| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, I had my conversation with B tonight and it went somewhat as planned, and yet never as you kindof hope deep down inside that it will. In the way of an update, he did mention that he is almost done reading ìCultic Doctrineî, but is more convinced than ever that SDAs alone are Godís only church trying to understand the Bible and sees no problems with the sanctuary doctrine/IJ, etc. at all. Oh well, I tried. The second ìnuggetî he passed on was that Leviticus 23, when it was talking about the sabbath was not talking about it as a feast, just all the others. Donít ask me how he gets there, I donít know. The words of verse 2 says these are the feasts, verse 3 talks about the 7th day sabbath, and then verse 4 reiterates these are the feasts, so somehow he has decided he wasnít really including verse 3 in that list... The third nugget was that EGWís ìauthorityî was no different than my pastorís ìauthorityî in my church. When I pointed out he didnít get his messages by angel visits and visions, he just reiterated that the authority EGW has within the SDA church is no different than the authority my pastor has in mine. I thought that was a stretch of unusual proportion. The fourth nugget was that his pastorís wife works at a methodist church, and someone there apparently does refer to others as ìnon-methodistî. Rare as it may be, apparently that makes his use of the term non-sda ok. I donít know why that was so important to pass along.... The final bomb that he dropped on me was that he had bought me a ring. Apparently he bought it 3 years ago during more innocent/ignorant times, but he decided to tell me that tonight when I told him I wasnít ready to give up on the idea that there might be an ìequally yokedî partner out there for me. It threw me for a few minutes because my instincts didnít want to hurt his feelings, but i had to remember that if heís had the ring for 3 years, thereís been a lot more water passed under the bridge than what I said tonight. B claims his reasons for wanting to stay together are faith based (he still believes God can resolve our differences...itís a rather unique guilt method to say I donít have enough faith in God to resolve our problems...), but I told him that there is just no way the Holy Spirit is leading him in his bible study (which is further into the SDA doctrines than ever) and leading me away from them. One of us is being mislead and i can only speak from what I know. If he truly believes the Holy Spirit is leading him, I donít know how to tell him heís wrong ... and I know that is exactly what he thinks when I say the Holy Spirit is leading me ... but God doesnít teach conflicting truths. My mentors are strong believers that B needs to live the choices heís made and I am going to let him do that. I know he doesnít want to give up his daily visits to our son, and I really canít blame him there. But I can hope that the added solitude time will give the Holy Spirit time to work on his heart, if heís really open to hearing anything contrary to Adventism at all. I guess Bryant still needs prayer, I just donít know what to pray for anymore. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 431 Registered: 3-2001 |
What I am about to say will probably sound strange to anyone who has not been immersed in the Adventist culture. The rest of you I am sure can relate. Some of you may recall that I have spoken of a friend who left the Adventist Church with me about two years ago. In fact, she even posted on here once or twice (she's not nearly as addicted to the computer as I am). Her family was having significant difficulties with her decision. Anyway, we have decided to get married. We announced our engagement this weekend. To put it mildly, "all hell has broken loose." No one in her family of historic Adventists has uttered a single word of congratulations. Instead, they have two primary concerns. Our having left the church and the fact that I am divorced. Believe it or not, the easiest obstacle to overcome is my divorce. Their primary concern was that I would cause my intended to be an adultress for the rest of her life. I explained to them that my divorce was biblical (an unbelieving spouse who no longer wanted to be in the marriage) and that my ex has now remarried. I couldn't help but throw in the fact that we serve a forgiving God and that even if I was at fault, divorce is not the unpardonable sin. I think they ignored the latter, but were satisfied by the first part of the explanation. The biggest (and probably more insurmountable) obstacle is the fact that we left the church. They believe that had I not been in the picture, my fiance would not have left the church (only in my dreams would I have that kind of power--this is a woman who definitely thinks for herself). Her mother told us that "we know the truth" and that we should return. She said "God would forgive us for our mistake" (in leaving the church). When my fiance called to tell her that we wanted to speak to them, she said she and her husband had "just" finished praying and that she took my fiance's call as confirmation that the marriage would be an answer to her prayers (for us to return). She believes that somehow (don't ask me how) God will use this as a vehicle to bring us back to the church. Maybe they mistakenly believe it will provide greater access to me and that will result in a change of heart for their daughter. They are absolutely heartbroken over her decision to leave the church and believe that it will send them to an early grave. She (her mother) also "scolded" me for taking my teenage son out of the church. When I initially left, I allowed my daughter and my son to continue attending the SDA Church. Change can be difficult for teenagers. After my daughter graduated from HS, I decided that it was hypocritical for me to leave my son in that environment. She said I "had no right" to make such a decision. Her husband said that unless we returned to the "true church," he would not attend the wedding. Other family members have expressed similar concerns (to a lesser degree). The church issue has become an all consuming issue for what is to be a joyous occasion. I am having difficulty seeing the connection. Since we have both left the SDA church, this is not an issue of being "unequally yoked." Instead, it is typical Adventist manipulation/control techniques. It really has its roots in selfishness. Its all about them (the church) and what they can gain out of any situation. Throughout the whole conversation, they kept referring to us as "Sunday Worshipers." I thought this was ironic. Maybe I realized this before, but it became clear to me again the Adventist mindset. Since they worship the Sabbath, they falsely assume that people who go to church on Sunday are worshipping a day also. They have no concept for worshipping a risen saviour--without regard to a day. I could very easily worship God on Saturday/Sabbath, but they could never do that on Sunday (unless they were in the company of other Adventists). The crazy thing about this is that we are not spring chickens. We are u{well} into adulthood. However, their desperation and need for control was so evident. I think the thing that angers me most is that in the two plus years since I left, not once has anyone asked me what I belive, or what it is that I saw that caused me to leave. One family member said that "if the church you are attending, has 'it' right, why are they worshipping on Sunday. If they're wrong about that, what else are they wrong about?" I've tried to engage them in discussion about the Gospel, but there is not interest. The thing that makes me most sad is that her parents are older and do not have a lot of formal education. They are merely parroting the things they have been spoonfed from years in the Adventist Church. They are as sincere as can be, but they have no peace or assurance. All Adventists are not as extreme as this, but I think most carry the same attitudes to greater or lesser degrees. Anyway, I didn't really want a response. I just needed to vent to some people who I knew understood. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2002 |
Bro Doug, You have vented and that is probably the only satisfaction you will receive in this. I went through a similar circumstance 20 (and change) years ago. My family still looks at me like I have "little horn" growing out of my forhead. But I know I am in His grace, and that is enough for me. After these years, I have learned that we will never fully understnd the mind of those we have left, and we probably will have little effect over them, but we can pray that they find His peace and His joy. Congratulations on finding a good Sister in Jesus as your spouse. It will make the remainder of your life most blessed. Some of us have not been so blessed. The Spector of Adventism can cast a damaging pall over a marriage that is most hard to endure. But the admonition remains "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church." Congratulations again! In His Service Thomas | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, I have SO "been there"! While Richard and I didn't leave SDA-ism until the mid-late 90's, I've been quite certain that his parents still see me (the second wife and also a product of divorce) as the probable original cause of Richard's apostacy. And, similar to your observations about your fiancee, no one who really knows Richard would ever suppose he would let another do the thinking for him! I cannot offer you any hope that your family's attitudes will necessarily change. We have had to learn to let our family go to Jsus and to let Him teach us to love them for him, even if that involves some emotional distance in order to prevent continual go-nowhere discussions/arguments. This readjustment of relationships has been painful and even angering, at times, but God is faithful, and he will fill those places in your hearts where "Parental Love" is stamped and give you deep affirmation and nurturing that you have not experienced before. I have watched Richard grow and flourish in his heavenly Father's love. I thank God for his faithfulness to be a Father to the "fatherless", even if being fatherless means that one's earthly father is unable to understand and support one through his or her life's hurdles. Congratulations, Doug! In spite of the current family crisis, God will bless your marriage. How wonderful that she not only is a believer, but she also understands your Adventist background! That is such a significant shared experience. Thomas, I just want to thank you for you openness, and thank you for always pointing us back to Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2001 |
Congratulations Doug! That is wonderful news! As far as the family goes, you can't control them and they can't control you and it's best in my own situation to just be cordial. Jesus promised that whoever leaves family for His sake will be blessed a hundred fold in this life. He is faithful and He uses His blessing on your life as a witness. I know it doesn't make it easier right now but if you are like me you just get to a point where you feel sorry for them because they are so blind. I hope you two are very happy! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2003 |
Congratulations on your engagement, Doug! I'm very sorry that some of the excitement is tempered by family difficulties. For what it's worth, I can really identify with you. My in-laws completely blame me for my wife and kids leaving Adventism. Even though both my wife and I come from Adventist backgrounds and Adventist schools, my in-laws believe that since my family life was poor it caused me to be less rooted in Adventism. They have stated that while I might not know any better, my wife certainly does because she was raised right. They have told her that she is only going along with this because I have forced her. This enrages my wife because even when she explains that what they are saying is completely innacurate, they continue to insist that it is accurate, thus suggesting that my wife is incapable of thinking for herself. So I'm evil and she's brainwashed. It seems to be the only way they are able to process the idea that someone might choose to leave Adventism. Chris | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 441 Registered: 3-2001 |
I need some help. This evening, an Adventist member of my fiance's family approached her and expressed concerns to her about my divorce. He asked her for the reason for my divorce, then told her that in his opinion, it did not meet the biblical qualifications. He pointed her to Mark 10, which says:
I should state up front that my fiance has never been married. The conversation with the family member has raised some questions in her mind that she thought she had already resolved. I am asking as many of you as feel led (and who have the time) to provide your interpretation of divorce and remarriage in the light of the New Covenant. I don't want to unduly sway her opinion one way or another, but I would like for her to have the benefit of the counsel of some grace filled Christians. She intends to seek counsel from our Pastor (I am not sure how he will respond), but it would be nice if she also has a chance to explore the diversity of opinions surrounding this controversial topic before she comes to any conclusions. Thanks in advance. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 90 Registered: 4-2002 |
Brother Doug, First of all, what does it matter what the "concerns" of an Adventist member of a family are? Did you and your wife enter into your marriage with a clear concience? Did you stand before God at His alter as two people pledging your love for each other in His presence, asking His blessing, and protectiion on your union? Then allow Him to bless and protect it, as you have requested. Thee is no doubt that God hates divorce. It is not in His plans for us. And, in a perfect world it would never be a part of His plan. It is a sin against Him and against ourselves. Unfortunately, sometimes it happens even to be best and dearest of us. Even to those who try to follow the closest to HIm. BUT, it is certainly not the unpardonable sin. God forgives us of ALL sin and cleanses us of ALL unrightousness. Even something that causes "concern" to Adventist members of our families. Having been this route, myself I had to ask some hard questions of myself. Ask yourself, If you WERE to discover that his "concerns" were legitimate, what are you going to do? Seperate, becuase of your sin? Would this demonstrate God's grace and forgiveness? Do you and your wife love each other and under God's blessings devote yourselves to each other? Do you really believe that He fotgives all your sins, past, present, and future? When you married, did you deliberately harbor hidden sin and deception that would have effected your relationship? Then why add a burden to God's grace that He died to remove? You are right, my brother. You are "In His Grace". Really think about what that claim entails. Think about what the cost of it was to Him and just how free it is to you. When Jesus sent away those who had been healed or fogiven of sin, did He ever tell them to remember their sins or their past? Did He ever tell them to meditate on the reasons for His forgiveness or His grace? No, His direction was always the same. Go, and sin no more. It sounds as though you have been blessed with a beautiful and wonderful gift of a second chance with a wonderful companion. Don't allow the suspicions and judgemental attitudes of another, who lives in law destroy the gift of joy that we have in Jesus and His grace! Just one brother's opinion His! Thomas | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, I've also struggled with similar questions. As Thomas said above, divorce is not the unpardonable sin. While I'm not advocating "questionable" divorce with the qualification that "God will forgive me if this is a sin," what I am saying is this: if you have made peace with God over the circumstances of your first marriage, he has covered that whole part of your life with his grace and forgiveness. If I remember correctly, you came out of the church and really discovered the reality of Jesus' security and love for you after your divorce. Am I right? You are a different person and in a different place now than you were then. Further, my understanding of new covenant teaching is that divorce among believers is seen somewhat differently than it is among the non-born-again. 1 Corinthians 6 and 7 discuss immorality, divorce, and marriage from a believer's standpoint. Paul's bottom line is that Christ-followers have the Holy Spirit living in them, and whatever a believer does, he does with the involvement of the Holy Spirit. Further, our bodies belong to God, and when we are immoral, we are uniting the "members of Christ" (1 Cor. 6:15) in our sin. I've come to believe that one of the reasons the Old Testament patriarchs allowed divorce had to do with the fact that the new birth was not a reality yet. Because men's hearts were largely unrepentant and not connected to God, there was little chance that abusive men would ever stop being abusive. In fact, if a cruel man divorced his wife for trivial infractions, that divorce might provide an escape from a dangerous situation. In light of being born again, however, we are held to a higher standard, and we have the indwelling power of God to help us love and protect unselfishly. In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul explains that if a believer and an unbeliever are married, they should stay married unless the unbeliever wishes to leave. In that case, the believer is to let the unbeliever go peacefully. I cannot judge whether or not your fiancee's family are born again or not, but I find myself frustrated with people who use the New Testament guidelines to establish rules for unbelievers. I'm not saying the non-born-again should go ahead and divorce; please don't misunderstand me. But the indwelling presence of God in a true believer makes not only a new creation out of individuas, but it also makes a new reality out of our marriages and other relationships as well. I do believe that we must submit our pasts to God and admit our guilt, asking him to cover us with his blood and make us new. I also believe that we must submit our subsequent decisions to him, allowing his will to be ours. In short, however, if you are in prayer and truly open to God's leading, do not call a gift from God (such as a believing husband or wife) a sin or a deception from Satan. The nature of deception is that Satan superimposes lies over structures that we know are true. Your fiancee's inlaws are not in a position to evaluate the spiritual realities of your previous marriage and divorce, Doug. Would you ever advise a converted Mormon to go to his or her Mormon relatives for a biblical interpretation of a life decision? That may be an extreme example, but God will reveal his will to you and to your fiancee as you ask him. He simply asks us to be willing to surrender everything to Him so he can heal and redeem and direct us according to His perfect will. Colleen | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2003 |
John 8:1-7 -- The Pharisees bring an adulterer to Jesus and ask for his judgement, and he says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Matthew 18:23-35 -- The master forgives his servant, who them immediate threatens another servant, showing none of the mercy shown by the master... and the master orders the unforgiving servant to be turned over to the tormentors. So if someone questioned the rightness of my marrying, despite my having been divorced, then I might ask: 1) So, you are without sin? 2) Will you not forgive me mine, as the Lord has? I can think of very little in the NT that is as harsh as the Matthew 18:23-35. Adultery comes up in each of the Gospels in similar form, but it is a comparatively mild rebuke. Jesus's response to the Pharisees is as gentle as could be. But fail to forgive at your great peril! I'm taking this one to heart. Recommend it to your fiance's relatives, if they press the point. - Hoytster | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 442 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks to all who replied. I shared these responses with myy fiance. She is supposed to go see the Pastor this afternoon. My prayer is that she will see everything in the light of the forgiving God that we serve and not through a legalistic formula applied by a fellow sinner. Hoyster, I love your response: "God has already forgive me, can you not forgive me as well?" Colleen, as usual, your comments were right on the mark--especially your comment about a former mormon going to their mormon relatives for counsel on spiritual matters (btw, he approached her. She didn't initiate it, which is another problem in and of itself). And lastly, Thomas, I am well aware of God's saving grace which forgives my past, present, and future sins. As I understand it, it even covers divorce (imagine that). It is wonderful to live in His grace, even in the midst of a legalist world. There certainly is a peace that transcends understanding that comes from knowing to whom you belong. In His Grace | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2001 |
Doug, If the divorce was before you were saved then those "laws" don't apply to you anyways. Even if you were saved it is done and you can't go back and redo it. You are forgiven, slate clean either way. Biblically divorce is allowed for adultery, unbelieving spouse or death, but adultery can include a ton of things, such as abandonment, drug abuse, --look at the list of sins God calls Israel a prostitute for: seeking other God's, not following Him, worshipping idols, etc. etc. And frankly, it isn't any of their business! Who are they to judge? You are already clean because of the Word that has been spoken to you.  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, I've been wondering how things are going with your fiancee. How was her talk with her pastor? I remember hearing a now-deceased clinical psychologist (he was an SDA, but he was a serious Bible student and he was born again--as rare as that may be in Adventism!) say that unfaithfulness can include more than literal adultery, as Sabra said above. He said that anything, including cruelty, abuse, etc. that breaches the marriage vows constitutes unfaithfulness. Whether or not evangelical Bible scholars would say the text supports such an understanding may vary from person to person, but his interpretation has given me some food for thought on various occasions. Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 447 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks for asking Colleen. Actually, the meeting went very well. She did not actually meet with the Pastor, but she met with one of the Elders. He approached the situation from a very grace oriented perspective. He told her that the churches desire is always to seek reconciliation in cases of divorce, and that were it not for the fact that my ex had already remarried, they would probably counsel her to postpone the wedding in order to allow for that. I'm not sure that I totally agree. I think you have to look at each situation individually. However, he said that since my ex has already remarried, it is a moot point. They got into a discussion about her family's response to her leaving the SDA church. He told he was somewhat familiar with the teachings of the church and that would explain their extreme reaction. He was very clear about the fact that God does not have "one true church," and advised her that such beliefs are not only unscriptural, but toxic. I agree with what you and Sabra are saying about what constitutes adultery. I have thought this many times before, but was not sure if I was rationalizing my own situation. I tend to lean toward the figurative interpretation rather than the literal (and somewhat legalistic) one. Of course, I also believe that if you expand the definition of divorce, you might also have to expand the definition of marriage. I am not sure I believe that it occurs in God's eyes at the time that the minister pronounces you man and wife. In much the same way that you become a Christian long before you are literally baptized, I believe that marriage actually occurs at the point that you make a lifetime committment before God. I don't think most evangelical Biblical scholars would support that interpretation either. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2001 |
Doug, Either way it is done and you are forgiven if forgiveness is required and don't stress over it, it's somewhere at the bottom of the sea so don't try to dig it up. I feel like you feel responsible. Give yourself a break, we've all done worse things I'm sure, and many of us have been divorced, "No condemnation to those that are in Christ" !! God has a better plan for your life now and I pray you have a wonderful Christ-centered marriage! Now, go on to the future! Blessings! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2003 |
While I completely agree with Sabra, I would want both you and your fiance to enter the marriage without any concern or fear about that issue. Make sure you both can nail it down, and put it behind you. Marriage is hard enough without knowingly bringing in unresolved issues. Neither of you will want to look back and wish you had worked through it "before". The time to make her comfortable with her decision will be well worth it in the long run. Keep praying, and keep trusting God. He will not lead you wrong. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ditto, Melissa! The time to clarify is well worth it. And truly, what God ordains, no man's attack can negate. I'm praying for you and your fiancee, Doug! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 448 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks for the encouragement (and concern). Actually, I think she is pretty much at peace with the divorce issue. If anything, she needs to work through her family's ability to "pull her string"--a lot of that is tied to their strong Adventist roots. We're definitely working on that prior to the marriage. I appreciate everyone's prayers. God has already worked a miracle and I am excited to see what he is going to continue to do. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2004 |
Melissa, I wrote this thinking of you. One of my home health patients is a Southern Baptist minister. When I found that out I told him I was a new Christian and he shared with me, some Bible texts he uses when praying for others. He was very encouraging. Here they are so all of you can use them also. Praying for unbelievers: `pray for receptive and repentant hearts-Luke 8:5-12 `Pray for their spiritual eyes and ears to be opened to the truth of Christ Matt 13:15, 2 Cor. 4:3-4 ` Pray for them to have God's attitude toward sin John 16:8 `Pray for the person to be released to believe 2 Cor 10:3-4, 2 Tim 2:25-26. `Pray for a transforming life Rom 12:1-2 I have a lot more if you want to write me at DRL-OTR@juno.com in reference to the following. Praying for unbelievers Praying for personal spiritual meeds Specific prayer Prayer Journey Scriptures I will put these on a disc so when any of you wants them I can send them to you as an attachment. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 299 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks Diana. |
