| Author | Message | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2004 |
That Jesus is true Sabbath for Christians was very new thought for me. Never ever had anybody threw that kind of idea in the air. But when I lerned it, it stroke me like a lightning and I knew at once that it was the missing piece in my life¥s puzzle. I accepted it immediately and understood it was right. But I wonder if I¥m the only one in Finland who accepts it that way. Only my sister agrees me. Everybody else seems to think that it¥s not possible, that we have to keep 10 commandments as they are written. Even some former SDA who rejects Investigative Judgment, tithes etc. rejects "Jesus as a Sabbath" - thought as well. They think that Sabbath is unchangeable like the other commandments, too. And Jesus gave orders to keep sabbath (Luke 4:16, Marc 2:27-28, Heb.4:4) and sabbath is part of sanctification. They agree that it¥s not salvation question but you still have to sanctify Sabbath like God said. I¥ve learned so much about Jesus and Sabbath through your conversations here but what do you think of this that Sabbath connects to sanctification? "Without sanctification nobody is going to see God." (one former SDA). And how wide known this Jesus=Sabbath is there in US? How do people accept this truth? | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 449 Registered: 3-2001 |
Tuija, It is exciting see the Spirit work with you. You have come across what I consider to be one of the keys to understanding the Gospel. When you realize that everything in the old and New Testament points to Jesus, it makes such a difference. The traditoinal view of sanctification focuses all the attention on our response to the gift of salvation. Although people give lip service to the work of the Holy Spirit, it really comes down to conforming your behavior (under the power of the Holy Spirit of course) to the law. Jesus is not found anywhere in this equation, except as our example. WHen you begin to see Jesus as our substitute, you realize that his sacrifice was totally and completely sufficient. There is nothing that can be added. The only thing we can do is learn to enjoy the gift more fully. Arguments for Sabbath observance, tithing, vegetarianism, tea totalling, etc. as binding requirements go out the window. We are FREE in Jesus. The Sabbath=Jesus argument is not accepted at all within Adventist circles. Some will acknowledge it intellectually, but they will be quick to add that it is primarily a memorial of creation. Among former Adventists, I believe it generally takes a while for people to accept. I have a friend who left about the same time as I (spiritually, it was 3-4 years ago, physically, it was 2 years ago), yet he still holds on to the Sabbath. He cannot see that it was fulfilled in Christ. Robert Sanders, who hosts www.truthorfables.com was out of the SDA church for many years, yet he just accepted the Jesus as the fulfillment of the Sabbath in the past year. I am excited watching your excitement. I pray that you continue to be open to the Spirits leading. You will find that you don't know anywhere near what you used to think you knew, and you will find amazing comfort in that fact. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2004 |
Doug, thank you for your precious support. Sometimes I feel totally alone with my faith. I pray Lord that I can stand firm in His light. I know I am really free as Jesus promised. But those people can be so assuring and give tens of verses to support their views. Sometimes I feel very confused and thats why I have to escape here often. I¥m so lonely with my new light, I have no one except my sister to talk to. Please, pray for me. Although nothing is going to take away my confidence to Jesus. Nothing. But as you know, there is somebody who doesn¥t like it. And he keeps attacking and puts doubts in your mind. Jesus is my light Tuija | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2003 |
I can sure relate to what you're feeling Tuija - last night I had a call from a church member who went round and round with the Adventist view of salvation/sanctification. I felt frustrated as he wasn't interested in hearing my thoughts but only in dogmatically stating his. I too felt a little confused by all the double talk ie- yes your salvation is in Christ alone but part of that salvation is the sanctifying work that is being done in you, etc, etc, etc. I realized it is, in most cases, a waste of energy to even have these conversations as they are one sided. I am praying for you that Jesus will continue to fill you with his presence, keeping you focused on him in the face of all such attacks. He has brought us this far and is faithful to keep us in his light. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tuija, though I have never been an Adventist, and though I believed that Christ was the fulfillment of all the old testament shadows, it was only recently that I understood what that meant. He is our passover lamb, he is our first fruits, etc. and yes, he is our rest. It's a fascinating concept that I think you only grasp as you learn to walk in the Spirit regardless of the flesh. When I see Christ as "rest", I see it as so much more than not doing laundry one day a week...or not washing dishes...or whatever activity. Christ as rest is a concept that is eternal, not temporal or physical. It is not something I "do". Just as his being my passover lamb is nothing I "do". I just accept it. I'm a single parent. If I did everything I had to do to take one whole day a week and do nothing, I would be exhausted the other 6 days of the week. Where's the value in that? What I have found is that by allowing God to be Lord of my day, everyday, I am in constant rest even when I am in turmoil otherwise. It is so hard to explain. It is that peace that reallly just doesn't make logical sense. The battles I have in the flesh take away from my physical strength, but don't touch my spirit. That's Christ. I know genuinely God-fearing people who would say all the right words, but have never come to the realization of Christ as our rest in the way they would easily recognize him as our passover lamb. And it's because of the confusion about the 10 commandments. Last week, one of our church teachers said the 10 commandments were the cliff notes version of the whole law. (Cliff notes are books here that boil a complex subject matter into simple terms). I thought it was a great analogy of the law, but I knew he would have a battle in any discussion with an SDA. There are some battles that just can't be won with words. It has to be won in the Spirit first. From a non-SDA perspective, I see more people trying to figure out how to live day to day for Christ more than figure out those analogies and symbolisms from the Old Testament. It's a bit easier in the new. We spend more time talking about how to live the "one anothers" in the Bible than anything. That doesn't mean we don't read the Old Testament. Right now, we're studying the life of David and that is all over the place. But we study it to apply to our lives today...his successes, his failures and how God was faithful in spite of everything. That hunger you have is so exciting to hear. I have also been on a quest the last few years where I just cannot read the Bible enough and it is rewarding and frustrating at the same time...I just can't read all day. But I have learned that by taking small sections each day, God speaks to me through the day about the passage, and somedays he even applies it to direct situations in my own life. Hang on to Jesus and I will pray for God to lead you to a church body that can support and nurture you in the faith. Look what a great testimony you have to share and the insights you can pass along to others. We all have so much to learn and gain from each other. I can't wait until the day we can all meet together beyond "cyberspace". God's richest blessings on you. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have a starting point for discussing "beliefs" with Adventists or other dogmatic believes. I ask them, "If I can show you from the Bible and the Bible only what I believe and why I believe, and if what I believe is true acording to the Bible and the Bible only, whould you be willing to except it as truth for your life and accept it for yourself?" Stated another way, are they argueing only to change my mind or are they really seeking to come to a knowledge of truth. If they say they are, we continue to discuss, with the guidance of the Spirit. If not, I decline further discussion based on the advice of Paul to Titus. It really cuts dowh on the number of "Discussions" I get invited to. I really believe in the "solas" of the Reform faith. Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone. Sola Gracia, By God's Grace alone. Sola Fide, By Faith Anone. And Soli Christos, In Jesus Christ, alone! I also hold to the fifth one, Soli Deo Gloria, To God's Glory alone. If these are not bedrock of a spiritual discussion, they I am not going to waste my time trying to "convince" others who are not grounded in Him. In His Service <>< Thomas | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2003 |
GREAT insight Thomas. I wish I had that .... 4 years ago... :-) | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 271 Registered: 1-2003 |
Wow...I am amazed. We are having a heated arguement over on www.carm.org about the "fruits" of salvation. The SDA's claim we are saved by faith but say the works or fruits are commandment keeping. The awful "Cheap Grace" line has been thrown around...haven't seen that in a while...pretty cheeky. Also, Sabbath rest in Jesus is totally unacceptible to them because Sabbath is a Memorial not a shadow of things to come. Whatever. And another guy who is now posting had never seen Hebrews 3 and 4 as being proof that we enter the Sabbath rest 'today' when we believe in Christ. Instead of addressing it he said he didn't have time...perhaps he is thinking about it...I am sure he will come back with something to try and disprove it and make Hebrews 3 and 4 into an admonishion to keep the 7th day. It gets tiring somtimes. I too had a hard time with that concept because of how I had been programmed. Over the last year and a half the Lord is showing me how it makes sense...so slow of understanding am I! Praise God you have your sister Hallenvara! I had no one...absolutely no one to share my "coming out" with...I take that back...I posted here continually and it was because of this website I was able to process and receive Godly advice. God led you/us here for a purpose! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've been re-reading your all's stories now that I've connected a few names and I was reading Colleen's again last night and just caught all the references to Christ as Sabbath rest and realized how it really didn't even register to me the first time I read it. The Word of God is deep and bountiful. That's why we can keep looking at it and finding more to grow on. Your testimonies were that to me yesterday as I connected stories with the names I've read on here the last 6 months. God does get glory through what we've been through, just like Thomas said, even if we don't see it at the moment. Pheeki, I'd give you a hug if I could. I don't know how you can keep going back to that site. | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tuija what a great site to read your new found faith. I would love to share with you as a fellow sister my e-mail is tbawgus@hotmail.com I would love to share with you experiences and share what I have gone through leaving the SDA church after 27 years. I look forward to your e-mail. I am so blessed and also know of the sadness one feels when he leaves his church family and friedns. I was sitting in church this week and I am not sure of the song but it touched my heart because one verse was I will follow Christ no matter what that price and many of us have paid a price. Its funny I think we so understand these things more then regular christians who have not had to go through what we have. Love you all. Glad to be back on the forum. Terryk | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2003 |
How's your hubby, Terry? | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 450 Registered: 3-2001 |
Tuija, I'll pass on a little something that I have learned/adopted. I am not a theologian, so this method may not be theologically correct, but it works for me. I believe that every passage of scripture has a "primary meaning." It is important to understand the primary meaning, before you can broaden its application. What this means for me is that any doctrine must be clearly and specifically taught in at least one "substantial" portion of scripture. If it isn't, I am leary. This virtually shoots prooftexters in the foot. Those who adopt the "here a little there a little..." method of Bible study irresponsibly lift texts (and in many cases portions of texts) completely out of their immediate context, combine them with other texts that have been similarly abused and then create entire doctrines around them. The investigative judgement is a prime example. The idea of a "Remnant Church" is another--as is the law as a transcript of God's character. You would be hard pressed to find anywhere in the Bible where these topics are dealt with specifically. I am sure that you are realizing that you came out of a system that sees everything in black and white. It has an answer for everything. Ironically, the one thing that is black and white (the fact that we can be secure in our salvation) is the area that Adventists will debate adnauseum, while being totally and completely inflexible in the nonessentials. I am praying that you will hold fast to the confidence that you are developing in Christ. Do not let anyone separate you from this great truth. I pray that like the Apostle Paul, you would be able to say:
It is worthy of mentioning here that this same Paul was quite the religious zealot in his earlier days, and would have put most Adventists to shame in their law keeping (and knowledge of the law). It was this same Paul that God brought to his knees in order that he might lift him up. Tuija, God is doing the same with you. God bless you. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
Melissa thanks for asking. He is doing better. I am not sure if I told you all that he was in a car accident which someone ran into someone behind him and he hit someone in front. It caused him to have a neck sprain that is getting better too. He says he feels like he has a black cloud over his head. Its been crazy here with the weather. I envy all of you who are in warmer states. Hey Leigh are you keeping warm. Please pray for me I am stuck in the house with my own kids and daycare too. Oh and half the neighborhood. Well have a good day everyone. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2003 |
It came as a bit of a shock when I began to discover that Christianity in general doesn't understand Christ as Sabbath rest in a very significant way. While there are those who do understand, it seems that those who never thought of the day as holy don't understand how amazing it is to discover that Sabbath rest isn't about time. As Adventists we sort-of felt like we DESERVED that seventh day off because we worked hard and prepared for that day. It was almost a reward for our faithful lawkeeping. (On the other hand, that "reward" was often a burden of guilt and denial!) I'll never forget my first year teaching at ACA. It was the 1999-2000 school year, and it was about a year (perhaps a bit more) after we left Adventism. My teaching load was so heavy, and I had to redevelop all my paper grading routines, etc. I felt completely overwhelmed. I thought I might drown in unfinished work! I distinctly remember thinking, "If Sabbath rest is truly real, then it has to work where I am out-of-control, and I'm out-of-control of my schedule--and my whole life!--right now!" I began to pray that God would help my heart to be at rest, that he would help me do what had to be done and let the rest go, and that he would keep me calm instead of panicking. I prayed often that he would be my rest as I struggled to grade stacks of papers, do housework, etc. The miracle was that He calmed my franticness. THAT is no small miracle, let me tell you! I reminded myself that God had virtually laid this job in my lap and had provided it when we had just dropped our largest client (Adventist Today) when we left the church. Since God clearly wanted me teaching here at that time, then He would have to provide the strength and peace I needed to be able to do the job as he wanted me to do it. He has been so faithful. Sabbath rest has completely changed my life, and Richard says the same thing. It's not even remotely about time; it entirely about the Holy Spirit mediating the love and strength and peace of Jesus in our hearts as we walk by faith in our otherwise out-of-control lives. I was just reading in My Utmost For His Highest by Oswald Chambers this passage: "The greatest competitor of devotion to Jesus is service for Him. It is easier to serve than to be drunk to the dregs. The one aim of the call of God is the satisfiaction of God, not a call to do something for Him. We are not sent to battle for God, but to be used by God in His battlings." The battle is the Lord's, and he wants us to trust him and let his peace rule in our hearts as he provides whatever is necessary to accomplish his work. After all, it is never OUR work when we're doing His will. Our job is merely to obey and follow. The work is his, and God uses us as he accomplishes his purposes. It's not up to us to make our work succeed. It's God's responsibility when it's truly his work. Our hearts can be at peace even when chaos reigns around us, because the battle is his, and he is faithful! Sabbath rest is the most amazing reality. It's hard to imagine that the 24-hours was ever significant to me; it was merely a shadow of the actual presence of Christ! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2003 |
Colleen I think you've just put into words what I've been experiencing in my life. Since I've come to know Jesus as my Sabbath rest my otherwise frantic life has been more peaceful. I used to waste hours worrying and rushing around, trying SO hard to keep my life, family and home in perfect order. The Friday syndrome was the worst - always felt like everything had to be completely perfect - super clean house, food prepared, clothing ready for church - while I was running around wearing myself out every Friday I was miserable, stressed, yelling at my kids and just plain exhausted by nightfall. I hated myself for being so disorganized. I read every book on Sabbath preparation and how to do it right ;-) Never could quite get there though. Now I can sit here in the middle of a less than perfect home, read and study and be calm when things get hectic. I don't even notice the things that used to drive me crazy. My attitude is so different and the self induced pressure is gone. I had attributed it to just not caring but the reality is that I am experiencing that life changing rest in Christ. The things that used to be so important have lost their value as my focus has turned toward Him. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tuija, I am finding that more and more christians are seeing this too. Many of the traditional churches taught that Sunday was the Sabbath but I don't see that in many churches anymore. If you look at the 7 churches of Revelation only one in seven is found to be where they need to be, the other 6 have serious problems despite the fact that they have good areas too. I personally believe that is a true respresentation of the church as a whole. We can't take any man's word for anything without testing the spirits and searching for ourselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I like Doug's method, God always confirms scripture with scripture as far as I can tell and He also sends people to confirm things that He reveals to us. I like one preacher's analogy of the OT being a dress rehearsal for the real thing: Purpose of a dress rehearsal is to show where correction is needed, to point out the flaws, to work out the kinks, to instruct, to practice. There is no applause for the dress rehearsal, no reward and it's nothing like the real thing! The OT is the shadow, Jesus is the reality! | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
I thank you my sisters and brothers of your words. I know it¥s hard especially western people to grasp that something people achieved by doing, like Sabbathrest, can change in NT so dramatically. That Sabbathrest lies in person, in God. That we can rest in person. Hard to take: rest IN Him. We are used to rest WITH Him as we rest with our family and friends. We are by nature so legalistic and during our lives we get by doing what we deserve. People love doing this and that. That makes you feel you are doing right. But now you just have to lie and rest in CHRIST! How you can rest IN Christ? Of course we can rely on Him and He promised His peace to us, but but...... I think that¥s why it¥s been so impossible thought trough generations because: To rest you MUST have special day. You ALWAYS have had a special day. Not lutheran, not Jehova¥s Wittnesses, not Mormons... What churches there ever are, not one of them as a whole congregation had taught that you don¥t no more as a Christian have any special day for rest and Christ is our rest. No one. They just keep on fighting the right day, but don¥t ever think about the right WAY. At least in Finland there is no such church. Spokenfor, you wrote excatly what I feel. The whole burden of do¥s and don¥ts dropped away when I realized this rest. I don¥t worry anything anymore. I used to be a "perfectionist". Worried every possible thing that may go wrong. Worried how I manage when I was without job. (I¥m a singleparent). Now I trust truly on Jesus and I¥m so sure everything is going to be ok. We are found something so wonderful and it¥s so sad that people don¥t want to see it. They just want to watch the shadow. Rauhaa ja siunausta (peace and blessings) Tuija | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2003 |
I was like you Tuija - perfectionistic, worried about everything, suffered terrible anxiety most of my life. It's gone. Praise Jesus for taking it away and replacing it with his perfect peace! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2003 |
I so identify with both of you. I remember realizing, as we were leaving Adventism behind and learning to embrace Jesus, that one of the great gifts the Holy Spirit was giving me was The Present. I had always lived in anxiety for the future, rehashing of the past, and desperate attempts to do the right thing now so I could ensure against ruining "tomorrow". But Jesus took away that anxiety, and I'll never forget the realization that dawned on me that I could live and enjoy the moment and leave the future in His hands. I know that living in the present is something self-help books and articles always promote: relax, take time for yourself, enjoy the moment, let your obligations sit on hold while you pamper yourself for awhile, etc--but I could never make it work for me. If I "took time off" I always paid in guilt or even more stress. What Jesus does, though, is not helping me take time off for myself. When I realize that I do not live for myself but for him, then he becomes responsible for my days and time and for my ability to do what he wants me to do. He has given me a much deeper peace than merely the relaxation of a self-indulgent break. Even if I don't get a break, still I have his presence and his meaning and peace, and I can live NOW and be fully present, not anxiously waiting for "the next shoe to drop". Praise Jesus for Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 451 Registered: 3-2001 |
It is interesting that you guys should be talking about this because just last night I was messing around on the piano (I have been self teaching myself on and off for about the last 20 years). I was playing some songs out of the SDA Hymnal (its the only one I have laying around the house), and I came across one of my old favorites, "When We All Get to Heaven." It dawned on me how sad the song is. It places our entire hope in the future, with no recognition of the fact that we can have rest now. It totally ignores the Holy Spirit as the earnest of our inheritance. It denies the fact that Jesus came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly beginning today. It misses the fact that today is the acceptable time to enter into his rest. In case some of you may have forgotten the words, here they are:
The other song I was playing is, "The Saviour is Waiting." All I could conjure up is images of evangelistic crusades where the evangelist is imploring the congregation to come to the altar and make a decision before its too late--you know, fire insurance. I realize that maybe there is nothing inherently wrong with these songs, however, the manner in which they were used speaks volumes to the legalistic Adventist mindset. Resting in His Grace Doug |
