| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2003 |
This Saturday, the Lincoln Journal Star ran an article about what Christians think about Santa Clause. Unfortunately, one of the primary sources they interviewed was Jerry Connell, family ministries pastor at the College Seventh-day Adventist Church. Although there were other pastors interviewed, most of them said something fairly innocuous about how Jesus is the real meaning of Christmas, but if families have fun playing Santa Claus there's nothing really wrong with it as long as the focus remains Jesus Christ. Not content to give a well balanced answer like his collegues, Jerry Connell stated that many SDA families don't do the Santa thing (so far so good), but then went on to inexplicably explain that most people's view of Santa Claus is like their view of "Cheap Grace". The definition of "Cheap Grace" that was given was the idea that you are saved by belief alone. Connell went on to explain that the Christian life also involves sacrifice and persecution (true), but this thought was largely lost by his earlier statement that seemed to discount faith as *the* means of salvation. His use of the word salvation in his negative analogy between Santa and cheap grace seems to suggest that salvation is not a free gift given to us by a beneficient being through no merit of our own, but is in fact something that must be earned, the exact opposite of a gift. I found this to be a really troubling statement. I also have to add that I really hate the term "Cheap Grace". I think there are two perspectives from which grace can be viewed and neither one allows grace to be "cheap" in any sense. 1) When viewed from the human perspective, grace is not cheap, it's absolutely free! It's a free gift bestowed upon us through no merit of our own whatsoever. In fact, it's bestowed upon us DESPITE our obvious unworthiness. Grace is not a low cost item that can be bought for a small amount. You can't buy it for any amount. It's absolutely FREE!!! You'll NEVER be worthy of it. Period. What part of "Free Gift" do SDAs not understand? 2) Viewed from God's perspective, Grace is infinately costly, rare and precious beyond all measure. From God's perspective, grace is beyond priceless becasue it cost everything. The very God of the universe came in human flesh, lived among the creatures that had rejected spurned Him repeatedly, and then died a horrible death in their place. God the Son laid aside the perogatives and the priviledges of the Godhead that he might become a servant even unto death. Jesus will forever carry the marks of His supreme sacrifice and will forever possess a glorified human body as a reminder of the ultimate price that was paid in order that grace might be bestowed upon the unworthy. Only He could pay such a price and I doubt that we will ever be able to fully grasp all the infinite beauty, depth, and value of the price that was paid and the gift that was given. There is nothing cheap about grace in any sense. Although Connell seems to be suggesting that that unlike presents from Sanat Clause, salvation must be earned, even this analogy is a poor illustration of His point. According to lore, Santa gives out presents according to who's naughty and who's nice. If God bestowed salvation in the same way we might as well all give up. What's more, we might as well cancel Christmas becasue the advent would lose all meaning and value. I'm SO thankful to Jesus for what He did in coming to this world and for freeing me from the twisted view that blinded me to the full implication of the gift He gave. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1859 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I absolutely agree with you re: your thoughts on grace. You're right to be so uncomfortable with Connell's responses. Of course he was saying salvation is not by belief in Christ alone! That point is the one upon which SDAs always stumble. They say that salvation is by grace through faith alone, yet they can't say they would be saved if they quite keeping Sabbath. They might concede that non-SDAs would be saved without Sabbath (because they hadn't yet understood it properly), but they won't say they can "stay" saved without it. They can't explain, either, why they have to keep it in order to stay saved. Yes, grace is infintely costly--and absolutely free to us! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2000 |
It's amazing to me how SDA's constantly find new ways to put down Christmas and Easter. Santa is cheap grace? The real Santa (St.Nicholas) gave out free gifts to children expecting nothing in return, right in line with Christs' example. Here's another amazing turn of events---Clifford Goldstein, editor of the SS lesson quarterlies, has a book coming out called 'Grafitti in the Holy of Holies'. The book is a reply to the charges in Dale's book 'Cultic Doctrine'. Guess what? Clifford says that the version of the sanctuary that Dale says SDA's believe isn't the truth! The way Cliff tells it, the sanctuary message that the pioneers believed was nothing like Dales' version. He goes on to reassure his readers that Cliff has rediscovered the real version, that it is Biblical and trustworthy. Cliff really caught some flak over on A-Today over the chapter that was posted on the Review claiming these things. Quite a few current and former SDA's on the forum had been taught by folks who in turn were taught by one of the pioneers. It's going to be really interesting to see how the church reacts to the whole book! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2003 |
Here are the excerpts from the story that contain information from the SDA minister. I've also included the link at the bottom so you can read the whole story if you wish. **************************************************************************************************** Jerry Connell, family ministries pastor at College View Seventh-day Adventist Church, said he knows of many Adventist parents who do not encourage their children to believe in Santa, because they want to make Christmas a time for giving rather than receiving. Several ministers said they like to focus on the real St. Nicholas, a bishop who lived in Asia Minor in the third century, when Christians were still being persecuted. One story is that St. Nicholas was imprisoned and tortured because he refused to renounce his faith, College View's Connell said. "It's hard to imagine Santa Claus in prison, but that's what happened to the real St. Nicholas," he said. Unlike the picture of Santa as all fun and frivolity, the real St. Nicholas was a martyr who suffered for his faith, Connell said. The popular image of Santa giving presents to everyone is something like the concept of "cheap grace," which holds that all you have to do to be saved is to believe, he said. The life of the real St. Nicholas, by contrast, demonstrates that Christians may be required to make sacrifices because of their faith. "Santa would say, `You've turned me into someone who can give you anything you ask for, without it costing anything,'" he said. By contrast, "Jesus said that loyalty to him is costly in terms of obedience and love." **************************************************************************************************** The biggest problem I see with the quotes above is that they contain some elements of truth in regards to the Christian life. But those truths have been misapplied in way that distorts the Gospel of Grace in a subtle yet significant way. Here's the whole article if you want to see what other ministers said: http://www.journalstar.com/features.php?story_id=106063 Chris | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi Loneviking. I have read that chapter on line from Clifford Goldstein's book also and was appalled at such utter nonsense. Trying to pass off a softer more gospel oriented version of the sanctuary message as the real thing in no way eradicates the truth of the matter. Anyone who is new to Adventism might believe him -- until they read the literature and see that what SDA's have been teaching for decades is indeed what Dale's book says it is. I know I should'nt but I get so angry when I read anything that tells an outright fable in order to protect the 'spirit of Adventism'. Those who write it lose all credibility. Anyway, I'm wondering where I can find the responses you mentioned on AToday? Can I find them online? I know that my dear Adventist father has ordered Clifford's new book for Christmas and I would like to have more feedback than just my own opinion to give him. | ||
| Lee Registered user Username: Lee Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2002 |
The only instance when Grace is cheap, is when we cheapen it by not accepting the offer of His Grace. Anotherway we diminish the value of Grace is when we narrow the scope and power of Gods Grace in our lives. It makes me sick to hear the freedom of the Gospel referred to as Cheap Grace. Over and over I have heard SDA's bash churches that bring grace front and center as fluff religions. If the grace of God is fluff may I please be buried in that fluff!! | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2000 |
Spokenfor--- Go to this address: www.atomorrow.com Click on the 'last week' selection at the bottom of the screen. Go to the thread 'Goldstein and 1888'. The A-Tomorrow forum is made up of a bunch of us refugees from the old A-Today forum which closed. See what you think! Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1863 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lee, I love your last sentence! "If the grace of God is fluff, may I please be buried in that fluff!" I read the online chapter of Goldstein's new book also, and I'm struck by the condescending and argumentative tone of it. I agree, Spokenfor, that he won't be taken seriously by any except those who really don't want to know the truth or by those who really don't know Adventism or the contents of Dale's books. His assertion that he is going to begin by proving the IJ from the Bible, thus eliminating the need to defend EGW's prophetic status, is really a clever game to confuse readers. He (rather pompously, I thought!) said he would do the opposite of what Ratzlaff does by dealing first with the IJ instead of EGW. He, therefore, will do the usual proof-texting and interpret the passages from a perspective of trying to find the IJ in them instead of studying them inductively to find what they might really say, and he will "prove" the IJ is Biblical. Then, using Dale's assertion that the falseness of the IJ alone indicts EGW as a false prophet, Goldstein will use his "proof" to conclude that EGW IS a true prophet. End of argument. Constructing his argument this way will give him the "out" he needs to avoid dealing with the compelling evidence Dale gives in his book that reveals the deception of EGW's early visions and endorsements that led to the SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. Further, Goldstein completely ignores Dale's companion study of the new covenant (in his book Sabbath in Christ) which totally exposes the IJ as a fraud. I'm really thankful that truth can stand on its own merits, and no amount of arguing or clever eloquence can conceal or change the truth in the Bible. Anyone who wants to know what is real can read the Bible for himself and, with the help of the Holy Spirit, discover what God has said to us! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 430 Registered: 3-2001 |
I haven't read Goldstein's new book, but it sounds a lot like his old book, "1844 made Simple." In it, he says that he almost left the church because of all the controversy surrounding the IJ. He decided to set out to prove or disprove it by the Bible alone. I'm not sure how his new book is any different than the old. Maybe I'll check it out, but probably not. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1865 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Doug; he says his new book is a reworking of his old one. If you read the old one, you probably have the general drift of the new one. This one is perhaps more specifically addressed to "answering" Ratzlaff's book. (In the first chapter, at least, he continually calls Ratzlaff "Brother Ratzlaff" or "Brother Dale". Other names to which he refers are simply first and last with no "Brother" attached...) Colleen | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi Loneviking - I checked out the Atomorrow forum regarding the Godlstien book. A lot of interesting dialoguing going on there. One thing that caught my attention was where Cliff stated that no one asked him to write about this - he was just so interested in it and he just HAS to do it (I am paraphrasing) but anyway a little over a year ago a close friend of mine who has previously written several books for the denomination was asked by one of Adventism's senior theologians to write a book in response to Dale's book. He declined as his integrety wouldn't allow him to honestly dispute many of the arguments. It made me wonder about Clifford's denial that he'd been asked/paid to write on this subject AGAIN. Thanks for the link - I'm sure I will lurk around there occasionally to see what's going on ;-) | ||
| Rochelleradclif Registered user Username: Rochelleradclif Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi Lonevikinv, Spokenfor, and anyone else who is troubled by Clifford Goldstein's position on the sancturary. I have not read Adventist publications regularly since I left the system over 15 years ago, but in the year 2000 my Dad started sending me Adventist Review magazines for some reason. While reading the August 24 2000 edition (it so troubled me that I kept the article and prayed about it) I came across an article by Clifford Goldstein called Verticle Truths. In it, Mr. Goldstein talks about how he wouldn't be a Seventh Day Adventist if he could follow his heart. He says that because of his Jewishness he would be a Messianic Jew instead because culturally it would be more comfortable for him. My understanding is that if a Jewish person makes a decision to accept Jesus; they are Messianic Jews even if they don't join a messianic Jewish congregation. This man thinks that he has to turn his back on everything Jewish in order to receive Jesus and be a member of the Seventh Day Adventist religion. I don't believe the scriptures teach that Jewish believers have to totally reject their Jewish roots as long as they receive them through an attitude of liberty in Christ. Nor do I believe that scriptures teach the investigative judgment. The scripture teaches salvation through the blood of Jesus alone and that we earn a reward through our faithfulness and obedience. The only thing that teaches investigative judgment are visions from Ellen White, but in his article, Mr. Goldstein presents his views as "verticle truths." I think the gentleman is trying so hard to dismiss the leadings of his heart as Jewish sentimentalism that he is unable to see that he is substituting Adventist sentimentalism instead. I believe we should pray for this man to trust God to speak to his emotions as well as his intellect. None of us has a relationship with Jesus that is all intellectual and when people think they can they are going to be deceived and they are going to deceive other people even if they don't mean to. Jesus tells us to love Him with all our heart, mind, and strength. Mr. Goldstein is afraid to love Jesus with his emotions. Arguing theological points with him is not going to work. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2000 |
It is my understanding that Clifford Goldstein's wife (maybe before she was his wife) brought him into Adventism. So, he may not have a totally objective purpose for being an Adventist. He claims that all his wife was taught about the IJ was incorrect. In fact, he admits that the tradititonal SDA view is bad news. Thus, he has found the "right" interpretation even though it contradicts many generations of loyal SDA apologist's teachings. To his credit, Cliff finds the traditional IJ alibi unbiblical--just like Cottrell and Ford did. Without forsaking Ellen White, the investigative judgment heresy cannot be upgraded or modified. However, Clifford Goldstein is trying to rewrite SDA history and doctrine. Adventists are desperately trying once again to come across as Evangelicals (like they suceeded in the late 1950s). They have even republished QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINE (with added commentary) recently. QOD says, "the Holy Scriptures...contain an ALL-SUFFICIENT revelation of His will to men, and are the only UNERRING rule of faith and practice" (page 11). The White Estate certainly will not welcome such a stance. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 390 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yep, good to see the "never-changing, eternal, they-have-it-and-you-don't" TRUTH is still there. . . err . . . as currently stated . . . until the next unappologetic rewrite - uh - clarification - I mean - return to the "original" (at least as far as the vocabulary is redefined at that time.) phhhhffuh!! Look! Just TAKE THEIR WORD FOR IT AND STOP ASKING SO MANY QUESTIONS, K?  p.s. Just love reading C.G., It's like S. Dali in prose . . . looks so slick and very realistic that you might not notice that it is very distorted. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jerry, what a GREAT comparison--C. Goldstein with Salvador Dali!! It's perfect--his writing is surrealistic and glib, and it's almost impossible to see where it's wrong because his references to scripture sound reliable and sensible. The problem is that many of his textual references are out of context, and his intepretations in some cases go directly against what the Bible says. Unless the reader takes the time to look up the texts and read the context concurrently with reading Goldstein, his twistedness is not easy to define. Well, I've got to go and read the next Goldstein chapter--no school tomorrow (whoo-hoo!), so I get to read tonight! Colleen |
