| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I think you've pretty much got it figured out, Melissa! Colleen | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2003 |
As Christmas draws nigh, I find myself being very grateful for the gift of this forum. My original motivation for coming here was to gather information related to my custody fight. That has become secondary to exploring the meaning of Christ in my life. This forum is especially valuable for two reasons. One, y'all are so smart, well-educated, and passionate in your beliefs! It's great! Two, I find that I've been influenced more than I suspected by being around Adventism for a decade. I spent that time trying to synthesize SDA beliefs with my own, for the purpose of getting along. I feel that this forum has allowed me to step back from a precipice. I don't always respond with thanks, when one or many of you give me your so-helpful responses. Partly that's because I'm taking time to understand more fully, in part it's because I find myself a little intimidated, feeling rebuked when I've tried to be helpful myself once or twice. Regardless of how I respond, please know that I'm always grateful. You are a wonderful Christmas present. Thanks so much. - Hoytster | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hoyster, your presence, thoughts, and perspective on this forum are appreciated and welcome. Your very gracious and humble comments above challenge me to show more of these Christ-like attributes in my life and at the same time rebuke me for the many times I have failed to be gracious and humble. Please forgive me for the pompousness and combative spirit that sometimes creep into my posts. May you have a blessed Christmas! Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hoytster, thank you for your post above. You are such a great participant on this forum, and I really appreciate your perspective, your thoughts and questions, and your openness. I am sorry we have responded to you in ways that have made you feel rebuffed when you've tried to be helpful. Please don't stay away--I've missed you here, and I've wondered how you and your children are. I continue to pray for you and your kids. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Colleen | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2003 |
Uh, I don't feel THAT rebuked. No more responses along those lines, PLEASE, that really wasn't my intent, and I'm not so wounded or so vulnerable.  My larger, main, and should have been only point, is that this is a great forum for which I'm grateful. Thanks so much for your prayers, Colleen. Thanks for all you do, Chris. - Hoytster | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2003 |
My ex is now trying to get the court to revoke my privilege of taking my son to my Methodist church on Sunday mornings during HER weekends. He is enrolled in an Adventist school, so I figure the ratio of Adventism to Methodism is about 20-to-1, and she is trying to make it 40-to-1 by removing half the occasions for him to go to my church. I need an SDA expert to serve as a witness, to testify that my son is being taught things that are religious beliefs that undermine my son's respect for his father (esp. I cannot be saved because I'm not a Sabbath-keeper). A letter might do; in person (in southern NH) would be better. An authoritative opinion is more persuasive. The ideal would be an ex-SDA minister. Lacking that, a former Adventist would be great. Any ideas? Any names you care to forward? Please post here, or send mail to hoytster2004@hotmail.com. Thanks so much! - Hoytster | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2003 |
I would be happy to write a letter if you need me to...keep me posted. | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi, Pheeki, Thanks for the offer. I think I am all set. Thanks to Google, I found a former SDA who is now a member of the Methodist church, AND the leader of a non-demoninational school, which is the kind of school I'd like my son to be attending. He's going to write a letter. To signify to the court that Adventism is a bit out there, I've been browsing with Google, gathering links to "Adventism is a cult" sites. There are a ton of them out there. A lot of people have put a tremendous amount of energy into their sites. Several people who have written books on or near the subject. I guess I'm impressed (depressed) by the level of adamance. These are people operating from very deep conviction. It substantially exceeds the level of alienation I've seen in other faiths. Up until now, estranged Catholics were the ones I considered to be most hostile to their former churches. Now I think they are mild compared to ex-Adventists (at least, the ones creating web sites and writing books). That makes me think that Adventism is actually dangerous. These ex-SDAs have such conviction, because they know whereof they speak. That said, I cannot go to "This is dangerous for my son and his exposure to Adventism must be stopped." I don't think that it is my place to make that finding. It seems arrogant and wrong, to apply such a label to a church that has millions of decent members. I have long found Adventism obnoxious for its terrible statements about the Catholic church. I'm not comfortable making comments of the same tenor about Adventism. What a mess. - Hoytster | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2003 |
I am glad to hear you have found what you needed. I am at the point that I don't even want to talk to SDA's anymore because it is such a broken record. They are always right no matter what. Good luck and I will pray for your situation. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hoytster, I agree with your convictions about not commenting on Adventism in the same way they comment about Catholics and others. While I agree that it is dangerous in an insidious way, I also agree that you would probably defeat your purpose to be as blunt as you feel like being. I have become more and more convinced that the truth in any area is really only discernable if a person has a heart open to knowing it. No matter how much evidence we present to prove our perceptions, only a person who is open to knowing will actually be convinced. It was the same phenomenon that resulted in Galilao being burned at the stake when he said the earth was not the center of the universe. Of course, we are still left with the charge to speak the truth; we just can't expect that everyone will understand our passion. (And I do feel pasionate about the truth about Jesus and the truth about Adventism!) I continue to pray for your situation. Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hoyster, You have an attorney, correct? I would make him/her aware of the fact that Adventism is out there, I wouldn't fail to mention Waco and Mr. Sniper-Mohammad, that's just me, he will know how to present it. IF you don't have an attorney, I'd sure get one! Ps. 91-He who dwells in the secret placeof the Most High will abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I would be sure all of this controversy didn't steal away my intimate time with God. He promises in Ps. 91 to protect every aspect of our lives if we abide with Him, in knowing Him. All things work together for good to him that loves God. I will continue praying for you also, in agreement with Colleen and anyone else here that God will work it out. So sorry you are going through all of this. Sabra | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks for all your comments! On a related subject... I am finding that my reading about SDA is tainting my religious life: I am REACTING to Adventism as I read the Scripture. It is as though my Bible study sometimes turns into preparation for arguments about SDA, as opposed to bringing me closer to Jesus. As I read my Bible, I'm noting verses relevant to soul sleep or vegetarianism or (especially) the sabbath. I think it is interfering with my spiritual growth, because I'm mentally engaged in a religious argument about Adventist beliefs. Part of me thinks this is appropriate and necessary, because I am going to be my son's primary counter to the doctrine he is learning in his SDA school and church. I have to be prepared, as a responsible parent. Another part of me resents it. I'd rather read the Scriptures for themselves, be IN the Scriptures, instead of being in an argument. I also dislike the idea of a religious debate interfering with my relationship with my son. If he has adopted SDA convictions, then my attempts to change his beliefs may be alienating. So do I just STOP READING about Adventism? That's my instinct. Just let SDA be SDA, and concentrate on my own convictions, try to be in the spirit instead of in argument. Most of you were once embedded in Adventism, where I'm just learning about it from web sites and such. Do you find yourselves "in argument"? What advice would you offer? Thanks, Hoytster | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2001 |
Yes! I thought it was just my analytical nature. but I have experienced the same exact same thing. Especially when I read the New Testament, I find som many things that contradict the things I learned and was taught in Adventism. I thought it was something that would go away after the newness of leaving Adventism passed, but two years later, it is still there. I do believe that it is an obstacle to my growing closer in my relationship with Him. I can't help but believe it has something to do with how I was socialized as an Adventist. It was more important to be "right" than to be in relationship. Maybe subconciously, I'm still trying to be "right." In His Grace (but still growing) Doug | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 216 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ditto. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 203 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hoytster, I have the same problem. I find myself picking apart scriptures because of arguments I've had with B. Every time I read something, I want to come back here and ask how SDAs explain away this verse or that. When I'm sitting in silence, I find myself "arguing" with B about the scriptures I've been reading. Every sermon I listen to in church, I look to disprove the lies he claims about "us" apostates. And as much as I try to trust God to take care of my son, there is a level where I am terrified that my son will some day hate me because he fears I will try to 'kill" him for keeping the sabbath. I am afraid on some level, as you mentioned, he will reject me because I'm not "one of them". I think that's why I am praying so hard for Pheeki. She is doing outwardly on that other forum what I do inwardly. I know how exhausting that battle is ... and though I think she'd have more peace to not go there, how do you escape the battle within your own mind? I offer no advice here, just a "warped" sense of comfort that you are not alone. Inside, I am screaming that I am not that shallow, uncaring person I read about in the SDA literature and hear about from B's sterotypical analysis of everything non-Adventist. I have had the same struggles on reading. Do I just ignore Adventism and pretend it can't come between me and my son or do I prepare for the battle of my son's soul? For me, I found that if I ignore Adventism, I tend to "forget" the potential dangers within the religion. I let my wall down to B and find myself wanting to believe that somehow it will all work out. That is not reality. So, I keep reading to keep my feet firmly on the ground about the nature of the conflicts between us and to hope that one day, the scriptures that I read will indeed not return void when I get the chance to answer the questions of my son. As I said, no advice. I can just relate to your feelings and inner turmoil. Sometimes I feel like two people. I do realize it is a spiritual battle and that deceptive spirit is trying to break down my guard and my resolve to be true to the Spirit's leading. It is such a constant battle. For the last six weeks, I've not allowed B to come over on Saturday. And for the first time in years, I've had some peace on my weekends. I've been able to truly worship without feeling remorseful on Sunday. But there is still that knawing in the back of my mind that it's going to blow up at any moment and I'll lose my son if I don't "do" something. Sometimes, I write out my arguments and then just delete them or save them for another addition later. As I read in scripture (been reading Job lately), I don't think I'm really that alone in my arguments. The subject of the argument may be different, but it all boils down to the same thing. Though I haven't gotten to the end of that book, I know God does restore the years the locust has eaten. Does that mean my retarded daughter will one day be normal, and that some day I won't have to carry the burden of a family alone? I doubt that. But I still choose to trust God even when I feel I'm kicking against the goads trying to know what to do next. It is so hard. So, all that to say, I don't think you're alone. From one non-former to another, I'm right there with you. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2003 |
I've been attending a new members class at the church we have been attending. I always want to contrast all the things I'm hearing with Adventism. Sometimes I feel that I'm focusing more on errors of Adventism than how wonderful the message that i'm hearing is. I also still get the Review (the pulication sent out to SDA's worldwide,) and the regional publication for my part of the country. Sometimes I feel that I need to read these to look for errors or to see what they are up to. But it drives me crazy. There is a short article in the copy that came in the mail today about a former sundaykeeping pastor who wants to send a copy of the magazine "Remember" (as in Remember the 7th day), to every Sundaykeeping pastor in our area. This pastor is a very nice guy,I don't know him personally but I have enjoyed listening to him on the radio .But this drives me nuts! Maybe the reason I keep reading is that I too want to make sure I'm right. I ask myself the same thing. "Should I just stop reading about Adventism?" | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2003 |
I actually did stop reading about Adventism for a time. I felt I continually had to "prove" them wrong and myself right--now that I knew what "right" was! I've found, though, (and this is my personal experience--I'm not making a normative statement here for all people and times!) that I've been able to come back to reading about it without the fight. Don't get me wrong; I feel just as passionately about Adventism's "wrongness" as I ever did, and I feel perhaps even more passionately that the Christian community needs to understand what it's dealing with. I think two things have happened inside me. First and most imporant, I've engaged in really quite a lot of inductive Bible study. Quite literally I've taken to checking cross references on words and subjects I find while reading in a particular book of the New Testament, and I've been discovering the most amazing consistency between the Old Testament and the New Testament--when you see them through the lens of Jesus--and the beauty of Jesus has become more and more clear. I always ask Jesus to guide my study and to help me think his thoughts, know what he wants me to know, and learn what he wants me to learn. I also ask him to help me know him in a new way. I still have moments of "startle" when I see a blatant contradiction to things I was taught. Overall, though, the more I study, the more Jesus emerges from those pages. Second, I've gradually let go of my desire to manage the spiritual outcome of various Adventists I love. I've really had to let go of my desire to be close to certain people that a "should" have a right to feel close to! I've had to realize that God is in charge of the eternal outcome of my family, even of my kids, not me, and I've had to release to him my deep concern and even franticness that they'll be seduced by deception. I've had to literally put those people into God's hands and release to him the right and responsibility of their growth. That has also helped me to feel less "frantic" and argumentative when I read the Bible. I don't have clear answers, but I so understand the problem. For me, even the problem is something I have to give to God and ask him to direct me into deeper and more vulnerable love for him. Colleen | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well once again I think this is one of the side effects. I find myself doing the same things. I too read the Vistor and Review and look for things to prove they are wrong. I do not know why but I do. I will also be happy when I can just throw them out and not read them at all. I do have to say they never let me down when I read them they are full of accepting the sabbath etc. Well I am glad I am not alone. | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2000 |
Wow! Thanks for bringing this up, Hoytster! I have been feeling the same thing for a long time, but have lacked the courage to even give it words. (Even to myself.) It is somehow refreshing to see that I am not alone in this "flaw". My wife has seemed to have a much easier time letting go -- and sometimes gets 'that little look' when she 'catches' me with a Review or Gleaner, etc. This serves to add to my guilt and annoyance toward myself at not being able to just step away from the argument. I, too, long for the time when reading the Bible, sitting in Sunday School class, etc. no longer becomes a 'proving ground' for the wrongness of Adventism. I yearn so deeply to just read the Word and hear God's voice speaking TO ME! And not hear a background din of conflict. CLINGING to the Cross, Den <>< | ||
| Insideoutsider Registered user Username: Insideoutsider Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2002 |
I can relate to all that has been posted. I can say though that after being "out" a number of years, I can underline what Colleen has said about inductive Bible study. Concentrating on the Lord Jesus has given me a heart of love for those who are veiled. But, again that is a process and it takes time, asking the Holy Spirit for help (again and again) but He never fails us. Thats the awesome part. Just on a practical note, I found that it was necessary to take my address on the various magazines that came at first, attach to a sheet of stationary and return to the publishing house, saying only "please don't send this to my home anymore, Thank you." And they stopped, the silence was beautiful! Don't be hard on yourselves, just grow in Him, ask Him for a heart of love toward those who are veiled and it gets easier. And that kind of attitude eventually attracts those who also hunger to know the Lord. The struggles we go through only serve to make us appreciate more fully this gift of grace and freedom. |
