| Author | Message | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Terryk , still iced in today, but hopefully weíll be able to get out tomorrow! I used to ponder this question ìif the Sabbath commandment is eternal , what did John mean in Revelation 22:5? ìAnd there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light; and they shall reign for ever and ever.î If the Sabbath is to be observed from ìeven to evenî forever how can that be if there is no night and no sun to set? Tuija, Welcome! Do you live near the Artic circle? Iím just curious how Adventists who live above the arctic circle observe ìeven to evenî in the winter when the sun doesnít rise and in the summer when the sun doesnít set? A few months ago, I told everyone about the Bible study that Iím using with my children. The main focus of this study is to show how everything in the Bible points to Jesus as our salvation. There were a few points that I had never thought of before doing this study. One is the make shift coverings that Adam and Eve made with leaves. That was not acceptable to God. God had to kill an animal and HE put the skins over them. The leaves represent what we try to do to make ourselves acceptable to God. God provided a way to cover the effects of their sin. This covering points forward to the robe of Christís righteousness that only He can provide. Another is the story of Noah: Only one ark, (salvation). Only one door (faith in Jesus). We were reading Genesis 7:15: ìAnd they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, where IS THE BREATH OF LIFE.î I never noticed that before. Did anyone else think that the ark in Noahís time represented the keeping of the Sabbath at the end of time? I donít know if I was taught that or just came up with that since the Sabbath was deemed to be the deciding factor in the last days. I also seem to have learned either by direct instruction or by deduction, that everything in the Bible points to the Sabbath. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 452 Registered: 3-2001 |
Leigh, To answer your question about the keeping of the Sabbath north of the arctic circle, they establish a time (usually 6 p.m.) in which to observe it. SO, it would be observed from 6 p.m. - 6 p.m. Having lived in Alaska, its interesting when you see the conference sundown charts. For certain parts of Alaska, they simply have dashes in place of the sunset time for periods during June/July and November/December/January. Doug | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi Leigh, I am interested in the name of the study that you're using with your children? Or maybe you could refer me to the earlier thread that it was on. Thanks so much! I've thought alot about the 'no more night' verse in Revelation too. It seems like heaven will be a place where we will endlessly be in God's presence praising and worshipping him without earthly barriers like time. I guess the Sabbath rest we have now in Christ is a fortaste of that! | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh Leigh we need to get out. I am going stir crazy. I just want to walk around a mall. Right now I have 4 kids playing a virtual baseball game and three sleeping and one doing crafts. Oh the joy. Leigh I enjoyed what you wrote about other things leading to Christ. I do all my cleaning and am ready for the weekend on Friday but it sure seems different now no stress. Everything is so new and fresh when you leave the church and after you get over the fear of being lost and sadness of leaving all your friends you start to smell the roses so to speak. And see the beauty in the Bible and Jesus. Glad to be able to share with others who know what I have left behind. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Spokenfor, The name of the study is FIRM FOUNDATIONS CREATION TO CHRIST It is published by New Tribes Mission. I first saw it in Christian book Distributors homeschool catalog. If you go to www.ntmbooks.com click on catalog and then you'll see the Firm Foundations books. if you click on the picture of the books, you should be able to view and print a sample lesson. Even though it's listed in a homeschool catalog, the back of one of the guides says that it is good for Sunday schools, family devotions, bible clubs, etc. For three years I homeschooled using the sda curriculm including the Bible class. The last year that we used the bible curriculum, (it's been several years now) one of the test questions was: " What is the blessing of keeping the 10 commandments?" My daughter wrote this answer on her test. "Going to heaven." I would check her answers and we would go over what she answered and then we would have to send the test in to be graded. (I didn't have the answer key for the period tests) When we came to that answer, I was upset because I thought that I had taught her salvation by grace. I bought into the lipservice of "yes, we believe in salvation by grace, " Three years of sda bible instruction proved otherwise. I told her that we are saved by grace, not by keeping the commandments. I was curious to see if her answer would be marked wrong. It was not. According to Home Study International, the blessing of keeping the 10 commandments is going to heaven. I was appalled. This was almost 2 years ago. An early crack in my sda beliefs. "Creation to Christ" has been a great blessing to me and my children. leigh | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Terryk I agree with you about the stress of having everything ready on Friday. I would usually leave everything that needed to get done until Friday and then was cranky and stressed about getting everything done before sunset. The vast majority of the time, I wouldn't get it done and then would feel guilty and promise to do better. I remember one time I had everthing done just right. My husband was out of town and I was proud of myself for getting everything ready for the Sabbath. then...at sundown.... The toilet overflowed upstairs. While i went for the plunger, my youngest "helped" by flushing the toilet again. Several inches of water on the floor, several load of laundry later, I thought this is crazy. I Tried so hard. Now, I try to do things during the week, so that we can have a "family fun day" on Saturday, not to try to be the perfect Sabbath keeper that I was never able to be. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh, I never actually thought of the Sabbath as the ark of safety, but I did hear the SDA church mentioned in that context! Doug, How interesting that you should bring up those hymns. I have such negative memories of several hymns. I remember "When We All Get To Heaven" as being SOOO dreary to sing. That's odd, because it wasn't a slow song. But I remember the words meaning essentially nothing to me, and I felt weary singing it. "The Saviour Is Waiting" conjures up those same evangelistic memories for me. Some evangelist's wife (or maybe a singing evangelist) would swoon out that song while the audience sat in guilty, teary tension, trying to decide whether they should go forward or not. Another song that I HATED was "Redeemed, How I Love To Proclaim It". I know the words have been transplanted into a more interesting melody since I was a kid, but the music was SO boring, and that song made me so tired when I sang it. It's words (and the words for The Savior Is Waiting as well) meant almost nothing to me. They just repeated the old information I heard in Sabbath School and Bible class, and It all seemed distant and theoretical and mandatory--and I had no clue how to experience what those songs talked about. I'm convinced that singing songs of praise, worship, or adoration is hard for people who have not been born again. I've marvelled many times over the past few years that I can sing for twenty minutes in church now--and I could keep going after that--but when I was an Adventist, my throat would get tight and sore from singing a single hymn. Wow, the things God frees up in us when we surrender to him! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2003 |
Regarding the verse in Revelation about no more night, I asked B how there would be a Sabbath in heaven if there was no more night. He said he didn't know but was sure Isaiah said it would be. So, I went to the passage in Isaiah and looked at the context, If you read on down, it also says when people die at 100, they'll be considered a mere youth... Basically, since I don't think the Bible teaches death in heaven, it says to me that the passage cannot be describing eternity. That's another question on the eternal sabbath "day" front. It is obvious that we will have the real sabbath (Christ) for eternity, but it will not be a place on calendars and timepieces. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2004 |
It is wonderful to see believers that understand about the true Sabbath. As a former Adventist I fell into the same paradigm of sabbath worship that the unbelieving jews did in Paul's day. I am also excited about finding others that have been delivered from Adventism as I have. The non-Adventist mainstream churches seem to be of the belief that Adventistism are somehow orthodox. This is my first posting at this site and I just wanted to say hello. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 453 Registered: 3-2001 |
Allow me to be the first to welcome you to FAF Jeff. I would love to hear more of your story, if you don't mind. You are certainly among friends here. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks Doug, I will be brief. I was raised in the Adventist Church in Cleveland, Tennessee. I was a third generation Adventist. I went to Bass Memorial Academy and Collegedale Academy for High School(In the late 1970's).I remained an Adventist and believed I was called to be an Adventist minister until about thirteen (13) years ago. At that time God brought me to the truth about His Word as the only authority for truth (sola scriptura).I never had any negative experiences in the Adventist church and I love the memories I have of sabbath school outings and Pathfinders and Academy life in the dorms. It isn't with the people that I have a problem. It is with the doctrines that are either non-biblical or those which undermind the sovereign grace of God in salvation.It is my conviction that most knowledgable Adventists of the Bible are more interested in advancing the Adventist messages than they are propagating the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I now have been set free by the truth of Jesus my "rest". He is my "Sabbath". In Him, Jeff | ||
| Clay Registered user Username: Clay Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2002 |
I would have to say that my Sabbath-rest in Christ has become the most important part of my spiritual journey. The reason is because it is every day, all day. As Hebrews 3 says, "as long as it is called today". I believe Jesus is talking about the same "rest" in Math.11:28-30. We have been going through some stressful times lately trying to buy a house and selling the one we now have. A few years ago we would have been very stressed about it but we claim the promise in Math. and just have given it to Jesus and choosen to stay yoked with Him and I can't describe for you how we have experienced such peace. The rest that Jesus Christ provides us is so complete and it includes: rest in Him for our salvation, rest in Him for our daily needs when we have choosen to live only for Him, and rest in His Holy Spirit to produce any changes in our character that is needed since it is only the Holy Spirit that produces the fruit of the spirit. The 7th-day Sabbath rest that God gave to Israel was mainly to help Israel realize that they could rest completely in God's provision and guidance. All they had to do is look back and see how He had lead them so faithfully. Unfortaunately they totally missed the point and continued in their murmering and unbelief. Yes I have found also that there are many Sunday worshiping Christians who have no concept of the Sabbaath rest in Christ. It is sad because as I see it this is the very core of Christianity. I am so happy to hear the Holy Spirit is revealing this precious truth to honest seekers all around the world. I have recently completed reading the three books by Sam Pestes in his series called "Abraham-Messenger to the 21st century". They are powerful and help one see the big picture of the OC and NC. They go along so well with "Sabbath in Christ" by Ratzlaff. Sam's website is www.abrtaham911.com Blessings to all. Clay from the North | ||
| Clay Registered user Username: Clay Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sorry, that website for Sam Pestes is www.abraham911.com. My editing leaves something to be desired. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2004 |
Brother Clay, You are so right. The understanding that you have of the sabbath is paramount to the Christian walk, yet it is seldomly taught. I had an interesting conversation with my mother (an avid Adventist) over the holidays and I have come to the conclusion that trying to talk about the truth of the sabbath with an Adventist is much like describing the color orange to a blind man. It is only God who can reveal truth to any of us. In Him, Jeff | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
It¥s nice to have you with us, Jeff. Welcome. I¥not the "rookie" anymore!  Leigh, I don¥t live near artic circle. From my town it¥s 900 km to artic circle so we here in southern Finland have sunrises and sunsets all year round. Although in midwinter sunset is around 3.00 pm and in midsummer sunset is 10-11 pm. You can imagine how difficult it¥s to an Adventist in wintertime to do everything ready in time for Sabbath. My friend (former SDA) said to me after we changed opionions and views about true Sabbath that we think quite same way but in certain point we go to different paths. He thinks you have to keep Sabbath and he had picked 40 verses to support his vision, Sabbath is eternal law and so are ten commandments. And me...well, you know my view about Sabbath and our commandments are: love God and love your neighbor. He¥s conclusion is that he afraids being lawless and I¥m afraid being loveless. I point out the love in all and that¥s something he doesn¥t see. That obey law is easier than obey love. I talked to my sister last night and we both agreed that people how sincere they are loving Christ are still afraid of just yield to Christ. It¥s too simple to be true. In His lap Tuija | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2003 |
Welcome Jeff. I attended Southern College in the mid '80's. (I sometimes wonder how many other Southern alumni or attendees visit this site.) Tuija, my sister and I were discussing something similar last night about yielding to Christ. I have a question for everyone. Quite a few of us have lots of family and friends who are sda who sincerely love the Lord, want to do his will, and are thankful for Jesus, but almost have a subconscience "just in case" mentality when it comes to keeping the Sabbath, the health message, jewelery, heeding egw counsel. Is this something that will cause them to lose their salvation, because they can't fully surrender their own filthy rags to fully accept the robe of Christ's righteousness or is it that even though they are saved(John 3:16), they won't experience HIS complete REST here and now in this life that Christ has offered to us? As for me, I would rather side with Grace and put my trust in the Lord for my salvation, than err on the side of Legalism, and put my trust in myself for salvation. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 454 Registered: 3-2001 |
Leigh, It is hard to believe that someone could actually understand Grace, and still reject it in favor of the ministry of condemnation. I really like Jeff's analogy that explaiing the Sabbath (Grace) to an Adventist (or any legalist for that matter) is like describing the color orange to a blind man. I believe we don't have to go any further than the Apostle Paul to receive an answer to your question. In Galatians 1, he says:
God has to see fit to reveal his Grace (and the truth of Jesus as the Sabbath) to our friends and family. Until he does so, we are like tinkling brass and clashing cymbals. They simply cannot understand us. The veil remains over their eyes. However, remember that in Acts, that God winks at our ignorance until such time as He reveals the Truth to us. The most important thing for us to realize is that God is sovereign, and that his ways are not our ways. It is not His desire that anyone should perish, however His methods do not always make sense to us. Just look at the way that he set the Children of Israel apart as His chosen people, so that in the fullness of time he could make known his imcomparable grace to the Gentiles. It makes no sense that he let me languish in Adventism for 40 years before he revealed His grace to me. However, I have to trust that His ways are higher than my ways. His word will not return unto Him void. I have to trust that He has my best interest at heart. My new favorite texts is Jeremiah 29:11:
Those are comforting words indeed. I can be confident that God is even more interested in my friends and family's wellbeing than I am. They still have the freedom of choice to accept or reject, but I know that He does not give up easily. I now know why the Judgement will be such a sad day. No one will be lost who did not have every opportunity to be saved. Sorry for rambling. I am putting my trust in God for my family and friends, although I take every opportunity I can to share the good news, in hope that He will use me to help remove the veil. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Jeff! We're glad you're here. Doug, I completely agree with you. I can't know whether or not Adventists who profess Christ are saved or not. I have to believe that anyone who sincerely accepts Jesus as their ransom for sin will be saved. The question is whether or not people truly surrender to him in full acceptance. God knows their hearts. The parable of the sower and the seeds in Matthew 13 has been helpful to me in understanding how people could profess Christ but not put down roots in him. I do believe that God leads us always toward himself and toward truth when we are open to him. I know that for myself, the desire to cling to the Sabbath "just in case" was powerful. It became an issue of whether or not I was really going to trust Jesus and let everything else go, or whether I was going to hedge my bets. I finally realized that hedgin my bets was, in fact, unbelief, and it was a passive way of refusing to abandon all and walk through the door of freedom and grace that Jesus was holding open in front of me. As long as I clung to the Sabbath even though I believed it wasn't a salvation issue, I wasn't surrendering myself to the all-sufficiency of Jesus. I was holding onto law and works. We can't know, I think, about our loved ones who are in that "just-in-case" position. God will work with them in completely unique ways tailor-made for them. We can, though, continue to pray for them. Praise God for holding us in his hands in an eternal grip! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2003 |
Leigh, B went to southern college...in the mid-late 80s. Don't know how big the place is.... Clay, I wanted to thank you for the great 2-sermon series you have on tape about the Sabbath that I got from LAM. They affirmed a studied I had previously done, but the SDA in my life told me I was mis-reading, misapplying the scriptures. God really used them to turn a big corner for me. And I agree with you Tuija, it is far easier to keep some rules than to truly love. One deals with outside actions and doesn't touch who we really are inside. The other requires a heart change and as we grow in love for God, we grow naturally in love for others. It's not forced or fake, but genuine love. I have the same question as you Leigh and have asked many of my "knowledgeable" friends. It seems that the scripture says if you lean on yourself in any way, you void grace. Does that mean that even if they've added a bunch of other stuff to grace that the grace is voided? I wish I knew the answer. It would be easier to let SDAs go to their own paths if there weren't the concern that they truly do not have a saving knowledge of Christ, just a head knowledge as the demons do. Jeff, welcome and I love the color orange analogy. That is so true! And to your first post, as I tried to find people who knew what SDAs believed when I first met one, I couldn't find anyone. And I have Christian friends from a variety of denominations and faith practices, but not one knew their teachings. The one who did know a person who was SDA just thought they were legalistic and strict, but still "orthodox" as you say. And it's hard to explain in a few soundbites the depth of the issues to generate any real interest. The words they use are subtle and deceptive to the untrained mind. I was mislead for a number of years, and though there was something that never sat well, I just could never put my finger on it. The SDA in my life said I was just looking for things to pick at and they were personality issues, not issues of doctrine "really". I went through a period of intense prayer and God would wake me up at the oddest times and have me looking up passages in scripture. Once I read much of exodus 18 on and Deuteronomy 5 on starting around 2 am...cuz that's when God spoke to me. After I read it, I laughed out loud at what become so obviously misapplied by B, but as Thomas pointed out above, B wasn't interested in my Biblical perspectives genuinely, he just wanted to argue with me. So, though I presented him my own novels of explanation, he discarded them all by saying they were out of context or not applied correctly. It's like trying to find a verse to prove you should worship on Sunday...try to find one that says you can't. But as the topic of this thread is named, they (and many of us non-SDAs) don't comprehend what Christ meant when he said come unto me and I will give you rest. Even though I quoted that verse to the SDA I know and even said Christ is our rest just as he is our passover lamb, it has only been through the discussions and testimonies here that I have been able to develop and fully expand that understanding. It just has not been a fully developed teaching in the churches I've been in. Last night (at church) we were talking about the Old Covenant and how as God moved from Exodus and Leviticus, which was really a listing of the laws, to conversations using covenant talk in Deuteronomy, you are my covenant people and we have a covenant between us...and though they come back to God in hard times, they always turned away when times got better. He also was showing how the Israelites are the ones who put a "priest" between themselves and God when they were too scared to meet him on the mountain and put Moses between them. He said until the death of Christ, the priests had to act for them, but at the death of Christ, we are now all priests ourselves (as Hebrews talks about). We can go face to face on our own. Though he didn't go this far (it was out of the context of the lesson), I could see how the New Covenant is not a covenant between me and God as the Old Covenant was between Israel and God, it was between God and Christ, and therefore as a gift to me without me "doing" anything. I'm so thankful that Christ is our covenant keeper in the New Covenant and that we reap the benefits of his perfection and sufficiency to keep that covenant for us. And I'm with Leigh...I'm not interested in anything that will void the gift of grace in my life! For those of you that have this greater understanding of Sabbath-rest in Christ...how do you share it with those you worship with now and can they comprehend what you are talking about since I'm sure many of them never gave a thought to the "when" of worship? | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2002 |
Welcome brother Jeff. Wow praise God again and again for bring us to his true grace. I love what you said about the colr and Blind man. That was so great. So did you become a pastor? Were you preaching when you saw the truth? We all love to hear each others stories. Well glad to have you here. |
