| Author |
Message |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 567
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 4:57 pm: |     |
Conniegodenick, The Methodist church from what I understand is very similiar to the SDA expecially in its structure of top down politics, etc. from what I understand as well as some emphasis on certain doctrines, although with a bit different understanding. I believe this is because EGW came from the Methodist church and so the Methodist was her point of reference as to how a church needs to be run, etc. She got kicked out of the Methodist church for preaching date-setting of when Jesus would return. At least the Methodists were right about that one. I'll give them two thumbs up for kicking her out. Now maybe the SDA should do the same thing. But, then there would be no SDA church so instead people learn it on their own and quit and find forums like this one. |
Conniegodenick
Registered user
Username: Conniegodenick
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 7:22 pm: | |
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I will just hope and pray that I am led to the right church for me to grow. I emailed a Nazarene church yesterday--their statement of beliefs seemed reasonable although I really don't know much about them--just remember a Nazarene guy in medical residency with me who was very Christian.
Dennis, sounds like you have been all around Spartanburg. The doctor who stood up for you had to be either Moody, Denler, Lovett or Whittaker. Those were the only SDA doctors here for years. My ex-husband and I taught in the FP department at the local hospital with Lovett and Whittaker for years until I left and W. retired.
Wish me travel mercies--I am taking my 2 older girls to Italy for 12 days leaving Wednesday!
Connie |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 245
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 7:33 am: | |
Connie, you might be disappointed in the Nazarenes. They tend to be very law oriented, much like the Methodists. Still, there are exceptions............
Joel, Hi! Nope, there is someone else on here from the metro Sac. area. You're up around Wheatland, if memory serves me right. I'll keep you posted on anything I hear in the Auburn area. The concert is July 17 with two shows, one at 5p.m., the other at 7 or 8 p.m. Maybe I'll come down to Grace Fellowship for morning services and to say 'Hi' and then on from there?!
Bill |
Ladylittle
Registered user
Username: Ladylittle
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
That other person around Sacramento might be me. I posted a question about former adventist groups around here a few weeks ago.
BTW, life is really challenging for me right now. I'm seeking to follow where God leads, my husband is doing the same, and that seems to be leading us in diametrically opposed directions right now. Yet, God is not the author of confusion so something else must be getting mixed up. It's pretty stressful. Please pray for us.
Mary |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
The Methodists are not law-oriented. I don't know why Connie's Sunday School calss reacted that way, but it is not typical, and it is not correct.
The official United Methodist Church web site is umc.org. If you google that site looking for "10 commandments" (and "ten commandments") you get a total of six hits, at least two of which are movie reviews, none of which imply that they are key Methodist doctrine, one of which includes:
ěJesus pulled the 10 Commandments into two commandments: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. For him, the key to confident, faithful living was found in relationships. He called his disciples to tend to their relationships with God and neighbor,î Christopher said.
The work "commandment" does not appear on the 3-page statement of basic Christian affirmations.
There are 11 hits on "new convenant", however, including:
"Through faith in Jesus Christ we are forgiven, reconciled to God, and transformed as people of the new covenant."
and
'John Wesley described his own experience by saying, "I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death."'
This link:
http://www.umc.org/frames.asp?url=http%3A//www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp%3Fact%3Dreader%26item_id=1888&loc_id=9%2C10,38
takes you to a short article "Why worship on Sunday?" Another article says "Keep the Sabbath; it doesn't matter if it is Saturday or Sunday, or (in the pastor author's csae, Monday). The point is to recharge your spiritual batteries by devoting a day to the worship of God, which can be done on any day.
It does not say anything explicit about the new convenant overturning the law. Why not? Because "the law" is not a concept that has great valence with Methodists. It is so NOT legalistic, that Methodist doctrine doesn't bother to explain why. To a former SDA, there has to be some proof that the law was nailed on the cross. To a Methodist, it's a given.
I was raised with the beliefs that I had to love God; I had to love my neighbor, by applying the Golden Rule; that gambling should be avoided in all forms (hence I do not invest in stocks); and that Methodists should not be involved in the sale of alcohol. That is a pretty short list of do's and don't's. EGW would surpass that number on the first page of her monthly commentary. 
Connie, the Methodists you encountered do not know their own theology. You should speak with the pastor, get straight the fact that the church has it straight, then lead a course on the New Convenant. God probably took you to that church to proclaim His message. Based on my experience in this forum, I believe that ex-SDAs are especially well qualified for this task, because versed in the Bible and being taught the importance of right doctrine. Teach our Methodist brothers and sisters; they need your wisdom.
- Hoytster |
Conniegodenick
Registered user
Username: Conniegodenick
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 6:51 pm: | |
REALLY appreciate your comments Hoytster. I think I will do as you suggested. Especially since the lady I know who attends there seems to have her theology pretty straight. Thanks so much for caring enough to take the time to write. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 8:43 pm: | |
Connie,
Adventist, Methodist, and Nazarene theology is largely Arminian. They do not believe that there is eternal security in Christ. Therefore, they believe one can become "unadopted" (disowned or thrown out) from God's wonderful family. Like in our SDA past, we could lose our salvation several times a day (a roller-coaster religion).
Consequently, these Arminian churches teach the NEUTRAL-will theory. A neutral free will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. If there is no prior inclination, desire, or bent, no prior motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made? We cannot choose what we do not desire. An important teaching of Jesus is found in the Gospel of John. "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (John 6:65).
Unless heaven does something first, we would never choose Christ. Our fall is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in our hearts can bring us to faith. Let us make our "calling and election sure." All whom He justifies He glorifies. None of the elect can ever be lost. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 84
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 6:24 am: | |
Connie, I'm glad you found my comment valuable. Please let us know if you end up helping those Methodists understand their religion!
Dennis, I had to look up Arminian. Here is what I got from dictionary.com:
The Arminian doctrines are: 1. Conditional election and reprobation, in opposition to absolute predestination. 2. Universal redemption, or that the atonement was made by Christ for all mankind, though none but believers can be partakers of the benefit. 3. That man, in order to exercise true faith, must be regenerated and renewed by the operation of the Holy Spirit, which is the gift of God. 4. That man may resist divine grace. 5. That man may relapse from a state of grace.
The fifth point speaks to your assertion, which you apparently disdain.
I have to say that I find that point fitting. I have a problem with people who have declared at some point in their lives "I am saved" and then proceed to be adulturers and thieves, confident in their salvation, so what the hell?
I think that the Methodist position would be that we are saved by grace, not works, but the works should flow from the grace, so the adulturer has apparently fallen from grace. God's grace is still offered freely; the adulturer has chosen to reject it. God asks for the adulturer's repentence, defined as an admission of sin and a dedication to a new sinless life.
The tricky part comes up because we all sin all the time, so are we ever in a state of grace? "No, you do not look fat in that dress."
The term "Arminian" does not appear on umc.org, the Methodist web site. The following does, in a section headed "Distinctive Wesleyan Emphases":
"Grace pervades our understanding of Christian faith and life. By grace we mean the undeserved, unmerited, and loving action of God in human existence through the ever-present Holy Spirit. While the grace of God is undivided, it precedes salvation as "prevenient grace," continues in "justifying grace," and is brought to fruition in "sanctifying grace."
Another article from the web site has:
"Today Holy Communion must be viewed within the larger context of United Methodist theology. In accord with biblical and Christian teaching, we believe that we are sinners, constantly in need of divine grace. We believe that God is gracious and loving, always making available the grace we need. Grace is God's love toward us, God's free and undeserved gift. Several words describe how grace works in our lives. Prevenient grace is that which "comes before" anything we can do to help ourselves. Although we are all bound by our sinful nature, grace gives us enough freedom of will to be able to respond to God. In truth, all grace is prevenient-we cannot move toward God unless God has first moved toward us. God seeks us out, pursues us, calls us to come into the loving relationship that we were created to enjoy. Convicting grace makes us conscious of our sinfulness and urges us to repentance. Justifying grace forgives and puts us into right relationship with God. Sanctifying grace enables us to grow in holiness of life. Perfecting grace molds us into the image of Christ. The grace of God is made available to us through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and works in our lives through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit."
I conclude that you are mistaken, Dennis, when you lump the Methodists into a group of denominations that teach NEUTRAL-will theory. God seeks us out. He is a loving God, not neutral.
"Prevenient grace" is taught in the Methodist church. It is the grace that comes before, God's freely given gift bestowed before we ARE, long before we choose. Praise God.
- Hoytster
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 574
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
I think the reason I have been so drawn to Lutheran is because with the exception of the most horrendous of people (Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussian, Caligula, etc.) the Lutherans really want and believe in Gods grace and forgiveness as an ongoing state all the time for everyone. They strongly teach that if we live as the Pslamist taught with a prayful heart then we will stay in the state of forgiven grace so if the unfortunate happens ans sudden death comes to a person, well, they were covered and forgiven for even sins not repented of and not even remembered. It is so different from Adventist. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 261
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 1:58 pm: | |
I have struggled a lot with these questions of grace and whether or not we can "fall from it". I'm beginning to believe that this issue, as with others, is a paradox.
First, Romans 7 describes in great detail the condition of a person whose spirit has been awakened by the Holy Spirit but who still realizes that he sins hopelessly. Romans 7:14 actually says, "I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." And this is in the context of having died to sin and the law. The question I have is, how can we, in Christ, be dead to the law and to sin yet still be unspiritual? Are we saved, or aren't we?
There are some great texts in other books that lend insight into this "problem". 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 has Paul addressing the church as "brothers", yet he says he can't call them spiritual because they are still wordly. They are, in other words, Christians--born again, even--yet they are not living as Christians. He proceeds to call them to repentance and reformation, but he does not hint that they have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:16-17 also enjoins people to live by the Spirit instead of by the sinful nature because they conflict with each other. Similarly, Hebrews 5:12-14 states that the readers should be teachers by now, but they are still infants needing to be taught elementary truths all over again. If people live on milk, the author says, they'll be infants and not acquainted with "teaching about righteousness."
In none of these passage, however, is there a suggestion that the offender has fallen from grace or had lost salvation. They are not growing; they may be refusing to mature, yet I believe that God continues to pursue and call those who have accepted him.
Hebrews also contains several warnings about falling away, contrasting unfavorably the fate of one who rejects Jesus with that of one who rejected Moses. (see Hebrews 10:26-29)
Jesus' parable about the seeds (Matt. 13) has helped me. The seeds that fall on rocky ground did sprout and grow plants rapidly, but because they put down no roots, they withered and died when the heat came. Similarly, the seeds that fell among the weeds (the cares of the world) grew up, but the concerns of living choked them.
I believe that we can be absolutely confident that our salvation is secure. I suspect there may be some question as to whether or not some apparent Christ-followers really are surrendered to him. Perhaps not being fully surrendered is behind their wilting or being choked to death by life's cares and troubles.
On the other hand, Paul literally uses the term "fallen away from grace" when he talks about people who have known Christ but who turn back to the law. "You have been alienated from Christ," he says. (Galatians 5:4)
The parable of the shepherd going out to find his lost sheep portrays Christ's attitude about us. That sheep strayed away from the fold; it did not recognize its "sin" and go back to the shepherd; rather, the Shepherd went looking for it and brought it back. I believe that even those who fall from grace by turning back to the law are pursued by the Holy Spirit if they have truly belonged to Christ.
I believe that God's sovereignty "owns" those who belong to him and claims them, pursuing them when they wander. Somehow, at the same time, the pursued person also has the freedom to respond to the Holy Spirit or not. In some way, sovereign grace is 100% true, and our freedom to choose is also 100% true.
I know that I feel security in my salvation that I never experienced before. In fact, the Spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are sons of God. (Romans 8:15-16) Yet I simultaneously feel compelled (the nudging of the Spirit) to surrender and to obey Jesus--even though I don't always respond as completely as God is asking me to surrender.
Somehow both the eternal, sovereign, prevenient grace of God and the call to surrender are equally true. Praise God He is faithful.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 8:48 pm: | |
Hoyster,
To fully understand the contrasting issues relating to Arminianism and Calvinism, simply use your favorite search engine and enter "Arminianism" and "Calvinism" separately. You will be able to access scores of pages, relating to these topics, in this manner. Obviously, some websites are better or more comprehensive than others. However, this method will greatly expand your understanding about these historic and soteriological issues. The Christian world is predominantly Arminian in their doctrinal focus today. Calvinists are indeed a minority worldwide.
Theologically, Armenianists include the Adventists, Catholics, Methodists, Nazarenes, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and many others. On the other side of spectrum, Calvinists include Baptists, Dutch Reform churches, many community churches (e.g., Grace Community Church pastored by Dr. John MacArthur; People to People Radio Ministries with Bob George; Back to the Bible International Ministries with Dr. Woodrow Kroll), Bible churches, Evangelical Free churches, Bereans, Presbyterians, and many others.
The Apostle John writes, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE" (1 John 5:11-13). Indeed, our eternal security in Christ is not presumption as Adventists like to say. The assurance of our salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts.
In His grip,
Dennis J. Fischer |
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