| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2003 |
The other way to get these magazines to stop coming is to offically request *IN WRITING* that your name be removed from Adventist membership. I think they pretty much ignore you unless it's in writing. When we left I wrote a letter asking to have my name removed. Even after writing the letter it took two meetings with two pastors and a phone conversation with a third to get them to act on my request. My wife didn't see the point in going though all the hassel so she just called the pastor and asked to have her name removed, but she never submitted it in writing. As a result we still get the Review, but it now only shows her name and not mine. The Review still drives me nuts too. Chris | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 73 Registered: 8-2000 |
My wife and I submitted letters 'way back in 1999 -- but we are STILL getting the Review and Gleaner. And they have kept finding us even after several moves! It has been somewhat amusing to see how persistent they've been. A few times we've thought we were finally rid of them -- only to have then start showing up in our box again a few weeks later.... I should probably try snipping the labels and mailing them in with a request that they quit sending them to us. | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes we have had our names removed and still get all their junk mail. I am getting better but I still check through them. I just want to get to the point where I can just toss them and not open them up. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2000 |
Like with Mormonism, I think it would better to write a letter of RESIGNATION instead of a letter requesting name removal. This would avoid the problem of them still treating you like a member (or their invoking tactics to persuade you to stay) by contacting you. This also puts you in the driver's seat--controlling the whole process. This resignation letter should be sent by certified mail (signature receipt requested). The letter should request their formal acknowledgement of your resignation within 30 days. It is important to end the letter by briefly stating that you do not wish to have any contact about the matter--your decision is final. Furthermore, you should bluntly indicate that you do NOT want to receive any more church periodicals, church letters, or Conference correspondence effective immediately. It is ridiculous to be continually harassed and not being taken seriously by these people. I helped write a letter of resignation for a relative some months ago as outlined above. It worked very well with no contact and no further mailings. They sent a letter confirming that membership no longer existed. I heartily recommend this methodology. I regret not having done this myself four years ago. I acquired this resignation stance from a former Mormon friend. It works great for them too. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dennisrainwater, I would suspect that your mom is keeping up your subscription. Just a thought. BTW, my aol crashed and I lost your e-mail, so please e-mail me so I can get it back in the address book, THX! Sabra | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2000 |
Actually Sabra, I found out the conference is still sending them based on old records -- our resigations never got through to them. My mom WAS send us the Signs -- but I managed to convince her that was not helping some time ago... I think I've finally gotten the mags stopped for good now. Whew! Den <>< | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 54 Registered: 9-2003 |
Do SDA's have a special talent for hypocrisy? This occurred to me when I was reading a story on this site, about a guy who was praised by his SDA church friends, because the guy brought his son to the SDA school and Sabbath school -- even though the guy raised the tuition by selling illegal drugs. It appears that Sabbath-keeping is THE crucial demonstration of one's love of Christ, if you're an SDA. EGW states that it is required to be a candidate for heaven, right? My son's mother (call her Jane) is teaching him to be a Sabbath-keeper. She doesn't keep it herself, however. She is an obstetrician with a solo practice, and babies need to be delivered seven days a week, and she has never failed to deliver a baby because it is Saturday morning. Is there a special excemption for MDs? I keep wondering who staffs all the SDA hospitals on Saturday? Jane is a hypocrite myriad ways; I could describe violations of all the commandments, except murder and perhaps the one against graven images. This is almost constantly apparent in her routine violation of the second part of the Great Commandment, to love others as ourselves. She is remarkably selfish and has no qualms at all by making demands she would find extremely offensive. This isn't just a rant about Jane, because I fear what will happen when my son gets old enough to detect and (presumably) reject her hypocrisy. My concerns are (1) will he reject her, and (2) will he reject Christ? She is a self-described great Christian, only she doesn't act that way. Will my son react to her manifest hypocrisy by rejecting her, or by rejecting Christianity? I'm not sure he can do the former without doing the latter, given how much emphasis has been placed on the 10 Commandments, including the fifth (honor parents). We have an example of the rejecting reaction in Jane's family: the 22-year-old who died by a self-inflicted gun shot last month -- had reacted to Jane's sister's Historic Adventist beliefs by becoming an outspoken atheist. I would be very sorry if my son did that. Through this site, I've become aware of the high attritiion rate among SDAs. Jane told me that SDA families have a hard time keeping their children in the church. Is it because Jane's hypocrisy is characteristic of SDAs? Or is it because of the burden of investigative judgement and other dark doctrines? How can I help my son cope with his mother's hypocrisy so that he does not reject Christ? - Hoytster | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 218 Registered: 7-2003 |
Your concerns aren't so far off from mine, actually. I have told B over and over that Jonathan will either fear alienating one of us by picking the faith of the other or will reject faith altogether. in his arrogant style, B says he trusts God to teach B the truth and has refused to really address it any further. I did read an article in the Review some time back where a study had been done trying to figure out how to keep their kids in the church. From what the article said, most were leaving altogether, not going somewhere else. It was a study and an appeal to get people back, but it didn't provide any follow-up I could see. There is a local SDA hospital here where B used to work. According to him, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, therefore it is okay to do "good" on the Sabbath, which is involved in hospital work.... I think babies and other emergency stuff are okay for Saturday. Optional surgeries and those that can be worked around should not be done on Saturday. The guy who does IT work for the local SDA hospital works on Saturdays too...apparently, that is also approved by God as doing "good" on the Sabbath. But a non-SDA institution could not expect it's SDA IT employee work on a Saturday. That's how I understand it anyway. B also seems to be extremely hypocritical. I think his worst is bearing false witness ... particularly about "sundaykeepers", catholics and meat eaters. He makes generalizations that are so grossly wrong and arrogant. How he can claim those things are true, even when given numerous examples where he is wrong, is beyond me He has been told this about us and claims I probably just can't see it. He also expects me to make every compromise because his values are "Godly" and to do otherwise would be against his conscience...as though mine aren't. I have come to the conclusion that what B says is truly what he has come to believe from the people he trusts to disseminate such information. He doesn't investigate for himself and can't even conceive his information is incorrect. And he's willing to sacrifice his son for it. My dad took me to church on weekends and my mother rarely did (maybe Christmas Eve). But when I was a teen ager (8th grade maybe) my dad sent me to a Christian summer camp for a week. That week changed my life and for the first time, I had meaning and purpose. My parents were divorced and by the time I was 16, I didn't see my dad that much in a power struggle with my mother over stupid things. My point is that my weekend dad is the reason I have the strong faith I do. He has had 3 marriages, 2 kids out of wedlock and a host of other "non-spiritual" issues. But he set up opportunities for me that made a spiritual impact on me. You CAN have a significant impact upon your son even if it's only weekends. If you actually live it and are involved with him as much as you can beyond visit time (school concerts, etc), those will make a positive impact. If you looked at my parents today, you would assume my mother instilled my spiritual values, but my mother was very bitter against God during my growing up years because of her divorce. She ridiculed me on a regular basis. Maybe that made me rebel all the more "into" religion. YOU CAN make a difference. You set the example. You be one he can count on. You be the one he can ask questions of. And you be the one he can get unconditional love displayed. You'll be the one he trusts when the decisions are hard. That's my experience as a child, for what it's worth. And, having said all that, I'm right there with you....just a few years behind... I want to protect my child too. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2002 |
That's what angers/frustrates/saddens me most. Most of the SDA young people that do leave the church go nowhere! I know and see it firsthand. It's because they're afraid to go to a "Sunday-keeping" church, and they feel better to not be in a church and not have relationship with God at all than to risk the "mark of the beast." I feel so sorry for you both, Hoyster and Melissa. I will keep you in my prayers. It must be so hard to understand, this close-mindedness and dysfunction in the sda church, not having lived it yourselves. I can remember as an sda having disagreements with non-sda Christians about doctrine, and they're looking at me like I had two heads....I now know they just couldn't even understand why it was a big deal/issue for me, and why I was getting so uptight & excited about it. God bless you both! Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 219 Registered: 7-2003 |
You know, there is another side to the story of my dad ... he did try the same thing with my half sister years later, and the results were different. Our time with him was different...and she was raised by a catholic mother and I was raised by a protestant mother. She had a seemingly "wild" streak, and I wanted to be accepted. My point of my story is not that if you do this or that you will get these results, only that you can have a positive impact on the spiritual life of your son. I've seen it first hand ... and I guess that's why I equally fear it so much as well. You're funny, Carol. I couldn't believe the things B wanted to argue about. But I have also realized from scripture (Hebrews, I think...but maybe not) that all the things B wants to argue about are elementary things that should have been moved beyond long ago. And most of us "sundaykeepers" never given them a second thought. But that's what makes us suceptible to SDAs ... unless you're pigheaded like me and refuse to believe everything you've been taught your whole life by these good Godly people is wrong.... And that's why I understand why B argues. He's pigheaded too. :-) Pray for your son Hoytster. Develop a genuine relationship with him ... plant seeds of scripture and ask questions as age appropriate. Then WE have to trust God to draw our children unto him. It is so easy to say to someone else. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Adventists do have a penchant for hypocrisy because they generally do not actually KNOW the truth. They are loyal to ideals and external laws, but they're internally unable to uphold their own standards. They end up rationalizing A LOT because otherwise they would go crazy with guilt. The Sabbath work for medical personnel issue is a long-standing source of internal cynicism. As Melissa mentioned, the practice is rationalized by saying Jesus healed the sick on Sabbath, therefore we must run at least a "skelton crew" on Sabbath to keep the hospitals open, etc. The real bottom line, however, is that Adventists honor doctors more than any other profession. Ellen condoned the medical work and called it the "right arm of the message." She was instrumental in buying and establishing Loma Linda where the SDA med. school, dent. school, pub health school, etc. are today. The other part of this reality is that doctors receive top honors (unofficially, of course) because traditionally they have made the most money. They can, therefore, help fund the church building projects, etc., so they are courted and given leadership roles and deferential treatment. They are "special" because they are not only financially comfortable but they are practicing the profession Ellen helped to establish as perhaps the most important besides that of actually preaching. Most of these dynamics are not acknowledged out loud; they function, nevertheless, powerfully and quietly behind the scenes. Praise God for our equality in Him! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 224 Registered: 7-2003 |
It's true that many Adventist who leave do not go anywhere else for Christian fellowship. They simply "drop out" and sometimes even seem to take on somewhat agnostic views. The odd thing is, I've come to realize that practicing Adventist find it much more acceptable for someone to "drop out" completely than they do for someone to begin worshiping with a congregation of a different denomination. My wife's brother barely goes to church at all and doesn't really observe Sabbath either for that matter. I once heard him argue that Adventism was really more of an ethnic group with it's own heritage, customs, and foods. So I guess he would consider himself to be Adventist by birth, kind of like a non-practicing Jew still considers themselves to be Jewish. Oddly enough, my wife's parent's seem to have no problem with his lack of connection to his religion. They're too busy being furious at my family for daring to be on fire for Jesus outside of Adventism. Something's very wrong with this picture. | ||
| Madelia Registered user Username: Madelia Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am a registered nurse, and am fortunate to have a position as a diabetes educator with Monday-Friday daytime hours. There have been a few occasions where I've helped out with a health fair on a Saturday and my husband doesn't seem to object to that. I know another RN in our church who worked Friday through Sunday night shifts (11 p.m. to 7 a.m.) every weekend so she could be home during the week with her children. I'm sure she made higher pay by working all weekends!! Then I've known a couple of SDA nurses who refuse to work on the Sabbath at all. Never has made any sense to me. I've never worked in a SDA hospital, but always wondered: do they serve meals in the cafeteria? Will they accept money, if they do? How about housekeepers working:is that acceptable? Today my daughter was to be participating in a music festival (she plays violin), where they perform 2 pieces in front of a judge. Somehow I managed to swing it the last 2 years and get her there on a Saturday. But this year my husband refused to let her go. I play piano, and because the teacher is always looking for accompanists she asked me to help with the festival. I was to accompany a few students this morning. However, another pianist had a family emergency this week and is not able to be there later today. So I offered to help out. According to my husband, I'm disgracing God and His Holy Sabbath by doing this. Yuck!! There, I got that off my chest! I'm so sick of this focus on the Sabbath | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 477 Registered: 3-2001 |
Madelia, Its interesting that Adventists endorse people in certain professions (doctors, nurses, etc.)working on the Sabbath, citing the argument that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. However, those individuals readily accept pay for doing the same. So, the real question is, are they doing good or are they sustaining their livlihood? In my opinion, the "good" that Jesus spoke of was doing acts of charity. I am not for a moment advocating that these people should not be paid for their services, I am simply challenging the faulty logic that is used to defend their untenable position. Using their logic, I can think of hundred of professions that "do good" works. Why should exceptions be made for healthcare workers and not for any of these other professions? Would the church support the city street maintenance worker who is helping to plow the streets after a routine snow on a Saturday? Probably not, yet his duties are just as much "good" and have the same "life saving" potential as a health care worker. Do those health care workers limit their "work" to only life saving functions, or do they also preform routine care? As the now famous Johhny Cochran said, "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit." In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2003 |
Madelia, I'm so sorry about your husband's zealous Sabbath-honoring. I keep praying for your kids, for your husband, and for you. Doug, your questions are good. I've also wondered how Adventists can use electricity and gas on Sabbath when people are working in the gas and power companies to keep things going---and I've wondered why an Adventist working in those places would be sinning. Praise God for Jesus--our Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have a better one for you. I know of a man who works at GC. He is a security officer. He says he has to work on sabbath to keep others from going to their offices and working on the sabbath. Have you ever heard such junk. I was there another time for some type of play and sabbath was not over and they had people cleaning durning sabbath hours. Is it ok if it is the General Conference? Oh they still can make my blood boil over such issues | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2002 |
Isn't Legalism a beautiful thing? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2000 |
Terry, Obviously, legalism is never consistent--not even at the GC. My wife visited with a prominent, 88-year-old, SDA man this afternoon at his home. He sadly told my wife, "I don't know if I will be in heaven or not." Here is a lifelong, devout SDA speaking from his heart. His home is saturated with SDA materials from Maxwell, Marcussen, and even the Clear Word Bible rests upon the Sabbath School Quarterly on the kitchen table. One wall proudly displays his completion certificate of a Lay Leadership Training Course. Furthermore, he has been on numerous SDA "Maranatha" building projects in various parts of the world. Truly, he is an "ideal" Adventist in every sense of the word. My wife shared the simple Gospel with him. She quoted the Apostle John, "...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn. 5:24). Also, she shared 1 John 5:11-13 that ends with saying, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." The elderly, SDA gentlemen kept saying, "But, I'm a sinner." He went on to state that IF he carefully confessed EVERY sin, et cetera he might be saved someday. In other words, without sinless perfection, his fate is sealed for annihilation. My heart truly aches for these struggling Seventh-day Adventists. It is difficult to share the Gospel with someone who thinks he knows everything. Thankfully, despite proud hearts, God is calling many people out of Adventism. Many are in the valley of decision for Christ at this very moment. Please join me in praying for them! In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2003 |
What a sad story, Dennis. OK, so suppose you have a born-and-raised SDA who displays basically NO Christian behavior: could it be because she has concluded that her sins are unforgiveable, so she is doomed anyway? And if she's doomed regardless, why make any effort at being a better person? Why not indulge her selfish and crass desires? I know somebody like that (two guesses  ). Last night in Bible study, we were reviewing John 3, including: "Jesus answered, ėVery truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.ė" A couple people in the group offered their belief that the whole "born again" thing is based on this Scripture. True? The idea of being born again is not a big concept in my Methodist church, and it's foreign to me personally. Someone in the study who has spent time among more evangelical folk offered the observation that in some circles, being Born Again is a one-time event, a ticket to heaven that's redeemable indefinitely, regardless of what happens with that person in the future. The person's state is altered, like when she is baptized. To some of us in the Bible study, that was off-putting. The idea that I could make a statement that I've been Born Again, then I'm guaranteed a place in heaven? That seems arrogant. Judgement is God's. For me to make such a statement would be to assume God's perogative. I cannot know such a thing, wouldn't dare to. I can only hope. However... we talked about it, and eventually got enthused about the joy and closeness with God that comes of being born again EVERY DAY. Not a one-time event, but a continuous process. Today, I set aside all I've done in the past, good and bad, and set forth to be Jesus to the people I meet today. Today I will take up my cross and follow Jesus. And tomorrow, and the day after. Joy! It's the opposite of your wife's sad, good SDA friend, Dennis. He's lived what sounds like a super committed life, yet he sorrows over his (probably paltry) sins. I live a much less holy life, and rejoice that my sins are forgiven, and look forward to tomorrow when I'm with Our Lord. You all are better Bible scholars and theologians than I. When someone begins to engage me in a discussion of doctrine, my stock answer is "Love God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength, and my neighbor as as myself --- that's enough challenge for me!"  As far as I'm concerned, the Catholics are welcome to worship Mary, and the SDAs can worship Ellen and Saturday, etc. -- and I'll hope and pray that they keep that Great Commandment. Surely Mary and Ellen (and Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy) would approve! The rest is footnotes, in my humble untrained opinion. Sometimes I think that a hold-over from your SDA background is an over-focus on doctrine. Trying to justify the Sabbath-idol and the rest of the SDA cant required real scholarship, and you're in the habit! Engaging in arguments over doctrine; being right; coming up with proof-texts to "win" over their proof-texts. I chalk all that stuff up to mysteries that will be resolved when we get our reward, or not, as He wills. I'm sorry that your wife's friend is so lacking in confidence of his salvation, Dennis. For some reason, I think he's a lock! We can never know, can we, but here's hoping. I know there's a point in there somewhere. - Hoytster | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hoyster, God requires perfection for us to get into heaven. We either attempt to find that perfection in ourselves or we find it somewhere else. The danger is when one finds unorthodox belief systems so attractive, so neat and exclusive, that he never deals with the biblical Christ. People can respond to an ideology or group as a substitute for Christ. We must not be merely "hope-so" Christians, but rather we need to be "know-so" Christians. Jesus clearly stated that, "...that unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Truly, the "born-again" Christian is the only kind there really is. We become entirely a new creation in Christ at the point of regeneration by his Spirit. We are adopted as sons and daughters into God's wonderful family. We can fully trust Jesus as our Substitute and Savior. The good news is that God never unadopts his children--even when they stumble and seriously fall (once saved, always certain). They will never fall totally and finally from the grip of His hand. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give [present tense] eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30). All whom he justifies he glorifies. Praise God, none of His elect is ever lost! We persevere because God preserves (keeps) us. The Apostle Paul declares, "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NIV). In His grip, Dennis J. Fischer |
