| Author |
Message |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:21 am: |     |
Pheeki,
Your point is well taken. I would just like to clarify one point. There are things that God has created that are harmful for us to ingest. Meat, especially pork, is one of those things. This is a fact that has been proven by modern science. Remember, it was Paul who said that "all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient."
The issue I have with EGW's position on diet is that she made it an extension of the Gospel. In one of your quotes above, she said that the consumption of coffee, tea, or tobacco is "sin." Inanother quote, she said that if we consume dairy products our prayers will not be heard.
Had EGW stopped at saying these are some things that will help you enjoy life more fully, I would have no problem with her counsel in this area. But she didn't. When I used to hear her books read as a child, I used to be so thankful that I didn't grow up in her household. You may live forever, but you'd probably wish you were dead. There is NO joy evident in her writings and the lifestyle she advocates sounds like pure drudgery.
In His Grace
Doug |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:57 am: | |
While the nitrites in pork found in the form of bacon, etc. are known carcinogins...and they are foods high in cholesterol (so is shrimp) I am not aware that pork chops or pork tendrloin has been found to be unhealthful.
In fact, taken in moderation even foods high in cholesterol are not harmful. It is when we injest way past fulness, any kind of food, that the problem occurs.
Also an interesting sidenote, the Atkins diet, which consists of mostly eggs and meat(including bacon, etc.) butter, cream, has been shown to lower your cholesterol and your weight.
What studies are you referring to about meat? The mad cow crisis?
I propose that our entire diet is possibly unhealthy.
Producers are putting hormones and antibiotics in our foods (milk, eggs, meat).
E coli is found on meat but can also be found on salad bars, in watermelon, lettuce, etc.
Our vegetables are sprayed with pesticides and grown in Mexico where they use who knows what!
What about all the engineered corn that Europe won't touch...I am sure we are eating it.
What about all the fillers and preservatives in our foods that we eat everyday. What about the plastic containers they pack the food in...what about the microwave? Is that altering the food we eat? What about all the bug parts in chocolate or the rat droppings in our grains?
I would think it would take a lot of faith to eat anything these days.
I am not saying it is morally wrong/right to be vegetarian or morally wrong/right to be a meat eater. In fact the killing of animals for food is horriffic when we have so many other options. (If I had to actually do the killing I would probably never eat meat.)
It is imperative we ask the Lord to bless anything we eat. And then we are to eat it with thanksgiving. Some people cannot afford organic or the choicest cuts of meat (in fact I know some people buy the meat that has been discounted for quick sale and looks questionable...do they end up in the hospital?) The Lord knows that is all they can afford and I know he looks after the poor.
I have seen people devote all of their time and energy to food. Buying substitues for this and that, instead of curbing their appetietes. They spend hours studying which supplements to add to their diets, what to cut out, new recipes, shopping in expensive organic shops, free range meat...I think it can sometimes become a distraction to get our focus off what really matters.
However, to base salvation (or if our prayers are heard) on our diet is unacceptable.
I realize I am making the same point you have made in your last post Doug but you got me started! FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. I cannot stress it enough...we eat by faith. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 11:54 am: | |
Sure, Pheeki and Doug,
As I think you are both saying: We can go back and forth, about what food is healthy/not healthy, in what quantity, with pros and cons of each food.
Many sound scientific studies can help each person decide how to balance the risks of eating any combination of foods.
Ellen White most likely got her teachings from several contemporary innovators some of whom were doctors and/or scientists.
One can find anything she has to say about health in several places where the authors do not use the opinions and evidence to serve any aberrant salvation doctrine.
The issue here is not ìhealthy lifestyle choices.î It is the choice of authority from which one derives belief, truth, and faith. It is oneís choice of doctrines and theological interpretations. It is oneís ability to determine whether any source outside of the Bible must be ìobeyedî and ìtrustedî with oneís spiritual destiny.
The ìfather of liesî can tell many truths in the service of one lie. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 12:07 pm: | |
Pheeki,
I did not mean to suggest that vegetarianism is the answer for everyone. If I did, I would be being a hypocrite since I am not one myself. My only caution is that we realize that while we have freedom, we must also make wise choices. I know someone who left the SDA Church, and now at every opportuity, orders everything that was previously "forbidden." I am not sure this is a wise choice. As Jerry said, much of what she had to say about health has been confirmed in other places. It is the making it a salvific issue that is the problem.
I think we are all in agreement. We're just saying it in different ways.
Doug |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 1:09 pm: | |
Right. J |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 6:20 am: | |
GregB 54, here's more:
EGW: "The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin...it will stand in the sanctuary until the final atonement." Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 357.
Bible: Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him. Rom. 4.7-8
EGW: Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. ...Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 155
Bible:I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. I John 5:13
EGW: "I was shown...the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where he now stands by the ark. Early Writings, p. 42
Bible: The point of what we are saying is this; We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Heb. 8. 1,2 AND He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9.12 Both of these were written in 60AD. Jesus was already seated in the Most Holy Place! His work was finished.
Robert Sanders has put together more than 50 of these errors of hers compared to scripture. Makes it easy to test your "prophetess" as the scripture has commanded.
http://ellenwhite.org/egw54.htm
Will you take the Bible challenge offered above? Are you unafraid to set aside egw's writings for a couple of months and try reading the scriptures ONLY with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
The disciples began with what they had seen in Jesus, what they had experienced walking with Him, and from that viewpoint looked backwards from the foundation of His teachings to understand the Old Testament writings. So it is wise that we do the same. So try beginning with Mark, Romans, and Galatians. Our prayers are that you will. |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 7:31 am: | |
Lydell, I can't find the list you are working from. The address you posted is a page on spritism. There is a very comprehensive list at
www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Condradicts.htm
Bill |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
My problem with EGW is that people have made her a god. My own brother has told my mother that her writings carry equal weight with the Bible.
Let me restate that for those of you who didn't get that...EQUAL.
Isn't that making her an idol?
She said that she didn't want to be called a prophet but was content to give instruction on every aspect of her followers lives. She had a huge following and didn't mind being the guru. It doesn't matter that she said she wasn't to be called a prophet she allowed herself to be in the role of one.
Then she also took the liberty to hand out judgments on sins people were committing...look at all the letters she wrote to people about private matters between them and God.
Look at all the people that have strived to live by her counsel these last 150 years instead of living by the Spirit. Look at all the people who have fallen short of her standards and probably thought they have lost their salvation.
I tend to feel sorry for Ellen. I don't hate her when I see her picture but with all the technology advances (such as the internet) and all the research done on her writings...why anyone choses to still follow her is beyond me. I said I feel sorry for her because I think she got involved in something that got out of control and something she couldn't/didn't want to stop once it got going. The money started rolling in...the sense of power that women of that era seldom enjoyed...her words carried equal or more weight than her male counterparts...how could you give that up?
It could be in later years she tried, but by that time it was too late. I truly don't think she set out to harm so many people...I also think people made her what she was...think of the Israelites who weren't content to let God be their leader and king, they wanted a human king...what they got was Saul and bondage (someone to tax them, give them orders...)
I could almost excuse a lot of her writings too if she had put them forth as what she had discovered in her Bible study that the Holy Spirit led her to...but to say that she was shown in direct visions from God (things contrary to scripture) elevates her words to the level of scripture. And many people still feel they are scripture.
Those of you who still think of EGW as a prophet, think about this...Martin Luther was a great reformer, I believe he received revelation from God through his Bible study, but not once was he ever referred to as a prophet nor did he make claims he was. (If anyone knows if he did claim to be a prophet please correct me.) If the great Martin Luther cannot claim this, why should Ellen be able to?
It almost seems like as she got convicted of certain things in her walk with the Lord, she passed them off as direct revelation from God. (Like the Sabbath, vegetarianism...other peoples doctrinal research such as the IJ...suddenly became straight from God?!?!)
I read somewhere that it took a long time for her husband to convince her that the Sabbath was the correct day of worship...once she was convinced it became the Seal of God in her writings.
I know I am stepping on some toes here for those of you lurking (not posting) on this website.
Please ask yourself just one question...Are you looking to man for approval and salvation or are you looking to God? You don't need an earthly mediator between you and God, the Bible says we can now approach the throne of God with confidence! Our mediator is Christ and Christ only. You don't need man made regulations to be holy...only Christ's. It says in the Bible that man made regulations like..."Do not touch, do not taste!" are destined to perish...
Ask the Lord to show you what he wants you to know with out denominational (man made) blinders on. Ask him to open your eyes...what have you got to lose? Do you think if you ask, God will lead you into destruction? Have some faith in God and his promises, you won't be disappointed. |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Pheeki,
You stated in one line:
"E coli is found on meat but can also be found on salad bars, in watermelon, lettuce, etc."
Oh boy, now you've really hit home here. I don't know how many read the archives but in there I told of an elderly lady who came to my door wanting to know about the book of Isaiah. She lived down the hall from me.
Well, she died two years ago, from eating Cantelope.
That's how tainted "everything" we eat is. Anymore, I don't believe there is anything that is safe and yes, that's why we should always thank God to Bless our food.
What goes into us is all unclean, but that does not make up our hearts. For it is God Himself who has given us NEW HEARTS. And He judges us by our hearts.
The health reform that EGW started, began with a book called "A Solemn Appeal to Mothers," it was about ........masterbation or self abuse as she calls it. Others of her time called it "self pollution" and they all believed that it brought out the "animal instincts" in us.
Crazy making stuff. And I've seen people make an idol of their diet, same as with a day of the week. Worthless idols.
Peace,
Denise Gilmore |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 9:07 am: | |
Pheeki I can validate what your brother said:
Quote:My problem with EGW is that people have made her a god. My own brother has told my mother that her writings carry equal weight with the Bible.
Let me restate that for those of you who didn't get that...EQUAL.
I had a Pastor tell me that her writings carry the same weight as any biblical prophet (i.e. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, etc.). This was not too long before I left the church. Prior to that, I knew that there were those who "idolized" her, but I thought the institutional position was that she was the lessor light. I think there has been a subtle, almost imperceptible change in the position the church has take over the years. The church seems to have become much more blatant (read, "less deceptive)in its stand on EGW in recent years.
In His Grace
Doug |
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Pheeki, to be fair indeed, Ellen claimed that her work encompassed "much more than the word 'prophet' signifies". If you use the Scriptural hierarchy of gifts written of by Paul, the only available gift above prophet is apostle. Apostle is the only position we can find in Scripture that encompasses "much more than the word 'prophet' signifies" Here is her direct(?) quote:
"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies." Selected Messages, Book 1, page 32, paragraph 4.
I guess there must be a gift somewhere between prophet and apostle that Paul failed to mention *wink*.
OT prophets didn't evade the certainty of their appointed position. Neither did John the Baptist, Jesus, or the Apostles. It would be anathema for them to do so! Quite the contrary, they BOLDLY proclaimed their God-given authority in order to force those their prophecy was intended for to choose for or against God. There can be no doubt - using any generally accepted definition - that Ellen was a prophet. The only question that remains for anyone to answer is "true prophet or false prophet?"
David Koresh was a prophet, a false one. Elijah was a prophet, a true one. Ellen White was a prophet. The real question at hand is which kind was she? |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
Oh, really? ìbetween prophet and apostle,î you say?
Quote:Upward Look, page 168, paragraph 3
I was directed by a messenger from heaven not to take the burden of picking up the sayings and doubts that Satan is putting into minds. "Stand as the messenger of God anywhere, in any place," I was bidden, "and bear the testimony I shall give you. If the Holy Spirit is not received, but rejected, all your words will be as idle tales. Be free. Bear the testimonies that the Lord Jesus has for you to bear in reproof, in rebuke, in the work of encouraging and lifting up the soul; 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.'"
That sounds a little above apostolic to near angelic, donít you think?
Now, ìtrue prophet or false prophet,î ìwhich one?î you ask.
Hmmmmmmmmm. (strokes chin, taps forehead, thinkety, thinkety, think)
Iíll need to get back to you on that. ;) |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 2:37 pm: | |
I've really enjoyed the above posts! Thanks for the great quotes, Lydell, and thanks for the appeal, Pheeki.
Distance continues to make things increasingly clear, doesn't it?!
Praise God that He reveals himself to us!
Colleen |
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
As I recall, the quote Jerry provided is actually the pitiful defense EGW used in order to not provide answers to questions that she herself invited with a promise that God would help her answer them.
"Give a prophet enough rope and eventually he will hang himself".
Jerry, I guess Paul forgot "messenger". Thanks for clearing that up!... (tongue beginning to cramp from being planted in cheek so firmly for so long).
I have also come to pity this poor woman. I believe she truly believed in what she was doing but ultimately failed to test her own experience by the very Scriptures she purported to defend so vigorously. I expect to see her in heaven with a big look of surprise on her face. I'm sure I'm in for a few surprises myself! I'm in no position to judge her, and I pray that God has mercy on us all.
Colleen, I totally agree, the farther away I get from dependence on anything/anyone but Scripture and Jesus Christ, the more foolish I feel for having swallowed this horse hockey for so long, and the more thankful I am go God for keeping His promise to reveal truth to those who earnestly seek it! |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 5:43 pm: | |
One thing I must say that all of you did come away with from SDA is OT knowledge and Biblical knowledge when it comes to things that they want to be sure is understood such as prophets.
Pheeki you certainly have used what you learned even in the midst of deception to be able now to understand more fully all aspects from the Bible OT to NT and you have been so sharp pulling the truth out of it all. PRAISE GOD for the way He moves and works in our lives and again we can all say "All things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose".
I too feel like EGW got caught up in the glory of it all and I think she truly believed what she was in fact saying. If you tell yourself enough that what you are doing is right it will be right, at least in your own mind. But if anyone has an objection or is in discord with what you are saying it is best to check it out so that both of you will come to the truth that only God wants and like has been said not what man wants.
Thanks to all of you for your ensight into the things that go on so that those of us who are only looking in the window can understand a little better, Carol |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
You know, I actually praise God at this point that I grew up Adventist. You're right, Carol; we did gain a fairly broad OT education, and God in his mercy redeemed it so that what I learned then now makes sense. I didn't have to relearn the OT; I had to learn to understand it as I learned the NT.
As misguided and deceptive as I believe Adventism to be, I believe that I would not have the clear understanding of the new covenant that I now have if I hadn't grown up married to the law. I so praise God for revealing the awesomeness of the old covenant and its fulfillment in the new. Christians who haven't had to consciously struggle with the law and to understand Jesus's perfect fulfillment of it do not quite understand the amazing freedom of passing from the curse to the promise.
I believe that many of you who have never been Adventist but have had to deal with Adventist loved ones also know something of the amazement and freedom we formers experience because you've had to study these things also.
I see the phenomenon in my life as being analogous to that of people who suffer warping emotional or physical abuse as children but find healing and freedom in Christ. While they would never, even in retrospect, choose to go through that abuse again, they can praise God for the strength and depth and healing and ministry which he gives them as he redeems their pasts.
Praise God that he wastes nothing and redeems everything we submit to him!
Colleen |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 7:31 pm: | |
This message is for those people who read the forum but do not agree. I have said it before this forum was created for people who have left the church for reasons of not believing the doctrin or Ellen White. Am I correct on this or am I wrong. People come here to learn and vent about the lies and ruined lives that have come from the false teachings of the church. I hope I am not sounding crazy but I keep getting mockings of what is written on this forum. If you do not agree and this is not for you why do you read it. I have had enough SDA crap shoved down my throat for years. I do not want to hear any defense for Ellen or the church. Welll thanks for letting me vent. |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 9:29 pm: | |
Ellen White is the apple of the Adventist eye. Seventh-day Adventists are often more offended by comments revealing disbelief in her esoteric writings than any other tenet they adhere to. Truly, she looms bigger than life in devout SDA circles. They used to call her the "Adventist advantage," but she has more often proven to be the ADVENTIST DISADVANTAGE. With the dawn of high-speed Internet access, information is a tool that can quickly and easily decipher fact from outright lies. Consequently, with this high tech yardstick for information, Adventism is not growing in the English-speaking world today.
Adventism does not thrive well in the online environment of chat rooms, instant messaging, and message boards. Official Adventism has repeatedly shut down various websites and message boards because they were unable to control the content. Inquiring cyber-Adventists would often question and challenge the official stance. Controversy is still rampant on many unofficial SDA websites. In fact, there is often "great controversy" within the Adventist online forums. They call each other horrible names; furthermore, they appear to be their own worst enemies. Interestingly and fortunately, when a seeker for truth sees such unsavory behavior on a religious website, they usually leave abruptly and never return. The Internet provides seekers the opportunity to observe Adventists first hand on a very personal basis. Easy access to information is indeed a severe hindrance for hierarchical, religious systems.
Sylvia and I have often wondered how many diabetics and others that may have died from Ellen White's two-meal-a-day regimen. Sadly, I have observed the consequences of her "health message" in many lives. These people did not radiant joy and good health, but rather they reflected pure fanaticism and perfectionism. Entire SDA communities (i.e., Berrien Springs, Michigan) used to reflect the high ratio of poor health among their elderly, from osteoporosis especially, due to a lack of calcium in their diets. Fortunately, now most dairy substitutes are calcium enriched--like soymilk.
Praising God for hearts unfettered by legalism,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 6:12 pm: | |
I'm Back! Hi,it's me Susan_2. I had to take a break for awhile. It was getting too intense for my emotional state as it seemed to me at the time that many of you were all going through the same troubles with your SDA loved ones that I was going through and I needed to get off the forum for awhile and focus on my needs. Now I feel ready to rejoin. I would like to agree with Colleen. When I was young I truly resented having been raised SDA because as a SDA youth I did not get to have much fun. I went to public school, so all the sports events, dances, fieldtrips, etc. I didn't get to partisipate in. Now though many years later I sometimes am actually thankful for my SDA upbringing. And, mainly for one reason. And that reason is that I don't think I'd be very suseptible to falling for any wim that comes along or some person that says, "Follow me. I have a truth for you". Because of EGW I completely check an organization or group out first before I let myself get too taken in with it. I, too, was taught that we should never let ourselves say we are saved. I think this is probably the most sad thing about the SDA denomination. Because of the organizations persistance in this the SDA people as a whole are living in a state of high emotioinal anxiety and this teaching coupled with the one on perfection, well, that will leave a person a real basket case. And, truly I am not just spouting off, I know personally numerous SDA's who are in a state of emotional distress because of those two teachings. Thank-you, Jesus for the Bible, the Holy Word so we can know and learn from just one book made from many books and that we don't need the "red books". |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 11:42 pm: | |
Susan, welcome back! I continue to pray for you and your family.
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 4:55 pm: | |
http://www.truthorfables.com/Testimony_by_Paul_Barker.htm
check out this testimony. Who can say the Bible doesn't warn about EGW? |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
I'll tell you what it says since you don't want to read it. ;)
This guy must be old because he remembers when he was a kid and EGW said the people shouldn't marry in the present world situation and he says she even said if they were married they shouldn't have sex at all. (I never remember hearing that one) Well, he says his preacher would get up every week and confess to the congregation that he had been "weak" and would try harder.
That is really weird. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 8:44 pm: | |
I actually did read it...and remembered reading it before. Unfortunately, I think the EGW supporter will find a way to justify or dismiss any negative claim no matter how documented. Believe me, I've tried to show him.... |
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 8:54 pm: | |
Yes, I read his story, too. I had an extremely devout SDA aunt who if she was still alive would probably be around 120 years old and she truly believed that babies who are born with a cleft plate (or to use her term: a hair lip) was born with that problem because some ancestor back 3 or 4 generations had contacted syphillys. I asked other relatives how come this prticular aunt believed this way and I was told because Sister White said so and it was implied that if Sister White said so then it was so. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
There really are deep, inherent reasons why there is so much dysfunction and abuse hidden in so many Adventist families.
Have you ever noticed that the commitment and intimacy implicit in the fact of the church being the bride of Christ is the part of human life Satan most universally tries to attack? The metaphor of the church being the Bride of Christ is not just figurative language. It's real--in ways we can't understand in our physical world. But that's an eternal reality, and marriage was a central part of creation, I believe, to represent that over-arching reality of Jesus' eternal intimacy with his church. (I believe that Paul's admonitions in Ephesians 5 for husbands and wives are part of this shadow of Christ and the church.)
What better place for evil to attack our understanding of God's relentless care of us and Jesus' eternal redemptive sacrifice and love and transformation of us than to completely twist God's gift of human intimacy?
I guess it's no accident that when we accept Jesus and are born again, he heals and awakens our emotions and also heals and blesses our relationships!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
Colleen,
I have thought that too--that the church being the bride of Christ is real in some supernatural-holy way. I thought I was weird or something. I tried to explain it to my husband and he didn't get it. I didn't really know how to explain it in the first place, it's something I don't know how to put in words, some kind of intimacy that is not of this natural world, but wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 555
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 6:57 pm: | |
I just read this one today. "Christ was a Protestant... Luther and his followers did not invent the reformed religion. They simply accepted it as presented by Christ and the apostles." It was either from the Review and Harold Magazine, June 01, 1886 edition or the G.C. page 78, I'm not sure which one but now we know that Jesus was a Protestant. So, is Jesus in his place at the right hand of God the Father since Hid assencion still a Protestant now in heaven? |
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