| Author |
Message |
Jerry
Registered user
Username: Jerry
Post Number: 403
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 6:23 pm: |     |
Unfortunately, the "transference theory" takes advantage of centuries of misconceptions in various denominations.
Let there be no doubt: many Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic official teachings have made the mistake of calling Sunday the Sabbath of the fourth commandment (for Christians) throughout the years after the crucifixion.
The "Ten Sayings" are a convenient set of "Cliff Notes" for Christian behavior.
So, as most here know, the argument goes:
"You agree that we should keep the Ten, right?"
"Uh, sure."
"And the Sabbath is one of them, right?"
"Yeah, I go to church on Sunday."
"Where does the Bible say Sunday?"
"Um. erm. You know, Christ rose on Sunday."
"Yes, but where does the Bible say that was a Sabbath?"
"Oh. well. I dunno, I guess it doesn't."
SCORE!!!
. . . or some such sequence. All of this missing what we know are the deeper meanings of the Covenants and the Perfect Rest of "Today" given through Jesus.
You see, I have come to know that there is something so simple about the Gospel that appears so very complex for many others who want to "figure it out" and "learn all the rules."
Ask any esoteric theological question about Christianity you wish. Here is the answer:
The Blood of Jesus
Naww! It couldn't be THAT simple, could it?
Yep. It is that simple, yet infinitly complex. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 7:10 pm: | |
Such great insights and explanations, Doug, Melissa, and Jerry. I still feel overwhelmed to find a place where others understand Jesus to be their Sabbath rest, and where we can share the astonishing freedom of knowing the Lord of the Sabbath!
Related to the comments above about the Sabbath being held in higher esteem than God himself, I'm reminded of an interview I did several years ago with an SDA pastor who was being fired from the North Pacific Union Conference for his un-Adventist theology. He made the point that the traditional SDA teaching of the Sabbath being the seal of God was putting the Sabbath in the place of the Holy Spirit--an act which smacks of blasphemy and of the unpardonable sin (sin against the Holy Spirit). That idea certainly made an indelible impression on me!
Praise God for sending Jesus and for putting His Spirit in us! What an amazing, impossible-to-explain phenomenon!
Colleen |
Jeff
Registered user
Username: Jeff
Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 8:38 pm: | |
Colleen, Doug, Jerry, and Melissa,
It is another "Amazing Fact" that God has given us a single truth that is so paramount to the Christocentric-nature of Scripture; the sabbath rest in Christ. I stand amazed that He has blessed us so. It was during a recent conversation (discussing the sabbath) with my best friend growing up,( now an Adventist Physician) who was my roommate at the Academy, that he stopped me in mid-speech and said this statement : "Jeff, Just promise me one thing. That when they(the sunday-keepers) are chasing us (the sabbath-keepers) through the woods that you will be running with me and not after me." He was dead serious when he said it.
This is not a stupid man. He is very educated, but this is type of statement is typical when diagnosing delusions of paranoia. My prayer is that God would open my friend's eyes to God's truth. Please pray for him.
In Him,
Jeff |
Barbsigirl
Registered user
Username: Barbsigirl
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 8:59 pm: | |
A while ago, when I was struggling with all these adventism questions, I was sitting in my car listening to Christian radio. I had been praying for God to lead me. A song came on by Point of Grace, called "The Wonder of It All". I had heard the song a hundred times before, and wasn't really even paying that much attention when suddenly a phrase JUMPED out at me! It went like this....
"It's a natural thing to believe that something wonderful never comes easy...Let it go!"
I was so amazed and in awe by that. I hadn't been able to get it through my head that it wasn't going to be a lot of work to get into heaven!
I remember a dream I had many years ago of trying to climb a rope to get into this airplane, and in the dream I knew it symbolized heaven. I remember I could barely do it, and my dad reached down and helped me up. But it wasn't Jesus, it was my earthly father. I think my entire childhood was spent worrying about unconfessed sins and if I forgot one, would I still be able to get into heaven!
I know I have many questions and I look forward to the input you all have.
Barb
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Clay
Registered user
Username: Clay
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 10:16 am: | |
I certainly agree with you concerning the struggle to let go of the Sabbath. We have to stop playing the old tapes and focus on the new truth God has given us regarding our "rest in Christ". Its not about a day but rather about the person of Jesus Christ. Weither we choose to worship with other believiers on Sat., Sun, Tues or any day matters very little. I believe corporate worship can be beneficial IF the word of God is taught faithfully and IF we are able to encourage one another in our spiritual walk with Jesus but IF that does not happen then there is little value in corporate worship on any particular.
I just want to ad a comment regarding some recent discussion about our "close-minded "Adventist friends. Please let us remember that at some time in the past we too were probably close-minded as well. I know I was for sure. The Holy Spirit is so patient with us and we need to be patient with our SDA relatives and friends. I beleive the most important thing we can do is to pray that the Holy Spirit will lead them to see the wonderful truths we have come to love. We need to just love them and be sensitive for opportunities the Holy Spirit may give us to say a word or two. The peace and love that we exhibit in our lives in their presence will be the most powerful witness we can give them. Doing verbal battles is in most cases, of very little value. Yes they usually believe we are eternally lost but what they see in our lives may cause them to question that assumption.
In my early months as a FORMER SDA I was zealous to convince all my SDA family of their error's and found very quickly that was not the approach that had any value, except to put up higher walls between us. I have now told my family that I have no desire to get into heated arguments re what they believe and what I believe. I tell them I have been on both sides of the fence and have studied the issues very carefully for many months so they will never convince me to change back. I am very much at peace with what I have been lead to understand and I am resting my eternal destiny completely in the hands of Jesus Christ. If they sincerely want to ask me some questions because they honestly want to see it from a different perspective, I am most willing to talk with them, otherwise I just want to love them as I always have and will not try to change their thinking.
Somehow this approach puts them at ease a bit and we can maintain our friendship to a certain degree. If this is not acceptable to some of them and they keep wanting to argue with me, I have simply refused to discuss the issues.
It is the loving gentle spirit of Jesus seen in our lives that will speak the loudest to them.
This approach may not be yours but it is what I believe God would have me use for now anyway.
Just a comment to Melissa regarding a statement you made earlier about "thanking me for a 2 sermon series on the Sabbath". I am not the Clay who did that series. That is probably Clay from Grace Place Church in Colo. I'm Clay from Canada.
Sorry for the confusion.
In His Rest,
Clay from the North |
Jeff
Registered user
Username: Jeff
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 11:11 am: | |
Clay,
I enjoyed your posting. You are right about your reminder to wait on the Lord on bringing truth to anyone, none the less an Adventist. You did make one curious statement in your posting. You stated that "the Holy Spirit was patient with us". What do you mean by this statement? You may have a good point and I don't want to miss it.
Your Brother,
Jeff
(From the deep South) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | |
That's an excellent point, Clay. It does no good to argue with those who don't wish to change. I have experienced judgment and confusion and discomfort from people I've know well who remain Adventists, and some have cut off contact with me. Others stay in touch, but our interactiion is superficial. Once they asked their questions and decided they couldn't go where I had gone, they backed off and avoid talking about spiritual things.
It truly does no good to engage them in argument or discussion. God has to wake them up, and they have to be willing to face the (often uncomfortable) truths about their own lives that come into focus as they embrace the truth of Jesus and his word.
The reality is that some are truly angry and, at least for the moment, "closed minded", and they may cut off contact with us in spite of our willingness to maintain relationships with them. My experience has been that the fact of my leaving the church has been the point where some in my life decided to sever ties. They were willing to chat and exchange ideas and discuss spiritual things as long as they believed I was an Adventist, even if I didn't believe as Adventists believe. When I left, they no longer felt comfortable talking to me. If I had stayed officially Adventist for the sake of not shutting off my communication with them, I would have been compromising my integrity. My witnessing to them would have been tainted at that point.
God really does lead all of us to follow him in his own time. When we finally experience his nudging us to leave, however, I'm convinced that we compromise our witness if we do not obey him. There is truly loss when we decide to follow Jesus wherever he leads. There is also true joy, and he gives us even more than we lose!
In spite of whatever alienation we may experience, however, we are called, as Clay reminded us, to love our Adventist friends and family for God.
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 487
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Kind of on this topic but not totally is that program that comes on the t.v. each Sunday morning with Mark Findly. I forgot the name of the program but my mom watches it religiouselly. He is doing a series of the Waldenses and is telling everyone who sees that program how the Waldenses were the true followers of God until modern times when another group was brought forth by God to keep the truth going. |
Jerry
Registered user
Username: Jerry
Post Number: 405
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 6:16 am: | |
This is the SDA version of "we can trace our church all the way back to Jesus without going through the RCC." The Baptists had their version, and I don't doubt others did as well.
The Waldenses were basically iconclastic Catholics who started out very close to RCC beliefs, but with contempt for the hierarchy of the church. They eventually moved to protestantism.
They were never seventh day Sabbath keepers, but they were "Sabbath keepers" in the same sense as the RCC was a "Ten Commandments for Christians" legalist church. It was always the first day/Lord's Day.
The SDA church also claims the Albegensians as their heritage. What they ignore, is the fact that they (Abegensians) were very close to paganism. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 7:36 pm: | |
Last Sunday I taught an adult Sunday School class in my church. I often teach when the regular teacher is out of town. Before I taught the lesson about Joseph and his brothers (we are currently going through Genesis chapter by chapter), I presented a special feature titled, "ONCE HOLY, ALWAYS HOLY?" I attempted to make a case for contemporary circumcision by using prooftexts from the Torah or Pentateuch. My intent was to show that the Gospel does NOT include making "principles" out of old covenant rituals and festivals.
Wow! What a lively discussion resulted from this special feature! It almost seemed like I was addressing an Adventist audience. Immediately, sabbathing and tithing were being defended as "principles." Why not make principles out of all the Old Testament rituals? Obviously, Seventh-day Adventism does not corner the market on legalism. Sadly, it is alive and well even in Evangelical circles.
Christ is indeed the central focus of all Scripture. It is the natural bent of the human heart to be legalistic. With literally hundreds of Jewish civil and ceremonial laws no longer binding for Christians, it should not be surprising to find a ceremonial law among the Ten Commandments as well. In the Torah, the moral, civil, and ceremonial laws are all mixed up together. A moral law is eternal, universally-applicable, 24-7, and fully valid every second of every minute--not just one day a week. Furthermore, a moral law is not dependent upon the rotation of the earth's axis.
Paul tells us that even the heathen can live moral lives by observing nature. However, the heathen cannot decipher one day from another without a special revelation. A specific ceremonial (i.e., festival) law cannot be gleaned from nature (common sense and/or conscience)alone. Thus, the Israelites had to be reminded (e.g., "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy")about specific festivals and rites.
Dennis J. Fischer
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 7:43 am: | |
What a great point, Dennis, about the Israelites needing to be reminded because the Sabbath was not a law they could know from nature.
I am convinced that perhaps a majority of Christians do not really understand the New Covenant and what it means that Jesus fulfilled the law. When Jeremiah and Ezekiel, etc., prophesied that God would give people a new heart and put his law in their hearts, those prophecies were fulfilled completely. Not only does Jesus' sacrifice provide the way for the Holy Spirit to put the moral law in our hearts (as opposed to outside on tablets of stone), he put the fulfillment of the ceremonial laws in our hearts, too. Through Jesus' death/resurrection and the Holy Spirit's indwelling, God has put the Sabbath in our hearts, circumcision in our hearts (which the OT always insisted was God's desire), cleanness (symbolized by the food laws, etc.) in our hearts, separateness from the world (the new birth/new creation) in our hearts, etc.
The law truly is in our hearts in the person of the Holy Spirit--God Himself! How awesome! And how human and sad that so many people keep looking to the shadows of Jesus to try to find meaning and structure and consistency for their lives.
Colleen |
Rey_cantu
Registered user
Username: Rey_cantu
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 8:12 pm: | |
hello, iam a former sda pastor.
just checking and trying the system.
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Thomas1
Registered user
Username: Thomas1
Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 1:31 am: | |
Welcome Ray,
I am sure you will find a whole lot of fellowship here.
Thank Jesus for ... EVERYTHING!
<><
Thomas |
Terryk
Registered user
Username: Terryk
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 10:00 am: | |
Great to see you on the forum. Hope you can tell us your story. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Welcome, Rey! You'll find great support and conversation here.
Praise God for truth!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 70
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
Bienvenidos Rey.
Being a new ex SDA I have been reading the Bible starting with Matthew. I love John where it talks in many places about believing and accepting Jesus. That is what the Father wants us to do. I eventually got in Acts and Stephen's testimony to the Jews before he was stoned. I read that a couple of times. Then I read Romans. Wow!! The covenants were made so clear to me. I went to SDA schools from 1st grade through university and do not remember the Blood of Christ being preached. The Gospel is so simple and I am so thankful for it and that I not longer have to feel guilty. Jesus died for me on the cross. He was buried and resurrected so that I do not have to experience death. That kind of love I do not understand, but that is fine with me as long as I believe it and respond to it.
God is Good!!
Diana |
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