| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 455 Registered: 3-2001 |
Welcome Barbsigirl, Leaving is never easy. It is a hge obstacle that we all must deal with. I can tell you (and am sure that most everyone here can ocnfirm), there is nothing more mserable than living a double life. In fact, it might even be worse than being trapped in the bounds of deception. At least when you were ignorant (I say that kindly), you didn't know that you didn't know--in fact, you were probably quite secure in your faux knowledge. I know that for myself, I "double-dipped" for well over a year (maybe even two). However, as some point, I realized that I could not do it any longer. I had to take a stand. I can say with confidence that it was the best decision that I could have ever made. I don't mean to put a guilt trip on you, but Jesus himself said that:
In marriage, God gave us the perfect example of our relationship with Him. In the same way that we are to forsake all others and cleave unto our spouse, God calls us to forsake all other relationships for His sake. We are His bride, and He is the bridegroom. God is big enough to take care of your mother, and even at her age, God might use your stand for the Gospel to work a mighty miracle. There are actually a couple people here who have testimonies of their elderly parents obtaining an assurance late in life. I don't say these things lightly. I know how difficult it can be. My fiance has elderly parents who are also staunch Adventists. They are grieved to the soul over her departure from the "Remnant Church." There is not a day that goes by that they don't agonize in prayer for her. This is hard for her to see, but she is just as confident in her decision to leave as I am. The discomfort in breaking her parent's heart pales in comparison to the freedom that she is experiencing in Christ. My prayer for you is that you would find the courage and strength to follow the leading of the Spirit--no matter the cost. I am not saying that you should leave, but I am concerned that you are not experiencing the joy and the assurance of your salvation. nothing (or no one) is worth sacrificing that. In His Grace (and wishing you God's best) Doug | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 95 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hi Barbsigirl, Welcome to the family. Erasing the "tapes" and realy fealing the joy of your salvation is a matter of faith. Steping out and embracing the fact that Jesus died for YOU and in Him, you ARE saved. Believe it with all your heart. Except it and publicly state it. If your husband is a baptist, there should be an opportunity at the end of each service in his church to publicly state and eccept Jesus as your savior. Whether there or ssomewhere else, take the stand and make the public confession. Then, for all time, believe that he has done it for you. You will never look back. Taking such a stand does not mean that you have joined another church, it means that you have excepted Him. I was no longer an SDA when my mom died. She too was, as you say, died in the wool Adventist. When she died at the age of 86, it was I who was able to reassure her of her salvation. Three SDA ministers at her side offered no assurance or guarentee of salvation. With a few simple texts, I shared with her what they, with all their "red books" could or would not. Never be afraid to stand with and for Jesus. And when you do, never look away again. Not for anything. As Bro. Doug said, you are In His Grace! So am I <>< Thomas | ||
| Barbsigirl Registered user Username: Barbsigirl Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thank you both for responding. I have been attending with my mom on Sat. and my husband on Sundays. Double duty, double life! In a way it has been a blessing as the differences are becoming clearer and clearer. I know the need to take a stand, and want to. I just haven't yet. At first my fear was being a part of the "shaking" that EGW predicted. That was so scary. I lived most of my life "scared to death", waking up in the night wondering if I had an unconfessed sin that would keep me out of heaven. That has been my major fear all of my life. I feel like I was terrorized. I finally am beginning to understand GRACE! What a concept! I am attending a Bible Study Fellowship also. That is a women's study group, non-denom. world-wide. It is wonderful. I feel like God is trying to get through to me. I do remember a time when I poured out my heart to God to save me and forgive me for all of my sins. I did this privately. I publicly acknowledge that I am a Christian, but I have never walked down that aisle. I am wondering if that is a salvation issue? I think I will get rebaptized but I don't know if I am supposed to walk down to publicly receive Him, or if getting rebaptized would be a public aknowledgement? Your thoughts are appreciated. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2001 |
Barbsigirl, Personally, I believe that the act of walking down the aisle has been overstated. There is nothing special about that act. While I think there can be value in doing it, it has nothing to do with salvation. For that matter, neither does baptism. The only requirement for salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The act of baptism is simply a public expression of what has already occurred in the heart (the death and burial of the old man and the resurrection of the new man as a new creation). Perhaps the greatest model of this teaching is found in Acts 8:
The eunuch did not respond to an altar call. He didn't walk "down front" to join a church. He simply obeyed the prompting of the Holy Spirit. That is what God is calling you to do. As far as your "double duty" is concerned, I agree that there is value in being able to compare and contrast the messages, but there comes a point when continuing to expose yourself to erroneous teachings serves no purpose but to keep you from breaking free from the deception. Those "old tapes," as Richard called them, will never be erased as long as you keep listening to them afresh week after week. Once you determine that they are false, there is little value in keeping them around. As Paul says in Galatians 4:30: \quote {Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.} If you're not familiar with this passage (particularly if you haven't read it since God began removing the veil from your eyes), read verse 21-30. It is a powerful lesson. In His Grace | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2003 |
Baptism is an outward expression of an inward change. Baptism itself does not save you. I was also raised baptist and know the baptist church makes quite a ceremony of baptism...and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself. But I don't see in the Bible where a crowd is required for baptism. You don't have to join the church to get baptized and being baptized in a baptist church doesn't make you "baptist". (If it does, you might be in the wrong church...) Now, I attend a non-denominational Christian Church (not because I have anything against the baptist church...that's just where God lead me when I was searching for a church home in my new home) and they will baptize one person in front of no one, if that is your comfort. But confessing Christ as your savior before men is Biblical. Jesus said if you confess me before men, I will confess you before my father in heaven. In my church, that does not necessarily mean going before the whole congregation, but I do think it has value in helping your boldness and really, others celebrate with you for your public confession. People put you on their prayer list and may have outreach specifically designed for the "new" Christian. That may or may not be beneficial to help sort through some of the things you have been taught in the past. God knows your heart. We had many people in my church when I was younger who were rebaptized because they didn't have a confidence in the confession they made as a child. But once you have nailed those decisions down in your own mind, since it sounds as though you might battle doubt, write it down, date it and put it someplace you will remember. When Satan comes at you with those doubts, go back to that piece of paper and rebuke him with the truth of God's word that your salvation is assured in the blood of Christ. No one can snatch you from his hand. And on XYZ date, you made sure that your commitment to Christ was secure and even though you were saved at a previous point in time, this gives you a point of reference to look back on and be assured that you have indeed invited Christ into your life. And God will work with you gently and graciously to make you a glorious woman of God. It already sounds like he has been working mightily in your life. Trust his leading that is supported in his word. Welcome. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 204 Registered: 7-2003 |
Barbsigirl, Your concern about baptism is near and dear to me as I also struggled with this question when I left Adventism. Just for the record, I do NOT believe that it is necessary or even advisable to be baptized multiple times. Although rebaptisms are often practiced in Adventism when people want to ěrecommitî their lives to Christ, I believe that this is a misrepresentation of the implications of baptism. I see baptism as being a one-time sign, the sign of entry into the new covenant. It symbolizes our death and new birth into Christ and is once for all, even as His atonement is once for all. Baptism is not something that needs to be done again and again any more than Christís sacrifice needs to be repeated over and over. It is finished, all has been accomplished. Having said all this, the question I really struggled with was centered around the fact that I didnít really know Jesus in a personal way during the years I was in Adventism. My great joy in finally knowing Him in a real way and in fully entering into His grace and mercy caused me to want to attest to my new life through the beautiful symbol of baptism. I talked to my current pastor about all this. He too was concerned that rebaptisms tend to send the wrong message about what completeness of what Christ has done. However, he gave something to ponder and asked that I pray over it. He said, ěI guess it comes down to what really happened. If you really wanted to dedicate your life to God when you were baptized, then itís not necessary to do this again. Itís true that you might not have understood a lot of things about Jesus, His grace, and salvation, but then a lot of the people that were baptized in the New Testament didnít understand everything right then either. The Christian life is a growing learning experience. However, if it had no meaning for you and all you did is just get wet, then Iíll certainly baptize you. So pray about it, were you baptized or did you just get wet? Let me know the answer and Iíll do what you ask.î I did pray about this quite a bit. As I prayed and thought back to my baptism at age 10, I realized that indeed I made a commitment to God that day and it meant something real to me. I was always very faithful to that commitment and there sure were a lot of things I didnít understand. I admit that I didnít have a close relationship with Jesus at that time, but I was desperately seeking Him and learning to know Him gradually within the confines of the cultural and religious milieu I was in. Perhaps coming to Jesus isnít always confined to one memorable moment in time that takes place at 11:27 on Sunday morning on such and such a date at an alter call. Perhaps it is sometimes a journey that the Holy Spirit leads us on through many paths. Perhaps our relationship with Jesus is sometimes also a gradual process where he is like a brand new acquaintance that we donít quite know yet and overtime we come to know and trust Him more and more. So was I ěsavedî at age 10 when I was baptized. Did my relationship with Jesus at that time really constitute saving faith? I still donít know the answer to that question, but my prayer over the matter led me to the realization that receiving Jesus was certainly my intent when I received baptism. It was a very meaningful experience for me and was much more than just getting wet. Whether I was saved at that point or not is less important to me today when compared to the beauty of the symbol of baptism. I would not want to do anything to take away from the symbolism of the completed work of Christ, so I have decided against rebaptism. Israelite mails entered into the old covenant through circumcision at 8 days old. Obviously they did not understand, but then they made the choice to live within that covenant and took part of the repeatable old covenant sign of Sabbath observance. Whatever my knowledge, whatever my level of faith when I accepted the entry sign into the New Covenant, I now know that I am a new Covenant believer by the grace and sacrifice of Jesus Christ alone. I celebrate my place in Christ overtime I participate in the repeatable sign of the New Covenant, communion. Every time I take the bread and the wine, I am remembered that His body and blood paid for every sin Iíve ever committed or ever will commit, once for all. Because of that one time sacrifice I am complete before God, I am perfect before the Father. I experience great peace and joy whenever I think of this and no longer agonize over whether I ěneedî another baptism. Of course, this is a very individual decision. I am only speaking of my own thought process and decision based upon my experience. The decision may be very different for another and equally valid based upon their experience. But I still like my pastorís question, ěDid you receive baptism, or did you just get wet?î May God give you great wisdom and insight as you continue your spiritual journey. Chris Lee Lincoln, NE | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 205 Registered: 7-2003 |
Oops! I didn't proof read my post before sending it. I see multiple typos, wrong words, dropped words,bad grammer, etc., but the one I have to correct is in the 3rd sentance of paragraph 4. That should read, "I *WASN'T* always very faithful to that commitment". I don't want to give the wrong impression on that count......I'm definately a sinner and always have been.....thank God, that becasue of Jesus, He doesn't see me that way........Thank God that the Holy Spirit is constantly at work transforming my character and making me into a more faithful servant. Chris | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2002 |
When I mentioned "walking the isle", I did not mean to imply that it was a salvation issue. Fact is, I have never done it, except to request membership in my local church. My intent was this; If you are in doubt about salvation, it is sometimes helpful, in faith, to take a public stand. Similar to Luther when I made his "here I stand, I can do no other" statement. You have drawn the line in the sand and from that point forward, you have a place to point to as your beginnig of faith. Many have no need to do such a public form of confession. There faith and salvation is no less real. I believe if you believe, you should be willing to publicly confess it and stand on it. Salvation begins and ends with excepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. He takes ALL your sins, confessed and otherwise. He pays ALL your debt, for heaven. Nothing you can do will add done millimeter to his gift to you, and nothing can take it away from you. Put your faith in Him. Put your complete trust in Him and KNOW that you have eternal life. He promised, and He does not lie. If taking a public stand helps you believe it and helps you in your confession of it, than please don't feel afraid to take that stand. In His Service, <>< Thomas | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
Barbsi, I agree with the comments that Chris gave on baptism. I do feel that being rebaptized, on the New Testament side of the cross would be like an Old Testament believer being re-circumcized. Would you agree with this? In Him, Jeff | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Barbsgirl! I have had an almost exactly parallel experience re: baptism as Chris had. I've realized that when I was 10 and baptized, I truly committed my life to God. I had a powerful experience of feeling God's Spirit with me for about two days following the baptism, and I knew that it was God. I've come to believe that I was really saved, but I didn't know it until much later. I now see that the Holy Spirit guarded and kept and led me during the next three decades or so until I really came to understand that my salvation was secure and Jesus was my Sabbath rest. Only then did I really KNOW I was saved. God used the (often painful) events of my life to prepare me to accept the reality of His finished work and to awaken me to the real gospel. Barb, I just want to say that I understand your confusion and uncertainty. Ask God to make his will for you clear and to give you the courage and certainty that you need to take a stand for Him, whatever that may mean. I suspect, judging from your posts above, that you stand at a place where you have to commit yourself either to Adventism or Jesus. As you choose to walk, sustained by Jesus' courage, through the doors he opens in front of you, you will discover his faithfulness, and you'll begin to experience the security of knowing you belong eternally to him. Sometimes we don't actually experience the certainty and love of Jesus until we obey (there's that word I hated as an SDA) his Spirit and decide to go where he leads. His love and our position in him become increasingly real as we respond to the convictions he gives us. Another thing to remember is that the deception of Adventism is real, and it is not of God. Evil is real, and evil is the author of deception. Ask God to guard your heart against deception and to replace the spirit of Adventism with His Holy Spirit. As you walk into truth, you will experience fewer and fewer of those debilitating doubts and fears. They are normal; they happen to all of us as we leave. God's Spirit, though, protects and frees us from those assaults from the evil one. Remember that Paul said our battle is not with flesh and blood; it is with powers and authorities of the air. Leaving Adventism is not merely a matter of embracing new information. It is a spiritual battle--but God fights those battles for us! We simply must akcnowledge our need of his power and courage, and then move aside so he can work in and through and around us! Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Barbsgirl, Welcome! One of the my favorite texts on assurance of salvation is: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." John 5:13 When doubts come, cry out to the Lord like the father of the child who was possessed: "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; HELP THOU MINE UNBELIEF. " Mark 9:24 Like Colleen said, this is a spiritual battle. I can say that my anxiety attacks, and doubts have diminished. Emerse yourself in The Word, and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you to truth. Leigh \ | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2001 |
Barbsgirl, Welcome! I got re-baptized when I left the SDA church. I was baptized at 10 and even remember telling my mother that I wasn't sure I knew what it meant. I do not feel that I had a conversion experience at that age or that I knew Christ at all. My thoughts on saved vs. unsaved is that it is one or the other. God knows end from beginning and He knows if we are going to come to Him or not so I believe even though I wasn't saved in my time frame He is timeless and guarded me all of those years knowing what my decision would be. I got rebaptized because I wanted to. I wanted to kill the old "man" and be new, start fresh, just as a symbol. It has nothing to do with salvation. You are free in Christ and if you feel you don't want to be baptized again, then don't, if you do, then great. Welcome and blessings, Also Welcome Jeff, great to have you here! Clay that description you wrote a few pages back was beautiful! | ||
| Barbsigirl Registered user Username: Barbsigirl Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, I am thrilled with all the encouraging notes that each of you have written! I feel like it is the first time that anyone really understands where I am coming from. I have read and re-read each one, and it has caused me to go back and think about my baptism at age 12. I feel reassured that it can be done again if I want to, without feeling the anxiety of not being saved. I feel that God is leading, even though I struggled and fretted about whether it was the Holy Spirit or the Devil. I agree that getting into scripture is the ONLY way to go. At first it made me so mad that Jesus didn't come right out and tell the disciples, "stop keeping the Sabbath". The debate goes on and on, and I do think that there are good points on both sides. However, the tyranny of Ellen White is the basis for all of the worrying about keeping the Sabbath. Last week this woman told me that some kids were playing tic-tac-toe on Sabbath and said they were playing SOS (Jesus Saves?) or something like that. How ridiculous! Elevating the Sabbath above Jesus to me is the worst problem in the church. Again, thank you all for such encouragement! It feels "real" in here! Barb | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
Barb, I have had some of the same struggles over the years that you deal with. Not neccessarily with baptism, but with the feeling inside of rejecting what one is raised to believe in light of God's Word. You begin to question your own convictions as to whether they are the Holy Spirit teaching me or am I just trying to seperate myself from Adventism. Over the years I have learned not to "bash" Mrs. White because it profits little. I try to focus on what is true. In the Old Testament we are commanded "Thou shalt not bear false witness". The New Testament believers, In Christ fulfillment of that commandment, are to bear true witness. For He is our truth. He is the only light we are to proport. God's people don't need "A lesser light leading to the greater light." Remember the song-This little light of mine-I'm gonna let it shine. That light is Jesus. I also agree that this forum is a most wonderful and peacable retreat. I enjoy the experienced of this fellowship. In His Rest, Jeff | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 39 Registered: 9-2003 |
Re Babsigirls' "Stop keeping the Sabbath!" I was never SDA, but I lived in a SDA household for eight years, where I was subjected to many conversations with people eager to lead me to their version of the truth. The EW-originated stuff was just too foreign for me to take seriously, but I was sincerely troubled by the 4th Commandment. EW didn't make that one up (though I believe she made up the bit about the vision where the 4th was glowing, to signify it's preeminence over the other Comamndments). The Sabbath HAD been Saturday. I did not know why the church had moved worship to Sunday (and still don't). I was troubled, for years. Thankfully, this year my Bible study is doing the four Gospels, and I have been watching for Sabbath-related stuff. For me, the following DOES mean "Stop keeping the Sabbath"... First, Mark 12.8: "For the Son of Man is lord of the sabbath." Followed immediately by Jesus (1) going to a synagogue (!), telling the priests "So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath.", and then (3) healing the cripples hand. For me that is plain. How "in your face" could Jesus get? He deliberately goes to the holy place, makes his statement about the Sabbath, and proceeds to do work (the healing). It is a deliberate illustration of His new truth. A legal mind might point out that you can do GOOD (only) on the Sabbath. Like, we're allowed to do evil on non-Sabbath days?  As an aside, I notice that Cokebury.com, the publishing arm of my Methodist church, has 18 publications about Sabbath keeping. The theme is rest and using it to get closer to God. I think that kind of Sabbath can be taken any day of the week, and probably should be taken EVERY day of the week, our busy lives notwithstanding. So there's nothing wrong with the 4th Commandment. The problem is understanding it the way some Jews and SDAs do, as a gigantic prohibition against work instead of a positive occasion for rest and spiritual renewal. EW's version is really idolatry: Sabbath-keeping is elevated to the highest level, higher than loving our Lord and our neighbor. Wrong, Ellen! I know my baby-steps Bible knowledge may seem elementary to some of you. That's OK; it works for me. Maybe you'll get something out of it, Barbsigirl. Blessings to you in your journey with Jesus - Hoytster | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2003 |
"I did not know why the church had moved worship to Sunday (and still don't)" I was always taught we went to church on Sunday because the Lord raised from the dead on Sunday. It was a celebration of the resurrection. If you read back in the church fathers stuff as early as 100s AD it talks about honoring the Lord's resurrection on Sunday. I know SDAs talk alot about Constatine "changing" worship from Saturday to Sunday, but again, if you read history in the texts I had available to me, all he really did was make it illegal to kill Christians. Further he seems to have legalized a practice the Christians were already keeping, Sunday worship. Canright has a great book about some of the historical errors the early SDAs made to support their presumptions. He wrote 2 books (maybe 3??), particularly "SDAism Renounced". It's an online book at http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/SDAism-RENOUNCED-by-D-M-Canright.html This one, if I'm remembering correctly, went to great lengths to contact different experts in the field of Roman history and Jewish history to verify some of the SDAs claims, and none of them were upheld. One of the most striking to me that he disproved was that the Romans worshipped gods each day of the week. According to one secular Roman historian, the Romans didn't even have a 7-day week until Constantine adopted it from the Christians. They went to market every 8th day, but most of their gods were worshipped on a monthly or annual basis. What, then, Constantine meant when he talked about the "venerable day of the sun" is not real clear, but from the historical perspective, there is nothing to indicate that Constantine moved the Christian's worship time to his regular "sun" worship time. Though I myself have never been SDA either, when challenged with this issue, I did study it as thoroughly as I knew how. My typed notes are 50 pages in length. But I couldn't accept the explanation that Romans 14 and Col 2 excluded the 7th day Sabbath. That is adding words into the text that are neither implied nor explicitly stated. For what that's worth...hope it helps.... | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 457 Registered: 3-2001 |
Barb, The Sabbath is probably the most difficult issue that any of us formers have to come to terms with as we leave. It is at the very core of Adventism--even more so than Jesus Himself unfortunately. We have been taught that Jesus points to the Sabbath (by His example on earth) rather than the Sabbath pointing to Jesus. Can you imagine that? The Sabbath becomes bigger than God. As Hoyster said, this is idolatry in its highest form. That view creates some significant problems as we come to a better understanding of the Gospel. I would encourage you to read Hebrews 4:8-11, which says:
This should be a very familiar passage to you. You have probably heard it used many times as proof that the Sabbath has not been done away with. Now, go back and read all of Hebrews chapters 3 and 4. Read and re-read this passage until its meaning becomes clear. You will see what a difference this passage makes when you understand it in context. There is nothing wrong with the Sabbath--which by the way is the seventh day just as the commandment states. No one (not even the traditions of the early fathers) has authority to change that. God sanctified the 7th day at creation. The questions is, for what purpose did he sanctify it? I believe that the passage I just quoted explains the purpose. It was to point to the rest that He would provide in Jesus. Now that the reality has come, there is no longer a need for the shadow. It has been fulfilled. As I said, there is nothing wrong with the Sabbath. If you choose to observe it as a day unto the Lord as a matter of personal conviction, I say more power to you. However, because of the way we have been socialized, it is very hard for us to observe it in this manner. There will always be an undertone of legalism associated with it, and therfore we will always view it in the light of the Old Covenant. As such, most of us have chosen to distance ourselves from it. What was created as a beautiful symbol of God's redeeming love has been reduced to a myopic focus on the activities of a 24-hour period. Whereas other Christians may choose to observe a dayunto the Lord, we voluntarily give up Sabbath keeping so that we may gain Christ. Like the Apostle Paul, we say:
Knowing Jesus as my Sabbath rest far surpasses any benefit that could ever be obtained by ceasing from "secular activity and thought" (as if any of us ever did this) for a 24-hour period. Hoyster has hit the nail on the head. He has the advantage of having never been Adventist. Those of us who cut our teeth on the Sabbath as the holy grail of Adventism have a much more difficult time seeing it. Resting Completely In HIs Grace (everyday) Doug | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 458 Registered: 3-2001 |
Lest I be mistaken as as being argumentative, allow me to clarify. Just for the record, let me say that I do not believe that the Sabbath has been transferred to Sunday. I believe most Christians worship on Sunday in honor of the resurrection, but it has nothing to do with the Sabbath (which was fulfilled at Christ's death). Those who "observe" Sunday as the Sabbath are just as blinded by the Old Covenant as were the Jews. I don't believe anyone on this forum falls in that category. That is an important distinction to make since one of the primary arguments of Adventism is that "Sunday worshipers" observe Sunday in the same manner that Sabbath observers" observe Saturday. That simply is not true. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2003 |
I post this with fear of sounding defensive, but I really need to clarify. Please don't misunderstand my post as related to the Sabbath...only to the worship time issue which Hoytster mentioned. I don't think the Sabbath has anything to do with worship at all. It had to do with rest. Neither have church fathers tried to associate the Sabbath with worship (at least not to the extent I've read). But they are a source about their worship practices...a completely separate issue from Sabbath practices. I tossed in a couple of things that B has claimed as "proof" that the early Christians worshipped on the Sabbath as well as Jesus and the apostles, but please never hear me associate the 4th commandment with worship. It's about rest. That it became a day they worshipped is separate from the Sabbath commandment itself. But all of that is irrelevant after the cross. In my zeal to be helpful, I guess it's easy to be confusing when I've never observed any "day" and don't recognize how things I say can be mis-understood. My worship is not related to any particular day and it never enters my mind. Neither do I know a single person who thinks "when" they worship has value except the SDAs I know. There may be some who think Sunday is the Sabbath, but I think that mindset is less and less all the time. Some literally read the commandment to say rest every 7th day. (Not every 7th day "of the week"...where there is a right and wrong 7th day) Though many Christians may not recognize the significance of the prefigurment of Christ in the Sabbath, that's growth opportunity and Christ's grace is sufficient to cover it all. My understanding has certainly changed since my time on this forum. I anticipate/hope this will not be the last issue where such realization and deepening of my faith occurs. Hopefully that clarifies any confusion. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 459 Registered: 3-2001 |
Melissa, Thanks for the clarification. I was not implying that you were saying that the Sabbath had been transferred to Sunday. Its just that we have some fairly new members to the forum who are in transition, who may not have shed that form of SDA indoctrination yet. Adventist eschatology places heavy weight on the transfence theory. Therefore, it is a foreign concept for most Adventist to differentiate the Sabbath command from worship--I know it was for me. I have heard several radio evangelists preach the "one day in seven" argument. I don't know how prevalent that is in Christiandom as a whole. I would venture a guess that most Christians do not know why they worship on Sunday--except that it is a day to honor the resurrection. Because it is not an issue for them, I think they would readily accept the "one day in seven" argument as a legitimate response to reconcile the 4th commandment, which clearly states that the 7th day is the Sabbath. I think we're on the same sheet of music. Isn't it great to be able to dialogue without being contentious? This is not the case on many religous forums. I love this place. In His Grace Doug |
