get it. And one of them is a Bible teacher! Gives me chills...
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep. I knew you understood the scripture. I also figured that because it is so obvious, many here might think: ìYeah, so . . . ? Why is that interesting?î

Therefore, my objective was not to convince you of the interpretation. Rather, it was to give you a sense of why it struck me as so interesting.
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you to all that responded to my question about the "state of the dead." I didn't mean to ask a question, then disappear, but I ended up leaving town for a couple of days.

To be honest with you, I still have a lot of questions. If the soul is eternal and one is ushered into the presence of God at death, what then for the non-believer? Does he/she go to hell (which is a totally different subject). If so, where does the judgement fit in? What about the sotry of Lazarus? Are we to understand that he was called back from heaven to resume life on earth? Isn't that cruel on God's part? What is the significance of the resurrection (of the righteous and the wicked) if both are already experiencing their eternal destiny?

As I said, I have not made my mind up one way or another. I can see strong arguments on both sides of the fence. I guess my real question is, why does it make a difference? I heard what you all said about how comforting it is to think that our relatives who have died in Jesus are in His presence right now, but I need something a little more definitive. I will continue to study it out, but to be honest, it is not one of those issues I just HAVE to know. Some things we just have to trust God on--this seems to be one of them.

He is in control, and that is what is important.

In His Grace

Doug
Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 5:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Doug, even I have to admit there are some parts of the puzzle I dont know either and I dont think we will know until we see Jesus . What does matter is that if you know Christ, you have nothing to worry about. =)

Joel
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know how to address all those questions, either, but I don't see the dead as receiving their eternal reward until the judgment. The righteous dead do not have bodiesóPaul is clear in 1 Cor. 15 that the resurrection will give us glorified bodies. The wicked deadówell, I don't know exactly where they go, but it is to someplace that is not in the presence of God and Life. The Bible also clarifies that they, too, must be resurrected before receiving their final sentence. Exactly how all that will play out, I don't know.

I don't think the righteous dead have free access to roam heaven (as if they had bodies) and the universe. We've no Biblical evidence to suggest exactly what they are doing. It does say, though, that they go to God. He keeps them and holds them and loves them, and whatever the case, it is, according to Paul in Philippians, more to be desired than life in these mortal tents.

Colleen
Madelia (Madelia)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there an EGW quote or statement somewhere that says that meat-eating causes blindness? My husband the other night was telling my daughter this and relating it to the story of Isaac, who was blind and who was requesting meat!!

It sounded like an EGW'ism to me. I've never really read any of her books (and I don't intend to!)

So here my 8 year old and I as myopic as can be and my daughter has never had meat touch her lip.

I could hardly contain myself

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