| Author | Message | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. To address Terryk's question, I never became an Adventist Pastor. I had the passion and the drive, but God, saw another path He wanted for my life. My conversion to the truth was brought about as God taught me of His sovereignty in the plan of salvation. As I would study the matter further from His word I began to see the gap, of truth from fiction, widen with my Adventist faith. I began to see also that my association with the SDA church was in violation of Godís Word in that we had an authority other than the Scriptures alone as divinely inspired (God-breathed). The Holy Spirit began to bring me under tremendous conviction to lead my family to a church that taught as I felt the Bible teaches. I must admit that it is wonderful to have a fellowship, such as we have here, where brothers and sisters in Christ can meet and share, who have come out of Adventism. The departure from an Adventist family, as a primary group and strong, interpersonal relationships with an Adventist community as a secondary group is very hard to deal with both psychologically and socially. These are people that I love very much. The moment you let them know that you are no longer in the Adventist Church you are marked as one to be pitied. Not a believer! Then begins the ensuing questions about Sunday-keeping, State of the dead, and Lordís return with nothing you say or show from the Scripture merits worth to them. Again Thank You ALL for the warm welcome. Jeff | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome Jeff. How long has it been since you left the Adventist church? If you've already said, I apologize for missing it. I was just reading and relating to what you wrote about being pitied and thought of as a 'non-believer'. I very recently have left the Adventist church and the responses have been amazing. With a couple of open minded exceptions, no matter what you tell them they refuse to believe anything other than you're leaving because of personal differences. They won't acknowledge that you have found truth beyond their doctrine. I know they have pity on my lost soul and are praying for me constantly. But I have a joy that I've never before experienced and it far outweighs the trauma of leaving. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2003 |
Doug, I liked what you said about God being more interested in my family and friends' well being, than I am. And the text from Jeremiah, that is comforting. I guess that I need to: Be perservering in prayer: "Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should pray and not give up." Luke 18:1 Be patient: "Wait for the Lord, be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord." Ps. 27:14 and let go: "Cast all your care upon him; for he cares for you." I Peter 5:7 Because like you said, Doug, "I have to trust that His ways are higher than my ways." The pastor at the church we have been attending is having a great series of sermons on persistence and perserverence in prayer. I learned a new word "importunity" (persistence in solicitation). He had a quote from Charles Spurgeon regarding the parable of the persistent widow in Luke 18: "Now if the widow prevailed over such a wretch as this, if the iron of her importunity broke the iron and steel of this manís obduracy, how much more may we expect to be successful with him who is righteous, and just and good, the Friend of the needy, the Father of the fatherless, and the Avenger of all such as are oppressed! Oí let the character of God as it rises before you in all its majesty of truthfulness and faithfulness, blended with loving kindness, and tenderness, and mercy, excite in you ( a joyful hope and faith that you will receive your answer.)" Spurgeon | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thank you for your kind words, Spokenfor. I left the Adventist church in 1992. I agree with you on all of your points with one exception. Let me state it in a riddle. "What do the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and a doctrinally open-minded Seventh-Day Adventist have in common?" Answer: They don't exist! Obviously I'm joking. I'm sure that there are some. It would be an "Amazing Fact" if I met one. In Christ, Jeff | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeff you are right - they generally don't exist! The exceptions I refer to have surprised me thus far in their reactions. They are not really dyed in the wool and seem to think that those searching for God will always be learning more about him and the truth of his word - thus they are sort of open to new ideas though I do wonder how far they would be willing to take those ideas. Time will tell. Perhaps they have doubts of their own and just haven't explored them yet. Don't know but they have been more willing to listen to what I have to say than to try to re-convince me of what I have abandoned. However, for every open mind that I've come across in Adventism, I have found at least a hundred closed ones. | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh, I forgot to thank you for the study information. I will look for it. Do you still homeschool your children? | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2004 |
Leigh, When I was at Collegedale Academy (1978) the college was called Southern Missionary College. I actually lived in Cleveland, Tenn. I never attended SMC. I did my undergradate and graduate work at a secular universities. Are you from that area? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2003 |
Spokenfor, you're right about the possibility that the "open-minded" ones might be questioning on their own but just don't know yet how close they are to finding truth. Of course, some of the "open-minded" ones here in So. Cal are so far from really believing in Jesus that they might not qualify as Christians. One particularly liberal Adventist recently told Richard that Richard was still really an Adventist--and that, truly, the people at our church are also Adventists. Adventist, according to him and his peers, simply means believing Jesus is coming back. The Adventist umbrella, they say, is big enough to shelter extreme doctrinal differences. Their view is really quite close to universalism. On the other hand, I remember about a year before we became convicted regarding the truth about Adventism. We were heavily involved in New Testament Bible study with our neighbors, and we were astonished at the things the Bible said which Adventism either did not teach or outright opposed. During that time, a dear friend of mine called and said she and her husband had decided to leave the church officially. I still remember the shock I felt, but I was oh-so-supportive. I told her I understood her position, I explained why I felt [then] that I wanted to stay, but I completely supported and "understood" her move. I'll never forget Richard discussing it with me. He was not able to comprehend that they would leave the Sabbath, and I blithely and ignorantly told him that I suspected they would come back to it. They had to leave, I informed him, because they had to heal from their wounds connected to the church (she was a pastor's daughter; he was the grandson of famous SDA missionaries). They wouldn't be able to permanently leave the Sabbath, I said, because they were honestly seeking God's will. This would just be for a time. Imagine my embarrassment and sudden understanding when, about a year later, we decided we would also have to leave. The Sabbath, after all, was JESUS! You never know what spiritual road people may be walking. Open-mindedness may mean the person is seriously seeking truth, or it may simply mean they've rationalized away the concept of Jesus as the only way to God. I am so thankful for Jesus and his word! Colleen | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2004 |
You remember my first letter here where I told about the letter to SDA pastor. I had it finished and I was right, total pagenumber was 30. But I just couldn¥t cut anything from it. I stuffed it in an envelope and when I dropped it in a mailbox it thumped like a bomb on the bottom. Weighty message. I don¥t know if he is open-minded or not and I¥m not very interested what he thinks about my letter. I just had to say all it and now it¥s done. Then I got a letter from Finnish SDA church and they said because I resigned from the local church maybe I want to resign from the main church as well. And the next sentence made my hair going up: "And WHEN you come back, you are heartily welcome." WHEN! So they are sure I realize sometimes later that I¥m doomed and come back with my tail between my legs and beg mercy. Argh! I¥m going to write a letter to that secretary, too, and tell her I¥m NEVER coming back ¥cause I finally found Jesus and if I go back I¥m going to lose Him again. You guys discussed about open-minded Adventists and I agree with Jeff that they don¥t really exists. If there were, SDA church would has been changed already at least for some parts. But they cling those doctrines like terriers and don¥t want to change a bit. You know that religion is power and with power, authority, you can control people. Everyone who has enough charisma, prestige and adds to his/hers speech word "God" controls many believers by fright. They make believers to believe that if they don¥t do as the Great Preacher tells they are doomed. Bunch of those charismatic people together make up rules and regulations and of course find suitable verses from Bible. That¥s doctrine and because "God have given it" nobody dares to think if it¥s really ok. So there exists many really weird religions. SDA is one of them. And believers are afraid to suspect those doctrines outloud and in public because they are afraid they would be banned and banished from the congregation. And some believers just float among with others and never contradict anything. They just swallow everything without biting. I think Jesus gave us an example. He contradicted and made priests to think what they are teaching. We must do the same. That¥s the only way to get them think. If we just float and be quiet they think they are superior and true representatives of Christ. I come with you again in Monday. Have a nice and blessed weekend. Tuija | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2004 |
There¥s one "dangerous" verse those church leaders willingly use. It¥s Matt. 18:17-18. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Oh boy how eagerly denomination church leaders here use it. In Finland exists one very fundamentalistic denomination which parted from lutheran. I don¥t know how to translate their name in english but they think they are the remnant church and the only ones that are saved (of course). They put a hand onto sinners head and preach his/hers sin is forgiven. They use those verses particularly eagerly. And SDA pastor said those verses to my friend, too, when they expelled him. I would be very careful to say those Matt. 18:17-18 verses because I really don¥t know what it really means. Do you know? | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff you are just a hoot. You have given me two new things to ralate to with the SDA church. I was talking with my friend who saved my life by making me question and search the Bible. Anyway we were talking about being with our old SDA friends which are really nonexistant. The only ones who are nice are praying that you will come back you are really ost because we knew the truth we are worse off then the other people who do not know about the sabbath. It is so sad how we were so brainwashed. I also received a letter from my pastor that went along the same lines as you Hallanvaara as when I come to my senses that they wuill gladly take me back. Yes that did make me mad. Once again Jeff's saying is so true its like teaching a blind man about the color orange. I too was once just like them thinking people were lost whe trading in sabbath for sunday I just could not understand. Well it is good to have others to share all this with. Jeff you were right again about it really effects you in all aspects of your life when you leave. It even makes you at first question any choice you make thinking is this right or wrong I have been fooled once can I rely on my choices any more. Thank God through time you do get over some but I think I never will be right. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hey Again, My heart was broken the other evening when my mother wouldn't even acknowledge the purpose of the sabbath, clearly outlined in Deuteronomy 5:15 " And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day." The word "therefore" is indicative to the primacy of God's point in this sabbath commandment. She simply would not accept this passage of Scripture. She looked at me with a blank stare, while shaking her head in disbelief that I would disagree with her view which she raised me to believe. I trust God to teach truth. It is only by His sovereign hand that I ever came to this truth. | ||
| Rochelleradclif Registered user Username: Rochelleradclif Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2003 |
Thanks to all of you FAF members for sharing about Jesus being our Sabbath rest. It has been a great encouragement to me to read your stories. I remember when I first left the Adventist religion how some of my friends and family members seemed to accept my decision, but later I realized they were expecting me to return to Sabbath keeping. A couple of years ago I asked three of my Adventist friends at work what they thought would happen to them if they were to no longer keep the Sabbath. One friend told me that she believed she could go to heaven even if she didn't attend church on Saturday, but that she remained Adventist because she felt keeping the Sabbath was biblical. The second friend told me she believed she would be lost if she didn't keep the Sabbath and that she would not go to heaven. The third friend engaged me in an hour conversation trying to avoid answering my question. I think she does believe failing to keep Sabbath would cause her to lose her salvation, but it seems that she wanted to avoid saying that to me because she might be seen as telling me that I am lost because I no longer keep Sabbath. I like to say that the reason I don't observe Saturday Sabbath is because I'm letting Jesus keep me instead. He is doing a much better job of keeping me in His Kingdom than the Sabbath ever did trying to get me into His Kingdom. When I answer this way the arguments don't come up and it gets Adventist people thinking. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2001 |
This is a great article/study I found from the World Wide Church of God, not sure where I found it but I'll look and see if I can find the webpage: The author of Hebrews must have realized as he wrote that, on the surface, there had been an apparent large-scale exception to his claim that no people had ever entered a "rest" of God. After all, the second generation of Israelites who were saved from Egypt did enter the Promised Land under Joshua. We read that under Joshua "the Lord had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them" (Joshua 23:1). But the writer of Hebrews quickly points out that this is not the kind of "rest" he has in mind, or one that constituted Godís ultimate objectiveóthe "rest" promised to Christians. Hundreds of years after Joshua led the Israelites into the rest of the Promised Land, the Psalmist urged people to enter a divine rest, and later still, the author of Hebrews was insisting that there is a "rest" its readers must yet enter into. Clearly, there is more to the "rest" in question than mere entry into Canaan. Hebrews tells us: "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God" (4:8-9). As it turns out, Israel had not secured the true "rest" after all. Thus, the writer can exhort his readers to seek, obtain and hold on to this superior "rest" in Christ. This is the true "rest" to which Genesis 2:2-3, the literal Sabbath, the other festival rests, the Wilderness experience, the Joshua rest, and the prophecy of Psalm 95 all looked forward to. He is interested in the redemptive and eternal rest in the kingdom of God, of which the weekly Sabbath and Canaan rests were but symbols. William Lane, in the Hebrews commentary in the Word Biblical Commentary, explains why the Joshua rest was but a type of the true "rest": The settlement of Canaan did not mark the fulfillment of the divine promise but pointed to another, more fundamental reality. If in fact Joshua had achieved the promised rest, there would have been no need for the renewal of the promise in Ps 95. Accordingly, the experience of rest in Canaan was only a type or symbol of the complete rest that God intended for his people, which was prefigured in the Sabbath rest of God [page 101]. We have now come from Genesis 2:2-3 to Hebrews 4:9-11, and we see something interesting. The author is not telling his readers to keep a weekly seventh-day Sabbath holy by resting on it. He is not talking about the weekly Sabbath at all. Rather, he is making the point that there is a spiritual "rest" that Godís people should be entering into. It is the heavenly counterpart of the earthly Canaan, and this is the goal of the people of God todayóto achieve this present and eternal rest. The epistle of Hebrews has made this point by creating an analogy between the Israelites entering the Promised Land and Christians entering the better promise of a new-covenant spiritual "rest." A present "rest"? The Promised Land was a physical type or foreshadowing of a spiritual "rest" that the Israelites had not yet entered. And the weekly Sabbath was a temporal foreshadowing of the spiritual "rest" that God wants his people to enjoy. Christians have entered Godís "rest" by their faith in Jesus Christ. "Now we who have believed enter [or, "are entering"] that rest," the writer insists (4:3). Christians have the real rest, the spiritual rest, and do not need to observe shadows of it, neither geographically nor temporally. Jesus himself during his ministry had promised a rest for the spirit: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls (Matthew 11:28-29). Leon Morris points out in The Expositorís Bible Commentary that the word for "enter" in Hebrews 4:3 is in the present tense. This would mean the author of Hebrews was suggesting that his readers were already in the process of entering the "rest" of salvation that Jesus had promised. Some commentators agree that the Hebrews 4:3 "rest" into which Christians have entered begins now, in this life. Leon Morris quotes Hugh Montefiore on this point: Contrary to some commentators, the Greek means neither that they are certain to enter, nor that they will enter, but that they are already in process of entering The author of Hebrews must have realized as he wrote that, on the surface, there had been an apparent large-scale exception to his claim that no people had ever entered a "rest" of God. After all, the second generation of Israelites who were saved from Egypt did enter the Promised Land under Joshua. We read that under Joshua "the Lord had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them" (Joshua 23:1). But the writer of Hebrews quickly points out that this is not the kind of "rest" he has in mind, or one that constituted Godís ultimate objectiveóthe "rest" promised to Christians. Hundreds of years after Joshua led the Israelites into the rest of the Promised Land, the Psalmist urged people to enter a divine rest, and later still, the author of Hebrews was insisting that there is a "rest" its readers must yet enter into. Clearly, there is more to the "rest" in question than mere entry into Canaan. Hebrews tells us: "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God" (4:8-9). As it turns out, Israel had not secured the true "rest" after all. Thus, the writer can exhort his readers to seek, obtain and hold on to this superior "rest" in Christ. This is the true "rest" to which Genesis 2:2-3, the literal Sabbath, the other festival rests, the Wilderness experience, the Joshua rest, and the prophecy of Psalm 95 all looked forward to. He is interested in the redemptive and eternal rest in the kingdom of God, of which the weekly Sabbath and Canaan rests were but symbols. William Lane, in the Hebrews commentary in the Word Biblical Commentary, explains why the Joshua rest was but a type of the true "rest": The settlement of Canaan did not mark the fulfillment of the divine promise but pointed to another, more fundamental reality. If in fact Joshua had achieved the promised rest, there would have been no need for the renewal of the promise in Ps 95. Accordingly, the experience of rest in Canaan was only a type or symbol of the complete rest that God intended for his people, which was prefigured in the Sabbath rest of God [page 101]. We have now come from Genesis 2:2-3 to Hebrews 4:9-11, and we see something interesting. The author is not telling his readers to keep a weekly seventh-day Sabbath holy by resting on it. He is not talking about the weekly Sabbath at all. Rather, he is making the point that there is a spiritual "rest" that Godís people should be entering into. It is the heavenly counterpart of the earthly Canaan, and this is the goal of the people of God todayóto achieve this present and eternal rest. The epistle of Hebrews has made this point by creating an analogy between the Israelites entering the Promised Land and Christians entering the better promise of a new-covenant spiritual "rest." A present "rest"? The Promised Land was a physical type or foreshadowing of a spiritual "rest" that the Israelites had not yet entered. And the weekly Sabbath was a temporal foreshadowing of the spiritual "rest" that God wants his people to enjoy. Christians have entered Godís "rest" by their faith in Jesus Christ. "Now we who have believed enter [or, "are entering"] that rest," the writer insists (4:3). Christians have the real rest, the spiritual rest, and do not need to observe shadows of it, neither geographically nor temporally. Jesus himself during his ministry had promised a rest for the spirit: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls (Matthew 11:28-29). Leon Morris points out in The Expositorís Bible Commentary that the word for "enter" in Hebrews 4:3 is in the present tense. This would mean the author of Hebrews was suggesting that his readers were already in the process of entering the "rest" of salvation that Jesus had promised. Some commentators agree that the Hebrews 4:3 "rest" into which Christians have entered begins now, in this life. Leon Morris quotes Hugh Montefiore on this point: Contrary to some commentators, the Greek means neither that they are certain to enter, nor that they will enter, but that they are already in process. by Paul Kroll | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Spokenfor, I am still homeschooling. I went ahead in the study to see what was said about the 10 commandments. In the section about the 4th commandment there is a note in the margin about how to respond to sda's! They didn't go into Jesus as our Sabbath rest, but they did emphasize that we are not saved by keeping the 10 commandments. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 484 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just in yesterdays mail I got my book by Mr. Ratzlaff called, "Jesus as Sabbath". I started reading it last night. Even as a kid I would question the adult sda kin about how come we had to be so careful what we did and didn't do when "keeping" the Sabbath because Jesus said,"all who are weary and heavy hearted come to me and I will give you rest". The only real answer I have ever gotten from my sda kin is that Jesus gives us our spiritual rest but God in His infinite wisdom knew from the moment He first created Adam that people needed physical rest too and so "keeping Sabbath" is for our physical rest. That answer always seemed corney to me because every person I have ever known when they get tired or exhausted they rest. People don't just keep going and going like the Energizer Bunny, rest is built into their very core. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2000 |
BOOK REVIEW Michael Morrison wrote an excellent book titled, "SABBATH, CIRCUMCISION, AND TITHING: Which Old Testament Laws Apply to Christians?" Mike is a doctoral candidate at Fuller Theological Seminary. I wholeheartedly recommend this book for your personal library. Truly, this book makes an outstanding, Christ-centered addition to any Christian bookshelf (288 pages). To obtain, simply log unto: http://mm91007.tripod.com/ or email Mike directly at: mm91007@mail2world.com (quantity discounts are available). Happy reading, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yeah, Susan, that physical rest one really gets me...like we work, work, work for 6 days with out a rest and then, finally we rest. Puhleeaze, we rest every night don't we? They just don't get any spiritual applications unless it is something in the bible that obviously opposes their doctrine, then THAT is to be interpreted spiritually (in other words-twisted). | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 184 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeff, Iím so sorry you have not had much success with your mother. The response I got when sharing Deut 5 was ìthat is not the lawî. I came to realize that Exodus 20:3-end is considered to be of higher importance and significance than any other scripture passage. Given that, no other scripture can really be used to explain the 10 except that it continues to support the 10. It reminds me of geometry. There is a ìgivenî in the problem. And you canít disprove that given. You have to resolve the problem so that the given is not only supported, but becomes part of the solution to the problem. Then itís a forest through the trees problem. I know that many people on this forum have far more intimate experiences with the experience youíve had. You arenít alone ... many of us hurt for people we care for who donít recognize the truth in scripture alone. | ||
| Barbsigirl Registered user Username: Barbsigirl Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi everyone, I am new, and have been reading your posts for a while. I have not left yet,I was born and raised SDA "hardcore". I couldn't wait to rebel and I did in academy, college and 20's. But came back with a more open mind after I had kids. I wanted to teach them the "truth". After my adventist husband left me for another woman, I married a baptist. I remained committed to the Sabbath, and thought nothing would shake me. He is very understanding and patient about my belief system. About 8 years later I suddenly had the desire to start studying other weird religions to see what they were all about. The first book I bought was "Kingdom of the Cults" and got through the Jehovah's Witnesses and the "Puzzle of SDA's". That was so interesting and had so many similarities! Maybe God was leading me, but then at the Baptist church they had a guest speaker, Ron Carlson, who has authored books on cultic religions. It was so interesting. None on SDA's but I spoke with him and he directed me to the website sdaoutreach.org and the rest is history. I remember the fear I felt in even questioning the great Ellen, who had been the source for everything we did or ate in our home. One of the main things that got me was reading about the fanaticism of the Millerites and those that couldn't give up on that. Then reading some of the pioneer letters to Ellen from Kellogg and especially A.T. Jones. He was so sincere and so unbelieving of her lies at his expense! Anyway, even through all I had read and studied, I have my 81 year old staunch adventist mother living with me for a while, and I cannot bring myself to hurt her with all of this. All I can think of is she will think what I used to think....that if someone gives up adventism they are doomed to hell! I still am not yet experiencing the joy that comes from knowing I am saved. I have been robbed of that, and don't know how to erase the old tapes. I just wanted to share. Reading your posts is very encouraging! |
