| Author | Message | ||
| Barbsigirl Registered user Username: Barbsigirl Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2004 |
I was wondering if anyone can help me understand what the Adventist position is on Israel in relation to prophecy in the Bible. Now that I am attending a Baptist church I hear so much about how prophecy was fulfilled in 1948 according to scripture. If this is so, how can the Adventists just sweep those texts under the rug? I believe the SDA's teach that Israel is replaced by the Christian church and are lost as a people. Although I never wanted to hear about prophecy when I was an Adventist, it was too frightening as a child. Anyway, the Baptist version seems to make a lot of sense Biblically. Barb | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2001 |
Adventists think they are Israel-the remnant-but the Baptist view is correct. The remnant is the part of Israel that will repent and be saved. A big part of the reason the SDA's keep the law is that they think they are Israel. The book of Micah explains the whole deal quite well. Israel was rebellious and stiff-necked and followed other gods, God punishes them for centuries and finally a portion of them repents and turns back to God and are saved. Also the book of Hosea tells the story, God being represented by Hosea and the prostitute being Israel. Lots in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos and others too. For New Test. see Romans 11. How they continue to believe this is beyond me. I exhaustively correspond with one SDA almost daily on this subject. All I can say is they are blinded. | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 406 Registered: 6-2002 |
As some people say, "sometimes a rock is just a rock." Exactly right Sabra. I think the reason Adventists just can't let it go is because it is one of those "key stones" of their theological construct. Just think, if they say anything like "Well, maybe, sometimes, when the Bible says Israel after the crucifixion, it might possibly mean literally the Jews . . .": all of a sudden their "status" as the "only true chosen" crumbles into dust. They dare not say that. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2003 |
The whole arena of prophecy was interesting to me, but Iím not one of those who studies it routinely. Since knowing ěmyî SDA, Iíve forced myself to read more about the current theories. My pastor likens reading the scriptures related to prophecy as a huge thick brick wall that God has inserted peep holes in every 2-3 feet. Itís hard to know exactly whatís going on on the other side, but you get glimpses. I like that analogy. The seemingly most popular view right now is called dispensationalist, but it has many forms and arguments to differing perspectives under that umbrella. Iíve listened to enough of each view to say that I think it just depends upon how you interpret different passages and the symbolism in them. It also depends upon what you think has been fulfilled and what is still to be fulfilled. Iím leaning personally towards the pre-trib perspective, but there are some interesting questions the mid-trib and post-tribs ask about the pre-trib perspective such that Iím not dogmatic about anything except we are to be ready at all times for our Lord and now merely wait until the ěsignî appears that itís time to get ready. I think that theory is called the ěpan-tribî ...it will all pan out in the end. :-) I am by no means an expert on any of this, Iíve merely read my Bible and studied a few different perspectives. One of the passages that swayed me towards my current position is that of Romans 9-11. In that passage, you will find that God clearly has a plan again for literal Israel. Paul contrasts old testament scriptures with the current state of Israel and the gentiles and how he will again look to Isarel. I heard an SDA pastor one time say the dispensational view was created by catholic priests who were trying to keep from looking like the beast. They claim it has only been popular since the 1970s. So, I did a little research into that perspective. I found a book on dispensationalism copyrighted in 1912. It was very similar to what I hear today in that camp of theology. What I was most fascinated by and think may be one of the reasons it has taken off IS the issue of Israel in their land again. Even in 1912, decades before the war that brought israel back home, part of the dispensational view was that Israel would again be at home in the land. I think the realization of that prediction brought about huge credibility to their position as a whole. I really couldnít find anything to support where the view was formalized and named. The term itself seems pretty generic. Depending upon your perspective of the tribulation (last 7 years of Danielís 70 weeks), Christ is thought to call his church home at 3 different occasions. At the begiinning (see references to God protecting them as he protected Noah...Removing from the earth in an ark, then returning them when the judgment had passed or passages about God protecting his people from wrath...pulling Lot out of Sodom before burning the city, the whole passover thing, etc....I can look them up if youíre interested in more exactness), in the middle (there is a passage in Revelation that talks about calling people home approximately 3.5 years through ...sorry Iím not more exact...just rough scenarios), and then the view he will pull the church only moments before he shows up to fight the final battle often called armaggeddon (this camp doesnít think God will provide any special protection for christians and they will endure what the rest of the wicked do). Those are the big umbrellas under the dispensational camp which generally thinks God will once again turn to save Israel once the fullness of time for the Gentile has passed. Just a word about Daniel 9 since I know B (the main SDA in my life) has spent a lot of time arguing that text. Because of the way SDAs use Daniel 8 and then try to tie Daniel 9 to it, you really need to straighten out fact from fiction there first. This is my ěunderstandingî in general terms. Daniel 9 was written 11-13 years AFTER Daniel 8 (depending upon how you count the years of the kings. (1st year of Darius vs 3rd year of Belshazzar) SDA theology says that Daniel (9:21, I think) is thinking of the vision in Daniel 8. But the beginning of Chapter 9 clearly states that Daniel was thinking of the prophecies of Jeremiah. Since that was the beginning of this writing, itís hard to imagine he was thinking about a vision he had 11 years earlier. And harder to prove from my perspective. So, thatís one huge difference. The 2nd is that of the 70 weeks. SDA perspective (and there are other prophetical camps as well) believe all 70 weeks have been complete. My personal quandry there is that the prophecy says that at the end of 70 weeks, there will be an end of sins, and everlasting righteousness, etc. Now, if you speak figuratively, and Christ as our righteousness and a forgiveness for all sins, okay...I can see how you can say those things are all complete. But, if it is literal as the other things in that passage are, those things wonít be here until Christ himself returns. Only then will we have everlasting righteousness and no more sins, etc. Some of the other things were definately fulfilled at Christs life, death and resurrection, but those two particularly throw me. 3rd, the use of the word prince...Though both vs 25 and 26 use prince, they are different words in their original text. Messiah the prince is a prince like a commander in chief. The people of the prince who is to come is like a low ranking officer. Different Bible versions translate it differently and some capitalize it in one place but not the other to show it is referencing 2 different people. I know B says the SDA position is that both of these princes are Christ. If you read on into Daniel, youíll find the prince of the people breaks covenants and does things Christ would not do. So, beyond the meaning of the word itself, it is pretty clear that these are two different individuals. I think the part about destroying the city and the sanctuary (9;26) was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and for the dispensationalist that is where we sit. Waiting for the ěthen he shall confirm a covenant .... B says those things in 25, 26, 27 are not in chronological order. For the SDA teaching on that passage, that is the only way to see those things. Iím not entirely sure how they claim vs 27 was fulfilled, but I know they teach the death of Stephen was the end of the 70 weeks?? And it all hinges on their dating of things. They get to some of the dating by linking the command in verse 25 to a passage in Ezra, I believe, but the dispensationalists Iíve heard believe the command in Nemehiah 1-2 is the actual fulfillment because it actually mentions building the walls and the streets (the city as verse 25 says) rather than the temple as in Ezra. Again, just depends upon how you translate those things. The dates are only important to SDAs however, who need to support 1844. Those are some of the biggest discrepancies in the two perspectives that I can think of off hand that may have relevance to the Israel in prophecy question. The 70th week deals with Israel as the other 69 weeks did to be true to Danielís prophecy. For that to be true, there is a connection between that and Revelation and Romans 9-11 as being all part of the same scenario. Since SDAs do believe they are the literal Israel, they cannot have God coming back after the physical one. When I asked why Jews get saved today, I didnít get an answer, so Iím not sure they can reconcile that one full circle, or at least B canít. I hope some of this has been helpful?? Again, Iím not proclaiming validity to one prophetical perspective over another, just some differences in the SDA position and that of the dispensational camp that struck me as valid. Interesting side-note...I was reading in the online Herald-Review magazine once and found an interesting clip about how SDA teachers had been ridiculing the dispensational view that Israel would ever again be in the land up until 1948...when it happened. Then they had to ěrestudyî the issue to understand how it could have happened. The article never explained the results of their study. If Iíve misspoken or misrepresented anything, Iím sure someone will help me out.... What a long-winded response :-) | ||
| Barbsigirl Registered user Username: Barbsigirl Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2004 |
Melissa, it was a great response. Thank you. It is what I was thinking about the SDA belief. You never hear it talked about and so I wondered what their take was. I have also been made aware of the dispensations. Very interesting. But I do like that analogy too, about the wall, because that is what bothers me the most, when I hear different views and interpretations, I feel that I just get confused. What I really have been starting to think is just what you said "It will all pan out in the end". I guess God isn't going to tell us everything, so we need to trust Him. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree. Prophecy, I believe, is for the purpose of our being able to know, as thngs progress, what is happening and relatively where we are in the promised scheme of things. Prophecy is how we know we're not victims of impersonal fate. God is in the events of the world. It's not only Adventists, by the way, who are passionate about the belief that Israel in the New Testament is all believers, not just Jews. There are some people who really believe that because all who believe in Jesus are Abraham's offspring, as Romans 4 and Galatians teach, the Israel in Romans 9-11 cannot refer to Jewish Israel. I haven't understood exactly how that view makes sense in light of Romans 9-11. Our pastor pointed out that the state of Israel fulfills Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones that came together but still have no life in them, but God ultimately brings them to life. Israel today is godless and dead; it is like dry bones stuck together into the shape of Israel, but it is not spiritually alive. 'Tis interesting to ponder and observe! Colleen | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2004 |
I don't want to be the one who is the oddball here. It is my conviction that the Scriptures clearly teach that Israel are the christians (the church). There is no other salvation plan for the nation of Israel than has been provided for anyone else. Jesus is the only way. I don't think that my view sides with the Adventists in that they feel that the sabbath is the sign of the remnant. I too, am a Baptist. As for all the Old Testament passages that seem to support the premil/pretrib view. The entire Old Testament is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The "Israel of God" is the sum of all believers. There is no further hope for Israel as a nation. I love this fellowship and the spirit therein, but I must support what I believe the Scripture teaches. While still respecting my brothers and sisters' views on this matter. (I don't believe in posting verbose dissertations on my belief so I stated my thoughts as posted for the sake of brevity)if you would like the "verbose" version than I will, with Scriptural references. Your Brother In Christ, Jeff | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeff, I find this a fascinating topic and I have by no means exhausted my study or completely made up my mind on one particular view. If anything, the more I study the more I think we need to approach this with great humbleness and without extremem dogmatism or rancor. I DEFINATELY don't think escatology should be a point of disunity among believers (even if it's a point of debate). I am curious about the views of others, especially those coming out of Adventism and really looking at this with an open mind for the first time. I'm curious how you would class your escatology. Clearly you are not a pre-mill dispensationalist. The other major options would be historic pre-mil (i.e. no pre-trib rapture), a-mill, or post-mill. From your comments above regarding the OT prophecies being completely fulfilled in Jesus, I would guess you have an a-mill view. Correct? Not wanting to debate, just curious. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2003 |
Where does the idea come from that there is another salvation plan? It's not in any position I've ever heard (though I've heard the accusation) ... as far as the jews, the idea merely says the veil is removed and they recognize Jesus as messiah. Their salvation is as ours...by faith. But I'm curious about this 'other salvation plan' and it's origins. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris and Ms. Melissa, Let me start by saying I love you in the Lord and I'm so thankful to have such brothers and sisters as you in my life to share our beliefs. Chris, I can't agree with you more about the balance of discussing escatology and the value of fellowship with those of like faith as we have here in FAF. Never let my posting of an idea or belief, as I see things, be understood to be a dogma such as to part fellowship. Such is the nature of web-based communication. The tone or mood by which you present your thoughts is sometimes missed in the message. Now, to answer your question. I would say that I am "Amillennialist" in my escatology. I am careful saying that because there may be things that published Amil. writers say and believe that aren't inline with God's Word. But for the sake of general understanding thats my leaning. Melissa, thank you for the question about "another salvation plan". Just as I said to Chris, I thank you for the spirit that we can discuss our beliefs. I believe the clear teaching of Jesus concerning His soon return. I believe it will be as follows: John 5:28-29; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1)The trumpet sounds 2)The dead in Christ rise from their graves.îThe last dayî- John 6:39,40,44,54. (Eternity in Heaven begins) 3) The living righteous are taken up. (Raptured) (Eternity in Heaven begins) 4)The wicked dead rise to eternal damnation.îThe last dayî-John 12:48. (Eternity in Hell begins) 5)The wicked living and dead cast into the lake of fire. (Eternity in Hell begins) The previous scenario takes place, according to Jesus when He expresses ěthe hour comethî-John 5:28-29 The pre-millennialist/Pre-Tribulationist (PM/PT) teach that there is a special place in the future in which the nation of Israel will one day come to God (salvation) during a literal 1000 year reign after a 7 year tribulation. Here is the contrast, Melissa. The salvation plan of the Bible states that "Now is the appointed time" and that "Today is the day of salvation". If someone, Jew or Gentile, is not saved on the "last day", which could be today, then there is an eternity in Hell awaiting. PM/PT cannot possibly say this in that they believe that the Jews will one day, in the future, come to Him as His chosen nation. As you say "the veil is removed and they recognize Jesus as messiah". Clearly stated: If Jesus were to come today and a Jewish person living in Jerusalem is not a believer,then they will not go to heaven, right? They would spend the rest of their eternity in Hell. That is why we are to be fervent to spread the gospel to every nation including Israel. Therein is salvation. It is with this understanding that Paul in Romans 9-11 pleads for the nation of Israel to come to Jesus. To offer another salvation plan to the nation of Israel would be only offering them a false hope and would lead to a further unbelief. What I have shared with you is what I believe with all my heart concerning the Lordís return. I have given you the Scriptures from which I draw my understanding. Let me know what you think. In Jesus, Jeff | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess I have never seen that train of thought as another gospel. Because it is still an acceptance of Christ. Just as our SDA friends/family may or may not recognize Christ absent the Sabbath, law, etc., one day, the veil over their eyes about these things may open and they may recognize the truth about Christ alone. I guess I see the issue of salvation for Jews recognizing Christ in the same way...or muslim or athiests. But you are right in that one day, their opportunities to make that choice end. I know what you are saying about the tribulation years, and I have heard some claim that's a second-chance theology, but it is complex and I have no real conviction about it to support or deny at this point. You are absolutely right that "today" and more specifically right now is all we have. I also appreciate the spirit here. I hope my comments weren't/aren't seen as argumentative. I really didn't understand where that thought came from, which is why I asked. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 212 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for your reply Jeff. When I first started looking at escatology from a fresh (non-Adventist) perspective I found the amillenial position quite persuasive and leanded heavily that way. I still find it to have some considerable merits. However, since reading Wayne Grudhem's Systematic Theology I have found myself drawn towards a historic pre-millenial position. This view does not break the second coming up into two parts nor does it see Israel and the Church as two completley seperate and distinct entities. However, it would also not preclude a massive conversion of natural/literal Jews just prior to the second coming of Christ. this strikes me as something of a "middle" position that still allows OT prophecies to be literal in one sense without over literalizing Messianic prophecies. It also eliminates what I consider to be the scripturally weakest link in dispensational escatology, a pre-trib rapture that breaks the second coming up into two parts. Having said all this, I could easily change my mind tomorrow......or later this afternoon for that matter. Which is one reason I like to hear the views of others. I can definately be persuaded on this one and am eager to have people present their views to me in a compelling way. I'm still studying and finding that there are strengths and weaknesses to nearly all the major escatological systems. It's a VERY complex subject. I don't think any of us will settle this one this side of the second coming. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll all be suprised to one degree or another. God Bless. Chris | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris and Ms. Melissa, Thank you for the exchange of ideas. You are wonderful to share with. One thing that is central to God's Word and our understanding of it is a proper understanding of who is Israel. If we don't understand the doctrine of election as taught according to scripture,then the topic becomes very confusing. If we see Israel as all believers (Gal.6:15, 16) then all of the rest of scripture is clear. It really isn't that confusing. It becomes confusing when teachers begin to make things literal that are fulfilled in Christ. Looking at Daniel 9 with fresh eyes is a wonderful and clear picture of Christ fulfilling the old covenant and making desolate the things of the old economy of Jewish worship. Imagine a person who comes to Christ and you give him/her a new Bible and they read Dan. 9. Without a preconceived viewpoint you would never think of the "prince" being the antichrist as taught today. I'm asking that we be faithful to God's Word on this and other passages. We all feel this way when the Adventist Church laughs and ridecules the Roman Catholic Church for teaching Purgatory yet they hold the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement in the same way. Just some thoughts.  In Him, Jeff | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 194 Registered: 7-2003 |
I too have looked at enough perspectives see holes or unanswered questions in them. To say the prince, to use that example, always has to be Christ disconnects with the original text languages when I look up the definition of the word...it wasn't written in English afterall. When I look at the definitions, I see different people (commander in chief vs low-ranking officer). Similarly, the scripture clearly talks about a man of sin or lawless one...lawless one, one opposed to Christ, anti-Christ...same thing. How can people say it is not a man? I think the more I study, the more questions I have! Actually, I've almost wondered how anyone can have such dogmatic views on any perspective without years of study unless they're just taking the view of a trusted scholar or teacher, which is probably what many people do. I have a book of Revelation which is layed out like a parallel Bible with 4 major escatological views of different passages. I should look at it again. I know I don't have the education or training to say this interpretation is correct and this one is wrong. But there are some things I don't think are fair at this point either. For example, I can't say that every reference to Israel in the Bible refers to the church. I've heard that argument used too many times to say we are bound to the old covenant law and all its rules and regulations, so that just puts walls up for me. I understand Gal 6 referred to above, but scripture says we aren't jew nor greek too. So, are we Israel or is their neither jew nor greek?? (that's a rhetorical question) We are either Christs or we aren't and that's the only way I can really makes sense of it regardless of labels. For the rest of it, I have to be patient with it and hope others will be patient with me. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 213 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, I believe the book you mentioned is called, "Revelation: Four Views" edited by Steven Gregg. I also have this in my library and have found it to be an abolutely invaluable even-handed resource. I would most highly recommend this book to anyone with an interest in escatology. The editor has done an excellent job in going through Revelation line by line and compiling the most compelling views from leading exegetes and catagorizing these views into systems. It's kind of like having parralel commentaries for each verse. Gregg is very fair and even states in the introduction that he has switched his own view more than once as he's studied the material. Here is a direct link to the book on CBD if you would like to take a closer look: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/128097012?item_no=72128&netp_id=157091&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW If ayone wants a smaller more easily digestible summary of the major views, I would suggest "3 Crucial Questions About the Last Days" by Daniel J. Lewis. This book is also very fair minded and does not attempt to convince the reader on any one view. You can find more info here: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/128097012?item_no=58201&netp_id=141437&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thank you Chris and Ms. Melissa. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 195 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, Chris. Nice to have a little affirmation of the book since I wasn't that sure of the author. And the first time I looked at it, my eyes started to swim ... :-). I never knew there were so many views. Sometimes you just have to put it away for a while... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree; I don't see how anyone can be dogmatic about eschatology. We just don't have enough details to be absolutely certain. I also agree that I can't quite believe that every reference to Israel means the church necessarily. Similarly, I don't believe in different plans of salvation for the Jews and the Gentiles, either. I really can see that it may be possible that the Jews will have an awakening when they will be able to make a clear decision about Jesus. I just can't read Romans 9 through 11 any other way. Also, many OT prophecies just don't make sense outside some understanding of a milennial kingdom that preceeds the new earth. But I'm loving the fact that I don't have to know in advance. It's such a relief not to be burdened by "knowing" the "truth" about the end times! Colleen | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2004 |
Colleen, Perhaps I am missing something. After you mentioned Romans 9-11 yesterday I went back last night and read it again. I honestly and humbly don't see the slightest reference to the millennial kingdom or a futute hope for Israel. Am I reading the right passage? Maybe God is just not showing me something. Help me out. Where in those passages are you seeing it. Your Brother, Jeff | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeff, We all know in part. It's not a salvation issue, and I'm sure the more you study the more lots of things will be revealed to you. I have studied the subject a lot, since I correspond with an SDA a lot about it. We do study, not argue and I have learned a lot. Here are some of my notes: Deut. 31 God tells Moses that he will die, that the people (Israel) will play the harlot, have other gods and break the covenant. Then He will be angered toward them In that Day, forsake them and hide His face from them, many evils and troubles will befall them so that they will say in that day 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' Moses tells them that they will be rebellious and stiff necked and become utterly corrupt and evil will befall them in the latter days. Deut 32 Moses' Song Prophetic song describing the inheritance of Israel being divided among the nations because of unbelief and disobedience, telling future generations to look back and see if it isn't so, how God delivered them, took care of them, gave them food and water and protection and He hid His face, prophesies how God will provoke them to jealousy by those that are not a nation 32:21 (Gentiles Romans 10:19) "I would have said, "I will dash them in pieces, I will make the memory of them to cease from among men," Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should misunderstand. Goes on to describe God's punishment and judgement and ultimately they come to the end of themselves and see that God is God and repays those that hate Him. 36"For the Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants---see, there are a few servants left. Then He says "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people, For He will avenge the blood of His servants, and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people. Micah Ch 1 Judgement on Samaria and Judah Lord coming down for the transgression of Jacob and sins of house of Israel-Samaria the transgression of Jacob and high places of Judah-Jerusalem (high places being where sacrifices are made to false gods) Will make Samaria a heap of ruins Ch 2 Cause of Judgement coveting, oppression, stealing from others ( no love) v12 promise of future restoration to gather the remnant of Israel, put them together Ch 3 Judgement of Princes, prophets and promise of future judgement on heads of house of Jacob and rulers of house of Israel Ch 4 Promise of Coming Kingdom In the latter days the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on top of the mountains In that day I will assemble the lame, gather the outcast and those whom I have afflicted, make the lame a remnat and the outcast a strong nation, So the Lord will reign over them Even the former dominion shall come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem Pains seize them for now they go forth from the city-v 10, to dwell in the field and even Babylon but there the Lord will redeem you from the hand of your enemies, now also many nations have gathered against you, ...but they do not know the thoughts of the Lord, neither do they understand His counsel; for He will gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor. Ch 5 Birth of Jesus Work of Jesus v 10-15 In that day He will cut off horses, destroy chariots, cut off sorceries, idols, destroy cities, execute vengeance on the nations that have not heard. Ch 6 God pleads 2 For the Lord has a complaint against His people, and He will contend with Israel I brought you out of Egypt, redeemed you from bondage, sent Moses and Aaron and Miriam, O My people, remember now what Balak king of Moab counseled, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him...that you may know the righteousness of the Lord. Micah asks, "What do You want? sacrifices, my firstborn? God answers, "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you....but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." That's all it ever was and all it ever will be: "Love God, love your neighbor" They just couldn't get past the pride of being chosen, special, clean, so God continues to humble them. It has nothing to do with us. He loves them so much, it breaks my heart. He can't save them if they refuse to do the simple thing He asks so he repeatedly punishes them in an effort to break them, to bring them to the end of pride and confidence so that they will repent and believe. Micah gets it-Ch 7 v7-20 Promises of Final Salvation Therefore I will look to the Lord I will wait for God He will hear me Do not rejoice over me my enemy, when I fall I will arise When I sit in darkness the Lord will be a light to me I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against Him until He pleads my case and executes justice for me, He will bring me forth to the light I will see His righteousness In that day when your walls are to be rebuilt, In that day the decree will go far and wide, in that day they shall come to you from Assyria and from the fortress to the river from sea to sea mountain to mountain, yet the land will be desolate because of those who dwell in it and the fruit of their deeds, Shepherd Your people with Your staff ...as in the days of old, as in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt, I will show them marvelous things. "Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea You will give truth to Jacob, and mercy to Abraham Which You have sworn to our fathers from days of old. In my opinion, there is no way any of this applies to the church, there is no way to say it has already been done, it has to be Israel and future. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thank you Sabra, I enjoyed you comments from the Old Testament about God's love for Old Testament Israel. You have rightfully said it is future for Israel in this passage. The future in view by God is pointing to the time of Christ at His first coming. This hermeneutic that is being used that views the Old Testament as a "some is fulfilled and some isn't" view is leading to a belief in ambiguity. Deuteronomy 31 and 32 are fulfilled in Jesus. He came to His own and they wouldn't recieve Him. He came to them first then to the Gentiles and still they wouldn't come. He even wept over them and they wouldn't come. I'm not sure what license we have to project this Old Testament passage past the Cross of Calvary. Micah 7:7-20 is a beautiful passage as God addresses His people, Israel. So who is Israel? God tells us that in Romans 2: 28-29 and again plainly in Galatians 6:15,16 and Phil.3:3. You see that the Old testament must always be interpreted by the New Testament. This is faithful.If I were to read Micah without the commentary of the New Testament I can draw all sorts of conclusions. It appears that Old Testament passages are presented it is as if Jesus never came. We struggle with our own brethren the SDA when dealing with the truth about the Sabbath. Where is Jesus in it? In my opinion, If Micah 7:7-20 isn't talking about the saving power of God in Christ Jesus at Calvary and in my life, we are all in trouble. This passage tells of God's deliverence of His people (the church) or as He calls them in Romans 11 the elect of God. Your Brother in Christ, Jeff | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2004 |
Sabra, Just so that there is no question of my heart. I am posting and responding in a good spirit. Please don't misunderstand me or think that I'm dogmatic, argumentative, a know-it-all or puffed up somehow. God forbid. I believe iron shapens iron. If I am wrong in any point then you owe it to me to help me to understand any truth. We know the the truth and His name is Jesus. Our Jesus. Jeff | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeff, not to speak for Colleen, but for me the crux of Romans 9-11 is: 24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the ingathering of the Gentiles has come in, 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.] 27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.] 28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of Godís choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For Godís gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] 30 Just as you were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their disobedience, 31 So they also now are being disobedient [when you are receiving mercy], that they in turn may one day, through the mercy you are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they may share the mercy which has been shown to youóthrough you as messengers of the Gospel to them]. 32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike]. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! ... The amplified Bible, containing the amplified Old Testament and the amplified New Testament. 1987. The Lockman Foundation: La Habra, CA As I read this passage, Paul is pointing out the fact that we gentiles have been grafted into the branch which is Christ and the natural branches which is the literal Israel will also be grafted back on (vs. 24). He then talks about how a hardening has befallen Israel while the full number of gentiles comes in. I do not know how you can say the Israel in that context is the church. To do so is to say the church has fallen away until more unsaved come in??? That doesn 't make sense. To say that the natural Israel has fallen away until the full number of gentiles have come in makes easy sense. But verse 29 specifically that God doesn't revoke his call. If he has called Israel, I can't believe God is going to revoke that call unless there somehow was never a literal Israel called to begin with. But this passage is post-Christ. It is New Testament era and to the church in Rome. It's not written to Jews or the nation of Israel. Verse 1 of chapter 11, Paul identifies himself as an Israelite....a literal, natural Israelite. I ASK then: Has God totally rejected and disowned His people? Of course not! Why, I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin! And he says God has not TOTALLY rejected and disowned his people. There is contrast between Israel (the literal people) and gentiles in this section of scripture. To Sabras point, again not speaking for her, chapter 11... 2 No, God has not rejected and disowned His people [whose destiny] He had marked out and appointed and foreknown from the beginning. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [Ps. 94:14; I Kings 19.] 3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets; they have demolished Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life. 4 But what is Godís reply to him? I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal! [I Kings 19:18.] 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by Godís unmerited favor and graciousness). 6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless]. 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [Godís favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). 8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. [Deut. 29:4; Isa. 29:10.] 9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a just retribution [rebounding like a boomerang upon them]; [Ps. 69:22.] 10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever. [Ps. 69:23.] 11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israelís] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement! 13 But now I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I lay great stress on my ministry and magnify my office, The amplified Bible, containing the amplified Old Testament and the amplified New Testament. 1987. The Lockman Foundation: La Habra, CA Here Paul shows how through Israel's history there has been a remnant selected BY GRACE. That same grace that applies to us gentiles now. But look at verse 12, "think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!" He is talking about the literal Israel. The church hasn't fallen away as in Old Testament examples, Israel has. Because of Israel's mis-step, salvation has come to the gentiles, but some day they will also be reinstated. I do not know how or when or where. But I do know it will be by the same gospel by which we were saved, not a new one. That is my reading of that scripture, taking it to mean exactly what it says. It does not make sense to say the church will be saved, since the church IS the saved. (vs 26, for example). Or the church is the enemy of God (vs 28)?? The contrast between the literal Israel and the gentiles is everywhere to me. But none of that changes how we are to live our lives for Christ today. The love we are to give to others applies regardless. | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ms. Melissa, Thanks for the response. I will address each point that you have raised. You address so many points that to faithfully respond will take some time. Be patient and we will cover each point precept upon precept. Just as we all want to know God's ways and His will for us. These trues are not insignificant. God only gives us so much time in the day. In Christ, Jeff | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2003 |
The passage Melissa quoted from Romans 9 above is exactly the passage I cannot dismiss as referring to the church. To be honest, there are quite a few common evangelical eschatological interpretations which I question, but this passage from Romans is one which I read to mean literal Israel. Yes, I agree, Jeff, that all the saved are Abraham's seed and are part of "Israel". Yet Paul is clearly talking about a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in chapter 9, and he does clearly say the natural branches will be grafted back in. They were cut off for the benefit of us Gentiles, but they will be grafted back in sometime. When he says "And so all Israel will be saved", I don't take that to mean all Jews will be saved any more than all the Gentiles will be saved. In fact, I can see that he might even have the full complement of Israel--both Jew and Gentile--in mind here. Yet based on the preceding verses, that full number can't become complete until the Jews are "unhardened" and are able to freely chose to accept Jesus or not. As for the millennial kingdom, Romans 9-11 does not mention it. Revelation 20, however, makes it clear that Jesus will reign over the nations, and the martyrs will be raised to rule with him. Both Peter and Paul, I believe, say (I'm not near my Bible right now, so I can't find the exact texts) that believers will reign with him. According to Revelation 20, this reign over the nations happens before the last great battle when Satan leads his people against the city of God. I'm not saying the Jews will become believers in the millennial kingdom. I do not know when their "unhardening" will happen. I just can't read Romans 9 to mean the church instead of Jewish Israel. I'm really not dogmatic at all about how the end will happen. I really can't see anything that clearly outlines events; I just see that various events are mentioned, but the timing of some remains unclear. Yes, I absolutely believe that the Israel of God is all believers who have accepted God's grace by faith in our Messiah. (Believing Israelites also were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.) No, I do not believe God will "grandfather" in the Jews at the end of time. They will have to decide to accept Jesus or not just as we do. It does seem, however, that they have been divinely put at a spiritual disadvantage following Jesus' death and resurrection for a period of time. Paul even says (Romans 11, I believe) that this disadvantage was for the purpose of allowing the Gentiles to become God's people, thereby causing the Jews to be jealous. But God will end this spiritual disadvantage and allow them to be able to truly hear the gospel and choose Jesus or not. How all of this will play out, I don't know. I see God's Israel as being made up of Gentiles and Jews, but it seems to me that, as Paul says, because of God's love for the patriarchs, He will allow for a specific harvest of believers from among the Jews at some time. Today the church is almost entirely Gentile. Paul seems to be saying that the final makeup of the church will include an influx from among the Jews. I do pray that God will help me to know what is true and to be kept safe from deception. My understanding about so many things has changed so much over the past few years, and reality is partially hidden from us as long as we're here on earth. I certainly do not see the issue of the role of Israel in the future as one that should divide the body. But it is an interesting subject! Praising God for his faithfulness to all who believe, Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeff, I don't take your comments offensively at all! I'm not trying to seem dogmatic either, I know it is something that took me a lot of study to come to an understanding of and there is still so much to learn. I also don't think you learn much from another person's view, it's best to study these things out and let the Holy Spirit show you. When I have more time I will post some scriptures and you can study them out for yourself. The first thing that really got my attention was the parable of the lost son. How the younger son was thrown a feast and the older was jealous about it and said, God I have kept all your commandments and you throw this indigent a feast! (Jews provoked to jealousy) Also, read Acts 3 Saul was a Jew, blinded by God, saw Jesus, sight brought back by a follower of Jesus and filled with the holy Spirit and baptised! Some prophesies being fulfilled now in Isaiah are the desert blossoming as a rose--happening in Israel now, people of Israel being brought back to their land.........I know I'm being vague, I'm really rushed right now, but will have more time tomorrow. You are absolutely right, we will all be one, saved by grace in the end (or the beginning I sould say) but for now we are the branches grafted in to the tree and they will be grafted back in if they do not continue in disbelief and we can't be puffed up about it or we can be broken off too---all in Romans 11. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 199 Registered: 7-2003 |
"I also don't think you learn much from another person's view, it's best to study these things out and let the Holy Spirit show you. " AMEN. Don't let me try to convince you, I just shared my heart. Please talk to God and let him guide your study. I'm just another clay pot....like you. |
