| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hoytster, I understand your feeling of being let down. One of the things that has begun to change my view of reality more than anything else since I've begun to really study the Bible is a growing awareness of God's sovereignty over all creation. Two or three years ago I remember hearing Elizabeth Inrig, our women's ministry leader, say something in a Sunday morning Old Testament class. What she said was something like this: God is the ultimate "value" in the universe. The ultimate value is not the life of a child, the saving of nations, or a person's life; rather, it is God. That idea really runs counter to the way most of us think--especially those of us who have not had a really high view of scripture or of God himself. Further, such a view appears cruel, malicious, and self-serving to a person who has not personally experienced the miracle of the new birth and the deep witness of the Holy Spirit with our spirits that we are God's children and eternally secure. I have also asked questions similar to yours. In fact, I've asked questions about my own kids' early life; I've wondered why God didn't seem to protect them from situations that hurt them and left them bearing wounds (as we all do, by the way). I've begun to come to terms with some things over the years. First, God sees all of reality, not only the part we can see. Reality is much bigger than the events of which we're aware. He knows the plans he has for each person before his or her birth. God knows how he plans to redeem the pain in each of our lives in order to help us grow in grace, wisdom and trust in him. Second, we are born spiritually dead into a spiritually fallen world. Evil is our birthright. When we accept Jesus and are born again, life becomes our birthright. The fact that we are born into sin and in a fallen world, however, means that evil will touch us, often with absolutely no choice on our part. I'm thinking, for example, of a young friend I have who has been a believer since the age of 12, but she endured persistent and severe abuse in her family until she finally checked herself into a hospital for help at the age of 18. It's been several years now since then, and she is still recovering. God is transforming her wounds into deep inisght, compassion, and intuition about the hidden pain in others' lives. She is, as I said, still healing and still learning more and more things God is asking her to KNOW and to accept as part of the reality of her life, but the more she's willing to know, the stronger and the more engaged with life she becomes. She says that Jesus is a HUGE part of her recovery. We cannot stop evil from touching us or our loved ones. We can pray for their protection, but ultimately the promises God has made to us are not that he will protect us from all physically and emotional harm. Rather, he promises HIMSELF, his very presence with us. He promises to protect our souls no matter what when we belong to him. It's true that he often does provide physical protection as well, but the reality of evil in the world means that evil will touch all of us in different ways. The miracle is that Jesus can keep those attacks from destorying our souls and making us bitter and angry or withdrawn and mentally ill. Third, I'm also learning that God does not necessarily undo the results of our own choices. The fact of my divorce from my first husband has permanently marked me in many ways, and God does not rescue us from our pain when we reap the results of our own choices. I've no idea what choices you've made in your own life, Hoytster, but those choices will undoubtedly create some negative fallout, and that fallout God will not necessarily mitigate. Even when that fallout hurts those we love, that's part of the natural consequence of our ability to choose. God does not change the natural results of all of our choices. What I'm learning is that he can REDEEM those often painful results, both in my life and in those of the people I love. The prayer I'm learning to pray (after I tell God what I really wish he would do!) is that God will redeem my wounds, heal the wounds in the hearts of those I love, and protect my loved ones from evil and deception. I pray that God will reveal himself to me and to others in ways that will be unmistakable, and that my loved ones will find him, surrender to him, and be safe in him. I also am learning to pray that God will show me what I need to surrender to him for my own growth and for my increased trust in him. Ultimately, God wants to glorify himself through each of us and through all he does. He already knows more about the reality of those children you love than you know yourself. He already knows the plans he has for them. He knows how they're being hurt and how he wants to heal them. Ask God to help you entrust those children totally into God's hands, Hoytster, and to heal your own heart of the feelings you may have of failing them. Ask him to redeem your own mistakes not only in your life but also in the lives of those children so that this wounding will make them people of strength and faith and trust. Ask God to enter the places of grief and emptiness in your own heart and to heal them. Ask him to help you to be willing to know the truth he wants you to know and to help you to grow and to let him make you a person of deepening integrity and constancy. Ask God to be your strength and your Savior and your peace. And let his Spirit pour God's love into your heart. My prayers for you continue. Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I think the hardest thing about life is not understanding why the sovereign allows the things he does. It is hard to hear platitudes, even if it is scripture, and accept that is my fate. Though I can realize theoretically that this life is the temporary and eternity is, well, eternal, it's hard to hope for death to see improvement. I remember people telling me I must be really strong for God to have allowed my daughter to be retarded ... which ultimately said that my "reward" for my strength was a curse upon my child. Well, where's the logic in that. Another twist is that since children are a reward from God and my child is "broke", God doesn't think too much of me to give me a "defective" reward. I know it sounds like a downer and I used to be "optimistic". Now, I consider myself a realist. The rain falls on the good and the bad and only God can see the whole forest beyond the trees. Who will ever know WHY things happen as they do? Maybe we will sometimes. Maybe we won't. God asks us to be faithful. When I've tried to "fix" it myself is when things have usually gotten much worse. Do I feel helpless...yep. But I know with my head, even if I can't see it in my situation, that God is faithful. I may be helpless, but I'm not hopeless. I have to hold on to my logic over my emotions ... and that's hard. When I'm talking theoretically like now, it's so easy to say. But I know how hard it is to stand in the midst of the loss and say "not my will, but thy will be done." And I've gotten angry at God. It just doesn't seem fair in my mind. But I always have to touch back to the basics...where is my faith anyway? Sometimes I have to remind myself DAILY and choose again to be faithful each day. Sometimes it's by rote. But I cling to my faith when everything else is gone. The plain simple truth of it is our prize is at the end of the race, not during. When I feel my words bounce off the ceiling, I know the Spirit is there turning my groanings into words before God. And if I can't see it today, I know in a day or two or three or whatever, I will again come through the storm. The debris may be scattered all over the state but you pick up one piece at a time. Or learn to live with the clutter ... which seems to hide the addition of new debris. Hang on ... I do know God is faithful even when he has not answered our prayers as we had hoped he would. Share your discouragement. You are not alone at all. If the only thing I have gained by my losses is the ability to encourage someone else that the sun will come up again some day, that's what I want to do. You are not alone. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
I know just how you feel Hoytster, and you will be in my prayers. A similar thing happened a few years back with my husband & I. His daughter was begging him to get custody so she could live with us. Her home with her mom & step-dad was filled with fighting and unrest. We were certain God would want her in our Christian home. My husband and I had such peace just before going before the judge, and we prayed together outside the courtroom. Well, not only did we not get custody, but the judge raised the child support and cut back on the days we were allowed to have my step-daughter. What a blow!!! We also wondered where God was, why He had seemingly let us down. There is still so much we don't understand, but He is faithful, and will never leave us. I will hold you up in prayer. Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
I would like to say the same thing happened with my husbands son from his first marriage. I had the same soncerns about why God did not help in this situation. The judge actually said it was more important for the son to play sports then it was for him to be with his dad. The x would lie and break all agreements nothing ever happened and many things happened to us. I am reading a book now about this same issue how and why we have these qrrows in our lives and why God did not stop them. I will let you know if it answers any questions. Colleen touched on some of the same answers in her earlier post. That was pretty cool to be reading about this and then have you answer the same answers. God knows the bigger picture. Thanks all for your prayers and support. | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
This may be a little after the fact, but the book we read growing up that explained the great controversy was called "Margie Asks Why". It was still available within the last five years, so this may be what she is reading. It is for the 9-12 year old range. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I remember that book.........eeew | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Thanks so much! I found it at http://www.deafadventist.org/maw.htm. I'm not ignoring all the comments that you all posted to my "God let me down" post. I'm trying to "get" them, reading and re-reading and letting it get into my brain. Thanks, thanks, thanks. - Hoytster | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
The glorious thing about God is he takes us where we are and he is very patient. If our words are helpful, great, but the only one who can really ease your disappointment is God. It is SOOOOO hard to keep trusting after you feel he has let you down. I learned that so well with my retarded child. I couldn't (and still don't) understand how God could allow her to suffer as she does. But I stand with Job, and though he take everything, I still will trust him. I say that with as much fear as trust, though. I know it can always get worse. Kindof like Paul must have felt going to Rome at the end of Acts, when he knew he was going to face hardship, yet he went anyway. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Melissa, you are right. I'm seeing that God wants me to hold everything I value loosely, because he is in charge of it. The only thing I can really cling to is Him. He is the only reality that cannot be taken from me. I cannot count on having anyone or any particular thing forever in my life. I pray that God will take "me" out of me and help me to be completely surrendered to him. Colleen | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Reading this forum almost daily, I have learned that SDAs feel as though they need to earn or otherwise qualify for salvation, that it is not simply given us through God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice. Correct? This actually explains the proposition that one of my SDA friends tries to press on me, that we are obligated to strive for perfection, and that (in her words) there are many instances of people achieving perfection in the Bible. My Methodist church holds what I think is the standard Protestant belief, that God's grace is sufficient for our salvation, and as sinners we cannot possibly deserve it. Our works are like dirty rags, but God's love overcomes that. What strikes me is that SDAs have this intensely anti-Catholic attitude, where the Pope is the anti-Christ and mainstream Protestant churches are "really Catholic" because they have worship on Sunday. Yet SDAs and Catholics are identical in holding that our behavior on Earth qualifies us for salvation. The two organizations may state it differently, works (Catholics) versus perfection (SDAs)... but it's really the same thing, that we can EARN salvation instead of receiving it through the amazing gift of God's grace. Correct? Thanks, Hoytster | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Hoyster, I think you are correct! Ironically, for all their antipathy for the Papal system and beliefs, Adventism and Catholicism are quite similar I believe. Both consider themselves as the one true church, ("catholic" or "remnant"). Good works/morality as qualifications of at least 'keeping' the salvation you have accepted in Christ in the past. (Sabbath/7th day 'keeping'). Extra-biblical authorities... and we know who they are! The Papal decrees=infallibility...compare this with Ellen White=an "authoritative and continuing source of truth". (of course, with an always fresh new Pope taking over when one dies, they have an 'advantage' in being able to modify some of these 'God-given' statements thru the years.) Oh well, I'm very grateful to have Jesus as the beginning and ending of my life here, and forever! grace always, cindy | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Hoyster, find a search engine and put in 'council of Trent'. This Catholic council that states Catholic doctrine is astonishingly close to what you will find SDA's believe. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I also find their structure amazingly similar. The Catholic church hires all of its priests and more or less assigns them places, with some competition for the more "desirable" churches/locations. Though B says 'some' pastors now get to choose where they want to go, it seems many are still assigned by the conference. The invisible head of the conference still seems to be EGW and her theology (similar to the pope), and no one is going to blatantly contradict her for anything the Bible says. They also both have an extensive education system, all employees of the structure. And both have hospitals. I wonder who is mirroring who... (or is one of those supposed to be a "whom"?)... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Well, the Catholics came first. . . I've thought, also, that the simmilarity between them is SO ironic. I remember Richard reading a Catholic website a few years ago, and it stated that the Catholic church recognizes Adventist baptism because Adventists are baptized into a church, implying that loyalty to the church is a component of salvation. They do not recognize evangelical baptism because evangelicals are saved inidivually and baptized into Christ. Church membership is not a component of evangelical salvation. So interesting! Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Wow! I've never heard that. I now find the idea that baptism in Christ can be denied to a believer, based on the fact that they may not believe one or more of the 27 fundamentals, very offensive. This *might* be a valid reason for not extending membership in a certain congregation to someone, but should never be a reason to deny baptism into Christ. It certainly contradicts the model we see in Acts: Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Acts 8:36-38 (NKJV) Chris | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
That baptism point is one I keep asking B about because it just seems so blatantly heretical. Though he acknowledges it is not biblical (and his pastor spent an afternoon trying to explain the great commission says to "teach" people then baptize them as the justification for such actions), it seems to be a minor issue compared to everything else they're right about (in his mind). He even tried to tell me EGW's name was not on the baptism certificate requirements ... because they had said "spirit of prophecy" instead ... I told him he could not use that deception on me, I know "who" they thought the SOP was. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
We are on a roll today. I sat on a church board of a small SDA church and was amazed that they were talking about the way a person dressed was reason for not baptising them. I just could not believe it. We had a pastor come and a memeber asked he if he was spiritual. They were always so concerned about the outside of the person. Its sad but this is how they are taught and believe it with all their hearts. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
Melissa, you might want to tell B he's wrong on that one. The following is copied directly from the Gen Conference of SDA site on their "fundamental beliefs". The famous no. 17 reads17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) She IS the basis of their "fundamentals". So. blessed to be out of such foolishness! <>< Thomas | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Now Thomas, you know that nothing is that the GC would not allow themselves to be pinned in a corner that easily. As usual, they have "hedged" enough to make both you and "B" right. If you look at the back of the baptismal certificate, the thirteen items that new converts commit to, you will see #8, which says:
There is no mention of EGW. One has to "read between the lines." However, inside the certificate, where the 27 Fundamental Beliefs are listed, belief #17 is just as you stated. The funny thing is that if you look at the back of the certificate, item #11 that new converts commit to says, "I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the SDA Church. I purpose, by the grace of God, to fulfill His will by ordering my life in harmony with these principles." To me, that about covers it, but I am sure the attorneys at the GC who penned this document could probably find a way to wiggle their way out of it. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
I have never actually seen the certificate, just read the requirements in the church manual. That is quite a piece of symantical tip-toeing... "I know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the SDA Church. I purpose, by the grace of God, to fulfill His will by ordering my life in harmony with these principles." Seems the words 'AS TAUGHT BY' are the keys in that phrase. Does that mean one is not required to keep principles taught by the Bible, but not taught by the SDA church? More a rhetorical observation than an actual question. |
