| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
I agree and I try to choose my words carefully, but when it comes to Ellen White, I cannot accept excuses made for her without speaking up. Whenever you get Adventists cornered on Ellen White, they have a few standard excuses. 1) "Well, she was growing. Isn't it nice to know she was growing in the Lord." In response I say we must remember that she credited God (or her angel) with every vision from first to last. 2) "Well, who cares what Ellen White says anyway. I only get my teaching from the Bible." Then, of course in the next conversation, they will always quote Ellen White to prove something. 3) "Well the Bible is full of mistakes & contradictions, too." This speaks for itself. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lynn, well said! You're right; those are the standard excuses. I am so grateful to God for making truth plain to us. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lynn, I accept that you are sincere and loving person, and that you must still have some kind of a heart for people still mystified by Adventism. After all, in being kind to them, we are really being kind to ourselves the way we once were. And the gospel is as much about being kind and forgiving of ourselves as it is about being kind and forgiving of others, is it not? Yes, I said, Ellen White's understanding did grow a great deal during her lifetime. The first question then should be: Is that statement true? Not: Is that statement an excuse? Only after we have determined the truth or falsity of a statement are we in a position to reach conclusions of judgment about it, such as whether or not it is an excuse. Do you dispute the accuracy of the statement? Did she grow a great deal during her lifetime or not? By "growing," I mean, did she come to a deeper understanding of righteousness by faith? Yes, she did. Did she drop her more hare-brained ideas about health, such as her early insistance that hairpieces cause baldness, moral recklessness and "hopeless insanity"? Again, yes she did. In fact, she came to the point that she almost single-handedly "battled the bretheren and won" to allow Loma Linda to move from a folk-medicine-based medical school (teaching that wigs cause insanity because EGW said so) to a science-based one (teaching that there is no scientific evidence that wigs cause insanity, regardless of what EGW has said) so that graduates could practice medicine with, rather than without, licenses -- as the government, prodded by the American Medical Association, was then requiring. In other words, she did grow. And recognizing that statement as a fact, we do not have a choice about giving her due credit. Furthermore, we weaken our witness to our former "pew-mates" if we do not. So being "missionaries to the Adventists" is not only about being diplomatic. It is also about being honest and forthcoming with the evidence. Once we have reached common ground with the Adventists we are trying to win -- and they can begin to trust us that we are not just trying to "rub their noses" in EGW's misdeeds -- then perhaps they will listen to some of our more telling criticisms, because they realize that we do have respect for the truth and love for them, and are not just expressing our emotions or still reacting to our own past traumas. For, having established the truth of that statement, we can now see how it can be either an excuse or an "entering wedge," depending on the motivation of the person who's making the statement and how it's being used. Don't you agree? Jude | ||
| Bruce H |
Ellen White teaches another Gospel. Gal 1:8,9 Let Her be accursed. We must remember that it is God who reveals truth. If you have not found this out you will as you try to reveal truth to Adventist. We must remember that it is God who takes away the vail we must wait for him. For if we do not wait for him then no matter how soft spoken or truth filled we are they will not hear or see. Bruce H BH | ||
| Bruce H |
Jude I agree with you on how we are to work with Adventist. Being diplomatic and patient is very important as well as being honest and forthcoming with the evidence. But If the Holy Spirit is not working on their hearts and we are not in prayer and watching for God prompting we are only going down a dead end. Bruce H | ||
| Lynn W |
Jude, it's obvious she came a long way in nearly every area of her teaching. I don't deny that at all. There's just one problem, though. She claimed that every single vision of hers came from God, from the first to the last, yet we know she had to do much correcting later in her life. This only leaves us with 2 choices that I can see, either she lied from the start, or God had to correct Himself on nearly every issue, whether theology, the sciences, the personal life, or whatever. Since I don't believe the latter, I have to believe the former. Even after all the changes she made, at no time did she ever admit to her lies. To make matters worse, modern Adventists perpetuate the lies by defending her every word. Even those who believe she was growing in her understanding, will never admit she was wrong on anything specifically. When they are cornered to the point of seeing that she was obviouslly wrong, instead of being honest, they fall back on the usual cop-outs. That makes them excuses. One area that Ellen White obviously never matured in was the area of integrity. When dealing with Adventists, I make every effort to use diplomacy & tact, but I draw the line at joining them to perpetuate lies. Don't you agree we all should? | ||
| Cas |
Jude, I agree that Ellen White did progress in her understanding of Righteousness by Faith. I am quoting from Fred Veltman's 8 yr. report on Ellen White's "borrowings". BTW this report I have a copy in condensed form from the Ministry Magazine Dec. 1990. "To be fair to her (Ellen White) and to avoid the misuse of her authority, we must be careful how we represent what she wrote and how we establish what her position on a given subject was. My study of her writings on the life of Christ has given me the impression that some of her views changed through time." "We may not necessarily find her view by simply striking a harmony among all her writings on a given subject. Her latest view might well be a correction or at least a modification of an earlier position.' Some interesting observations from Veltman: "The content of Ellen White's commentary on the life and ministry of Christ, The Desire of Ages, is for the most part DERIVED RATHER THAN ORIGINAL." "I must admit at the start that in my judgement this is the most serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary dependency,(the use of Ellen White's sources) It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and therefore her trustworthiness. "Implicity or explicitly, Ellen White and others speaking on her behalf did not admit to and even denied literary dependency on her part." "Ellen White used a minimun of 23 sources of various types of literature, including fiction, in her writings on the life of Christ." "The question over the "I was Showns" is probably the hardest one to answer." Meaning she copied from others what she said she had in vision. Most of you have heard all of this before. To me it appears to be deceit on the part of Ellen White and the church is perpetuating the problem by refusing to deal with it and keeping the people informed. Why don't the members know about the problems with Ellen White? I guess the answer is obvious. WDYT? |
