| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bill, that's wonderful news! It's so powerful when kids (of all ages, actually!) see that God is specifically caring for them in ways only He could accomplish. How was it on Sunday for you and for her? Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Hi Colleen! It was great! She found several kids there that she knew along with a couple of teachers that she recognized. It helps to make her feel more at home. We also found out that quite a few kids from Sierra get together on Friday nights with the kids from another big church up here to jam, study and pray. She wants to go see what they do, so she's starting to get connected. How are things with the fires? Pretty much out? Fire is one thing we don't have to worry about too much up here. We had six inches of snow last weekend, and about a foot of snow this weekend! Bill | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The fires are "pretty much out." I'm not sure whether or not there are still vestiges of the Old Fire in the San Bernrdino Mountains, but they've allowed everyone (I think) to return home now. Last week Lake Arrowhead opened up. They're saying this is the worst disaster the state of California ever has had, and we don't have to make up our "fire days" because this was declared a federal disaster, not merely a state one. Praise God for your daughter's experience at church on Sunday! With prayers for you and yours, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Chris, funny you should mention the line theSDA's perpetuate about them going to be tortued by the Sunday-keepers. When I told my mother I havebeen attending a local Lutheran church she totally came unglued and screamed at me in a question, "Are you takeing classes on how to pursucate Sabbath-keepers now, too?" I never expected my mild mannered mother to respond with such a suvere reaction. I had been hopeing to hear, "Oh, I'm so happy you have found a group of Christians that you like to worship with" but, we all can pretty much agree that our SDA loved ones will not have that response. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 482 Registered: 3-2001 |
Can anyone shed any light on the "Word of Faith" ministry. I attended a church today that appears to be a congregational fellowship, but the pastor is also sits on the board of the national "Word of Faith Ministry." Here is their statement of beliefs:
I do not necessarily have a problem with any of them, but the last three make me wonder if there is more to them than what meets the eye--especially the last one.} The fellowship that I am currently attending meets most of my needs, but there are a few important needs that aren't being met. This fellowhip apears to have the ability to meet some of those missing needs, but compromises on some of the needs that my current fellowship meets. Has anyone else decided to join yourselves to two separate bodies? Any input/feedback is welcomed and appreciated. Thanks. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2003 |
Googling around: This one is very down on WOF: http://www.gospeloutreach.net/whatwordfaith.html This isn't positive either: http://www.discernment.org/wordfaith/WOF.htm | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Doug, The Word of Faith (Word Faith) movement has some very strong beliefs in the unique particulars you noticed above. Every believer is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit upon conversion. The Word Faith teachers are adamant that the gift of Tongues must be manifested in a believer as the primary evidence of the baptism of fire. Healing and prosperity go hand-in-hand. In the Word Faith movement, healing and prosperity for the believer are hinged on the words the believer uses to request those from God. In the Word Faith movement, God is bound. He is NOT FREE to work miracles in a believers life. The believer's use of words can "unleash" God's power resulting in the blessings of healing, finances, or whatever is being prayed for. Once the believer releases God so that He can bless the believer, God does not have a choice. He MUST bless the believer. This movement is the most well-known for viewing God as the Ultimate Vending Machine. The leaders are prone to receiving messages directly from the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. If you have not been healed or financially blessed, the leadership can be EXTREMELY ABUSIVE spiritually. They also have received messages from God that squarely CONTRADICT some of the other of their "fundamental" beliefs. This brings into question every one of their beliefs. It is not "faith" based as most of us would understand faith. The "faith" of the Word Faith movement is the proper use of words by the believer. It is very works oriented (in terms of prayer and language) and is severely abusive for those believers who God has allowed to remain quadriplegic, blind, deaf, heart-diseased, etc. In terms of the healing aspects of the movement, they can easily be confused with Christian Science (The First Church of Christ Scientist of Mary Baker Eddy.) Beware the Word Faith movement. I personally believe it is a snare of satan. After all, if someone is dumb (unable to speak) they'd never make it in that movement. They would truly be the bottom class of individuals in the movement. Well, that is, of course, unless they're healed! Steve | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hank Hannegraf has done some really good shows on word of faith and his website might have some articles you can look up (equip.org). It is pretty heretical as has been mentioned above in the aspect that God is like a vending machine...push the right buttons and you can have anything you want. Some are blatant...send us $1,000 and God will turn it into $10,000 for you. Now God can do that, but you don't give to receive and that is the premise of their "giving" scheme. There is a book by Hanegraff called "Counterfeit Revival" which hits on some of the more popular WOF leaders. Some are pretty subtle ... others are more blantant. Benny Hinn is coming to town and billboards are up...he's a biggie in the WOF movement. It is also different in that it is not limited to a denomination. However, most seem to be of a more charasmatic persuasion. Beware indeed. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 231 Registered: 7-2003 |
Doug please go to a local library and check out the book "Christianity in Crisis" by Hank Hanegraff before going any farther into this group. Conterfeit Revival is good as well, but Christianity in Crisis is specifically about the Word Faith movement. In is indeed heretical. The teaching is that words are containers and faith is the force they contain. If you say, "That's so funny I'm going to die laughing" then you have released negative energy into your life and you may indeed suffer something bad. If you say, "Wallet, you're big and fat, your full of $100 bills, I've never been so rich" then that's what you'll get (I'm paraphrasing actual things said by well know word faith teachers). Under this system if you are sick it is becasue you do not have enough faith. If you are poor it s becasue you do not have enough faith. Both conditions are considered to be a sin. I know a couple, good friends from grad school, that recently came out of Adventism and went straight into a Word Faith church. Although they are joyful to be released from Adventism is some ways I fear they are in another kind of bondage. When my friend recenlty had mastcitis while nursing, her church came to her house and prayed for her. She told me later that she felt so ashamed and guilty becasue it didn't get better right away and she had to go to a doctor. She knew it was because she didn't have "enough" faith. Now she trys to only go to an alternative medicine doctor. Her husband also seems to have bought into the idea that when you donate money to the church or to a preacher, it is "seed money" that will grow a hundredfold and ultimately make you rich. So the more money you give the more money you will get. So faith combined with heavy giving ultimately makes you rich in this life in this world. Benny Hinn once said something to the effect of "I'm sick of hearing about streets of gold in Heaven, I won't need it then, I want gold now." Add to this some other bizarre Mormanish teachings about God being like a man with physical body (about 6' 2" if I remember correctly), Adam being a little God, the original god of this world, and Jesus having to complete the atonement in Hell by being tortured there by demons and you have something approaching a cult if not an outright cult. To be fair, some Word Faith churches dwell on these aberrant doctrines more than others, but then some SDA churches are more abberrant than other too......the point is, spiritual growth is a lot easier in the absence of such problematic teachings. Chris | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 570 Registered: 7-2000 |
Doug, you indicate that you have a problem with the last 3. Just wanted to clarify that not all charismatic type churches teach that "being filled with the Spirit" equals "speaking in tongues". Also, there are some churches that believe in miraculous healing, and praying for that healing, but hold to the balanced view that praying for someone doesn't guarantee they will be healed. There is no fault put on the one praying or the one being prayed for. The Word of Faith movement is off base. But, I can't recommend "Counterfeit Revival" at all. Hanegraff clearly has a prejudice against anything that he perceives as charismatic. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 233 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lydell, to be fair, Hanegraff is ordained through a charismatic organization (Calvary Chapel), and succeeds a well known charismatic leader (Dr. Walter Martin). He is not a cessationist and disagrees with those who say some gifts of the Spirit completely disappeared with the apostles. He frequently recommends Calvary chapel churches to his callers as well as some Pentacostal churches as well. He does not believe that speaking in tongues is *THEE* evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but allows that it may be *AN* evidence. To be even-handed I have to sya that I think Hannegraff has some problems related to the finances of his ministry and the way he deals with people, but I don't think it's accurate to say he is against anything charismatic. Chris | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2000 |
Whew! A lot of mentions to Hank Hanegraaff. I must mention: Walter Martin did all the original research for the materials Hanegraaff now touts under his authorship. He did not do the research. He stole the materials from Martin. His first two books after he took over CRI after the death of Walter Martin, Christianity In Crisis, and Counterfeit Revival were the work of Martin. Just as I would never suggest to anyone to go to the SDA church to learn about the Trinity, I would never suggest anyone read Hanegraaff on this subject. There are too many good materials on the subject. Some are available through the ministry of Martin's daughter and son-in-law on the Walter Martin website, I'll have to post the address later as I don't seem to have it quickly available. By the way Chris, Martin was not ordained by a charismatic group. He was an ordained Baptist minister. Martin always recognized the three branches of Christianity that taught the fundamental historical truths of the Christian church, Orthodox/Catholic, Protestant and Charismatic churches. Although there are definitely problems with the Catholic and Charismatic branches, Martin chose to recognize them as fellow Christian brethren. Martin was definitely spirit-filled. He spoke frequently in a charismatic church in Southern California. He was about as Protestant as any minister I've ever known. Hanegraaf's moves after Martin's death were quick and he left the Martin family completely out of any considerations regarding the continuation of Martin's ministry. He has since changed CRI (Christian Research Institute) into a very different organization than Martin had ever intended. It appears that they teach apologetics on cults and the occult. However, it is just a front for Hanegraaff's personal agenda. Steve | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2000 |
The official Walter Martin website can be found at: http://www.waltermartin.org/ Yes, Hanegraaff is anti-charismatic. Walter Martin was definitely not anti-charismatic. Hanegraaff is interested in shooting the wounded soldiers in the body of Christ. Martin's ministry was one of "binding up the body of Christ." Steve | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 234 Registered: 7-2003 |
Steve, to clarify I did not say Martin was ordained as a charismatic. I said Hannegraff was ordained as by Calvary Chapel, a charismatic denomination. I said Martin was a charismatic leader because of his defense of the charismatic movement and his rejection of cessationism. One other thing I would add to this discussion to provide clarity: The Word Faith movement should NOT be viewed as synominous with the charismatic movement. However, I believe there is a danger that it will begin to be viewed in this way unless someone stands up and exposes the errors that are being taught within Word Faith. Chris | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2003 |
what is cessationism? Is that the belief that the gifts of the spirit given to the apostles aren't available to believers of today? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 235 Registered: 7-2003 |
Leigh you are correct. Cessationism is the belief that certain "authenticating" gifts of the Spirit (primarily prophecy and toungues) ceased with the death of the last of the apostles. I personally find this to be more of an argument from reason than from scripture, but there are certainly many different views on this within the pale of orthodoxy. Chris | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 221 Registered: 7-2000 |
Cessationism teaches that the miraculous gifts are no longer in operation. Gifts such as healing, especially prophecy as the Bible is a finished book, tongues and other supernatural gifts. This class of gifts was referred to, in the Bible, as 'attesting' works. With the completion of the Bible and the successful establishment of Christianity, somewhere around the end of the first century these gifts were no longer needed. I tend to agree, although I do think that the Holy Spirit may bring them back. I don't find anywhere that there is a specific list of gifts that are set in stone and won't change. My impression is that the Spirit gives whatever gifts are needed for a certain time. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 483 Registered: 3-2001 |
Thanks all for the information. I had my suspicions once I saw the focus on prosperity and healing. I also was aware before I went that this group places a significant amount of emphasis on material prosperity and earthly success. It is a shame that their focus is off target because they have an awesome youth program that my son would definitely benefit from. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Chris, I fully agree. The Charismatic movement and the Word of Faith movement are two very different animals. Thanks for pointing that out. Steve | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sorry if you have all now finished talking about this, but I have just spotted this thread. There is a denomination here (Hungary), called the Faith Church, which is pretty well Word of Faith influenced. They certainly have some cultic features. They seem to have started off pretty well, but gone wrong as they grew bigger. My friend Gyula was with them for a while, before they stopped him being a house group leader because he was originally saved in a Pentecostal church (wrong ěspiritual backgroundî ń anything that is not them is a wrong spiritual background). That was before he went to the Adventist Bible College, so itís no wonder he was confused. Anyway, the Faith Church grew very big very quick, and they certainly suffer from an elitist mentality and spiritual pride. It seems to me they emphasise a sort of ěgospelî which appeals to the flesh. I have been to a couple of their outreaches, and the message is, ěCome to Jesus and you will be blessed. You will be rich, healthy, happy and beautiful.î (OK, I made the last one up). So what about repentance then? Anyway, a lot of people then end up getting hurt when it does not quite work like that! They seem to use a lot of Old Testament examples to support this view, and they certainly push tithing in a big way. Like Deuteronomy 28 teaches that if you obey the law you will be blessed, if you break it you will be under a curse. The problem with this is that it is Old Covenant, so they fall into the same sort of error as Adventism by not making a distinction between the covenants. The New Covenant does not say keep the law and you will be blessed. In fact, it even includes things like, ěDo not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to youî (1 Peter 3: 12). I have seen people who have accepted this sort of teaching get really mixed up when trials come along, and they always do sooner or later. We have had problems in our church (denomination and this congregation) with people from this movement sheep-stealing. They claim they are the best church, their main leader has the ěanointingî and God is going to bring revival to Hungary through them, so everyone had better join them. They know they are right and they donít listen to any counter arguments. Sound familiar? Bye for now, Adrian |
