| Author | Message | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, I agree with you and enjoyed what you had to say. I think that even when Jesus talked about his coming that where the eagle gather there wil the carcus be has a spiritual interpetation for fulfillment. Other wise if the world earth is burnt to a crisp the carcuss would all be but ashes. And the rapture would have physical bodies flying in the air and going through literal walls. I believe in what the bible says it's just most peoples interpetation and the moral majority view that has me concerned. Most are all waiting for something to happen physically while missing out on there spiritual fulfillment. The way I see it we are to live with Jesus now by forsaking the world and earthly things. That could puts us into the third heaven while still in this body that we share with Jesus in His coming. After we physically die we recieve a body that is spirit and incorrupable and go imeditately into the new heaven that is waiting for us to enter. To me this makes not only sense but makes scripture true in fulfillment for the here and now. Acts 1:11 is the only scripture that leads us to think Jesus will Himself in the flesh return to the earth. But one translation says that He will return in like manner. That leaves room for a spiritual interpetation and fulfillment. Right after Jesus assended the church was born putting Jesus' physical body on the earth. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Brad, of course there are spiritual fulfillments to Jesus's promises about being with him forever, never dying, etc. But metaphors do not equal prophecies. In Steve's post above he listed a great many metaphors Jesus used to make a point that his disciples would understand with increasing clarity after Pentecost. Prophecy and promises, however, are not simply metaphor. When the angel told the disciples that Jesus would return as they had seen him go, that was not a metaphor. That was a promise. When John says in Revelation 1:7 that he is coming with the clouds and every eye shall see him, that is not a metaphor. That statement meshes with the angels' statement in Acts 1, and it reinforces a reality: every eye shall see him. Further, it meshes with the statements in 1 Thessalonians 4 that describe Jesus physical return in the clouds. We cannot dismiss these promises as metaphors describing something spiritual, not physical. And Paul's prophetic remarks about our resurrections bodies being spiritual bodies cannot be intepreted to mean there will be no literal physical reality. He says we will "bear the likeness of the man from heaven," (1 Coprinthians 15:49) and we have written accounts of the physical reality of Jesus after his resurrection. They are "spiritual bodies" because they are not like our bodies now which are designed to exist within the limits of three dimensions. Further, Paul is clear that we will be resurrected, and Jesus taught we would be resurrected. Revelation and 1 Thessalonians also talk about the resurrection. That is something different from our spirits going to be with the Lord after we die. I agree that many people miss the spiritual realities while waiting for something physical to happen. This problem, it seems to me, is solved when we accept the Holy Spirit into our hearts after we accept Christ. That new birth brings spiritual life and reality to us now, while we're still in our "sinful flesh". And that reality also convinces us that more is to come; we will ultimately be redeemed both physically and spiritually, and we will physically and spiritually be eternally with our Lord. Praise God for eternity! Colleen | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Collen, There are people that say Jesus will stay in the cloud and that is where we will meet Him as 1 Thess. 4:17 says. Then in Acts 1:11 it says that Christ will return like they saw Him go. That would mean that Him would return in the same physical body to the same physical place. And if every eye would see Him on the mount of Olives that would mean every one in the world would have to be there to see Him. Even every blind person that has an eye. What about someone who has no eyes at all. Just though I would give you a hard time, hope that you will forgive me but these are the things that go through my mind in trying to decide if I am willing to change my view. Someone wrote on the website that every eye could mean eye of desernment, and to see Him would mean to know Him and appear could mean reveal as in hidden manna. I'm not afraid to have faith in something that is not mainline, if it sits right with my heart and mind. But in no way do I want to be decieved so pray for me and I'll do the same for all who see things differently than me. As long as we love each other as Christ loved us that is all that will count in this life. When we do that we fulfil His commandment and are rewarded for loving Him. Wow awesome the greatest reward that one can recieve. | ||
| Marykay (Marykay) |
Angie At times when my husband was trying to reform me I felt as tho God had forsaken me. Why did I have to go thru all that antagonism over a religion? Where was love for one another. Than I realized how the devil was working. As far as the ac have you ever considered one was egw herself? I think there will be many. Anyone that would cause so much strife hundreds of years later thru her books can not come from Christ. Oops sorry was that wrong of me to say that? But she has caused a lot of trouble in my marriage also. Keep your eyes toward Christ. All things will work out. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Marykay,Have I ever wondered about egw? YES!So was your husband trying to reform you back to sda or the other way around?You know what I reliezed today[partly b/c of the sermon at church]was that I hadn't really gave it over to the Lord,I thought I had,but had I,there wouldn't be so much arguing going on here.I would say little smug things about egw and he would about [everything]but today is a new day and I really feel that I have now.So where are you and your husband now?The funniest thing,my husbands friend from work just called,he is now going to church with Jerry,but he was just telling me how 2 religions in a home can break it up,and was tring to convience me that sda is good,that they go by the Bible alone,and that when they read from egw yesterday,he put it down,and asked me if he could be a sda without reading or believing egw.This church is considered Historic SDA's so my answer was no.But he still wants to go on saturday b/c it says so in the Bible,and wants to have a study here,so that I can show him different.He already has the arguements that the sda's have in just a few weeks of studing with them!So pray that I can,no the holy spirit,can lead me to the scriptures to show this guy that Jesus is the true Sabbath!! Angie | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Brad, As Colleen said, we cannot dismiss something that is literal into only a spiritual fulfillment. You mention that you're giving Colleen a hard time (in jest;) Actually, the problem you mention with the scripture isn't really that hard of a problem. (Brad, I hope this isn't too long of a study. If it is, just print it and study at your leisure. I'm interested in what you might think about these things.) I've dealt with two specific groups that teach the same thing you're wondering about. I will mention some statements one group teaches, and why the idea of Jesus' coming cannot be taken only spiritually, as they suggest, but must be taken literally and physically. I am going to quote from the Dec. 1, 1981 edition of The Watchtower magazine: Page 5, "Could it be that millions are wrongly expecting Christ to arrive literally on the clouds?" Note 1: This is just a "set-up." Of course, one wouldn't want to be wrong. It is a subtle psychological technique. Just like you Brad, just because millions believe this way is not necessarily a good reason to believe anything. One must (should?) pray, then study, and pray again and hold fast to that which is good. Page 7, ". . . John 14:19, where Jesus said: 'A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, because I live and you will live.' Yes, his followers, but not the general public, beheld him on various occasions after his resurrection. It was not that he had taken up again his sacrificed body, but rather, that he had materialized fleshly bodies according to the needs of the occasion, as angels had done previously. In two instances, he appeared to his disciples when they wre together in a room 'although the doors were locked.' Certainly no normal flesh-and-blood creature could appear and disappear in such circumstances. Note 2: First, Jesus was speaking about His crucifixion and death. He was not speaking about His second coming. He was specifically speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit. John 14:16-20: 16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. A famous Christian said, "A text, taken out of context is a pretext for a proof text." Note 3: Secondly, they state "... his followers, but not the general public..." After Jesus resurrection we have accounts of Jesus appearing to believers in various places and situations. There is nothing in scripture that says He never appeared to unbelievers. I won't make a doctrine out of it, but I'm not going to put God in a box and say that He ONLY did something in a way that I understand, which would make God as small as I, perhaps one of the most common and deadly sins. Note 4: They say, "It was not that he had taken up again his sacrificed body...materialized fleshly bodies according to the needs...." Was the body that Jesus raised up in the same one that laid in the grave, and was it a physical body? Point 1: In the New Testament, whenever scripture tells of resurrection, it is speaking of the 'soma', which is the Greek for physical body. Today, we find that word used in medicine for "psychosomatic illness." This means that something which is initiated by the mind becomes manifested in the "soma." These are real illnesses that doctors can actually treat, not just imaginary illnesses, which is a different [psychiatric] condition. After Jesus' resurrection, everyone was looking for His "soma," but they couldn't find it! Point 2: John specifically said of Jesus in John 2:21, "But He was speaking of the temple of His body." Point 3: After His resurrection, what kind of body did Jesus have? He had a spiritual body. What does this mean? Jesus Himself explained it to His disciples as follows in Luke 24:36-43: 36 While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst. 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them. Jesus said, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." Then he ate broiled fish! MMMMMM! I can't wait. I bet that after our resurrection, the fish from the river of life will taste so good, and no one will be complaining about that "awful, fishy smell." I can't wait! (One of my vegetarian, FAF friends, may even have some fish then. (Hey Richard, how about planning a Bar-B-Q around one of the Trees of Life next to the river? I'll bring the BBQ sauce!) Note 5: They say, "Certainly no normal flesh-and-blood creature could appear and disappear in such circumstances." Who ever said that Jesus is a "normal" (read "human") flesh-and-blood creature? Scripture never states that He was "normal." Nor does it state that He was ABnormal. Jesus was SUPERnormal. If Jesus is truly God in the flesh (Isaiah, John, Hebrews, Colossians, Philippians, etc.) then we should NEVER attribute the human idea of "normal" to Him, lowering Him from His status of Lord down to a mere man. Watchtower, Page 7-8: "But how are we to understand Revelation 1:7, which indicates that even unbelievers would 'see him'? That scripture states: 'Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.' Is that to be taken literally? If Christ rides with the literal clouds, how can every eye see him? If he is visible in Australia, then he certainly will not be visible simultaneously in Europe and most other parts of the earth, regardless of his altitude. The fact that Christ's presence is associated with the figurative use of clouds in various texts helps us to understand that his presence has to be invisible, since clouds do not aid visibility, as any airplane pilot or air-traffic controller well knows." Note 6: The word "eye" found in Revelation 1:7 is the Greek word, "ophthalmos" which is translated in scripture as "eye" 101 times, and "sight" 1 time. (If your doctor writes a prescription for something to be put in the eye, it must be "ophthalmic" in quality, i.e., specifically for the eye.) Note 7: They ask "If Christ rides with the literal clouds, how can every eye see him?" SMOKESCREEN! Point 1: I've seen birds in the clouds, I've seen planes in the clouds, I've been in the clouds many times myself, though not as Christ will be. I needed a huge hunk of metal to lift me up! Just because clouds do obscure at times, we mustn't be distracted by that point, because . . . Point 2: When Jesus returns, time as we know it may not be the same as we've become accustomed to since Adam. Jesus' death on the cross was an eternal point in time, which may sound like an oxymoron, but is a simple paradox. He was crucified from the foundations of the earth. Hebrews 4:3 says, For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "As I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter my rest," although HIS WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Point 3: They use the word "simultaneously" in regards to Jesus' visible return (which they do not believe). Again, what does "simultaneous" mean from the word of God? First of all, it's not found in the text, it is ADDED to prepare the reader for an interpretation that sits well with a human mind. Secondly, Jesus' return will be a singularity. The entire focus of the universe will be on that one event. Time may not mean anything at that point in time (another paradox). Watchtower Page 7-8: "Yes, 'all the tribes of the earth' will 'see,' or mentally perceive, Christ's presence and revelation by reason of the sudden change of circumstances that will come upon them." Note 8: "mentally perceive" is ADDED. Again this addition is to help these folks sell their specific doctrinal agenda. And guess what? It works! It is sooooo logical (from human logic) to understand that we all can't see Him at the exact same time while we're spread around a 360 degree globe. It is soooo logical to think that to "mentally perceive" His return must be what is meant. Again, all of this is human reason. Point 1: Regarding "seeing" His return. Let's go on to the final quote, below, and I'll address the nature of the return of Christ and summarize there. Watchtower Page 8: "On the other hand, millions of persons around the world have come to recognize Christ's presence since the eventful year 1914." Note 9: The return of Christ will be 1) VISIBLE, 2) AUDIBLE, 3) PERSONAL, and 4) GLORIOUS. There are 3 Greek words in used in relation to the return of Jesus. 1. parousia This literally means presence or coming and must be interpreted on the context in which it is found. The word is found in Matt. 28:20 when Jesus said, "And surely I will be parousia' [with you] always, to the very end of the age." This is obviously to be understood as being through the Holy Spirit whom He sent to His believers on the day of Pentecost. This translation of the word parousia is the personal and subjective type of presence or coming of our Lord NASB Matthew 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the COMING of the Son of Man be. The word coming is parousia. Although this can be personal (I believe it will be personal for every human being, either as a joy or as dread) it is apparently VISIBLE and objective, not an invisible, subjective event. 2. erchomai {er'-khom-ahee) which means: come, go, to come from one place to another, and used of persons arriving, to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public. erchomai is used in Matt. 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to COME in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. This is a visible, objective, public appearing. 3. epiphaneia (from which we get the word epiphany) meaning, an appearing, brightness, an appearing, appearance. It is used in Titus 2:13 and I Timothy 6:14, I Timothy 6:14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. I'll list a few more scripture verses, look them up. Matt 16:27 With His angels. Matt 24:27 As the lightning. Matt 24:30 With power and great glory. I Thess 4:16 With a shout. II Thess 2:8 With the brightness of His coming. II Peter 3:10 With a great noise. Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him." SUMMARY Is the coming of Jesus in a literal body? YES. Will His second coming be seen by everyone, even those without eyes? YES. (He made the blind see when He was here, what's to stop Him from making sure everyone sees Him when He returns?) Is His second coming personal and spiritual or public and literal/physical? YES and YES. For believers it will be THE personal experience we have waited for. For the unbeliever, it will be the personal experience they never could have imagined in their worst nightmare. For the believer it will be spiritual, because when we see Him, "we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." For the unbeliever, it will be spiritual and literal, for they will be slain by the brightness of His coming. And it will be literal and physical for all for all the same reasons. When I left Adventism, some of the first things that I had to deal with were in relation to "time/eternity" and "physical/spiritual." For anyone dealing with the various problems in leaving the SDA church, I suggest that you learn of that paradoxical nature of some Biblical doctrines. Deal with the issue of time and eternity, both in their current state as we understand them, but also as scripture teaches (e.g., Christ having been crucified from the foundation of the world; we ARE seated with Him in heavenly places, Ephesians 2:4-6: 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, AND SEATED US WITH HIM IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS. Brad, I hope I haven't given you too much. If I have I apologize. Your questions do deserve thorough answers (I Peter 3:15). Forgive me for not addressing everything you write. I would never leave my computer (not that I mind, but I do need to take a shower this month! HA!) God bless you in your studies, and remember PRAY! Steve | ||
| Richardtinker (Richardtinker) |
Steve, I'll bring the fish--better yet--first lets go fishing together... Richard | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, I think I'll just pray and have some fish too. Fish and Lamb have been my favorite for a long time. | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Brad, Do you like Indian (East Indian) food? One of my all-time favorite meals is Lamb Vindaloo. It's an Indian way of preparing tender pieces of lamb in a spicy sauce with some veggies. It's excellent with steamed rice. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Angie there are many sites and alot of stuff to heklp with this study. If you e-mail me I can show you somethings that I have. One thing you could do to avoid any discomfort and feeling like they will jump you is have it written down ahead of time maybe just give it to them and pray and see what happens. It is so hard to reach them they are full and have need of nothing is that not a text in the Bible? It sure gets frustrating but you can only do so much and then its up to them and the Holy Spirit right? I studied and found that what I had been taught was a bunch of myths I am not sure why all of a sudden those of us who really believed it and lived it see the light it was quick and fast for me after 27 years. Well I just thank God Terry tbawgus@hotmail.com | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, I've had it before but prefer backyard barbaque. Buy the way I believe what you had to say about Rev.1:7 and see it fulfilled at the end after the 1000 years when every eye shall see Him. But I'm still set on believing that our being caught up into the clouds and living with Him for 1000 years happens in a spiritual way while our physical body is still on the earth. After the 1000 years the earth is destroyed by fire and we will in no doult in my mind recieve a Glorified body that is both Physical and Spiritual. But for the 1000 years before that I see life going on a usual except that we "as in the overcomers" rule over the nations with an iron rod with Christ indwelling and manifesting Himself through us. We would see Him but the world will not see Him in us because of their unbelief. The non believers live spiritually in the winepress and those that are religous but really do not know Christ because of 1. lack of faith 2. no white garments or righteous acts of the saints 3. not being faithful to use their talents are spiritually cast into outer darkness. But enough of that lets go fishing theres some good spots up here in the Bow river by Banff. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Terry,did you get my e-mail?Sometimes I think it is sent when it hasn't. Angie | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Brad, I went to Banff around 1981 or 1982. It was spectacular. I went running every day (I was there for 10 days to two weeks), cooked over a campfire, met some crazy French Canadians (they were drinking by 8 o'clock in the morning in a camp site near me) and saw some of the most beautiful country I've ever seen. I flew from San Francisco to Calgary, took a train up to Banff, and toured around and hiked through the mountains. It was a very memorable time. It must be great living there. Steve | ||
| Brad_2 (Brad_2) |
Steve, If you ever get a chance to come back up look me up. On sunny days in the summer I go to some of the best place in the Rockies. The best is at the back of Lake Louise and at Morraine Lake hiking to sentinal pass through larch valley where you are surrounded by mountains with the valley of ten peaks right in front of you. I'm going to lake o hara this summer. We go in by bus only. But I hear it is the three month wait to get in "reservations only" unless you hike in which would take all day and just see trees close to you. I would rather save my time and energe for the best. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Angie no I did not get and e-mail from you. I am waiting to hear from you. Godd luck in sending it. Terry | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Brad, Sounds great. However I may not get up to Banff for years at this point. I've restarted myself in a new career, little vacation time right now. After a skiing accident in '95 I haven't been the same physically. I had major knee surgery, still have a metal plate in my leg and just don't run/hike like I used to. The surgeon did an excellent job, but I don't have any spring in my left leg. So even if I did get up there, I wouldn't be any good for a serious hike. Thanks for the invitation. Maybe in a couple to few years, if I have a chance to get up that way I'll look you up. Steve | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 78 Registered: 8-2000 |
This isn't quite another Waco, but here's another grisly tragedy with cultic undertones being laid at the SDA church's doorstep by the media. The following four paragraphs are excerpted from a current FoxNews.com article: "FRESNO, Calif. ó A man suspected of killing nine of his family members lived a bizarre life of polygamy and incest, even fathering two of his victims with his own daughters, police said.... "The grisly tale of polygamy, incest and murder stunned not only police but also Wesson's 29-year-old son, Dorian. "'He was a good father. He wasn't abusive at all," Dorian Wesson told the Los Angeles Times in Sunday's editions. "He belongs to the Seventh-day Adventist (Church) and writes books too.'... "The department's cult expert is helping with the investigation. Dyer said no motive had been determined...." I'm sure there are other examples of bizarre and extreme behavior by members of virtually every other denomination, but do you think that some of the warped and controlling aspects of Adventist thought and methodology are a contributing factor to such events as these? It seems to me that there are a growing collection of horrendous crimes being perpetrated by people who are SDAs, or have their roots in Adventism. First Waco, then Rwanda, next Malvo, and now this new villain. Are there any members here with psych backgrounds who could shed a little insight into these tragic events, and any possible connection to the less blatant forms of Adventism's cultic tendencies? Saddened, and longing for the Kingdom, Den <>< | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 233 Registered: 7-2003 |
About 2 years ago, 20/20 did a profile of a serial killer who was killing prostitutes (I think) ... I can't remember many details except that he was also SDA. It seems he killed 20 (+/-) before being caught...but again, it's fuzzy in my memory. I was just struck by the mention of him being SDA on national tv. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2003 |
The other Dennis (from Lincoln) on this forum will probably remember Roger Borkland well. I went to college with Borkland at Union College. He was older than me and I didn't know him personally, but I passed him on the sidewalk and said "hi" many times. When he graduated with a theology degree he worked as a SDA youth pastor for sometime in Lincoln. That is until he and a accomplice pre-meditatedly kidnapped a young woman for the purpose of torturing, raping, and killing her. Apparently it was something he and his friend had fantacised about and planned out. He recently died of a heart attack on death row at the prison down the street from my house. It's hard to understand how someone could go into the minstry at the same time harboring such horrendous evil within them. We're all evil at our core I suppose and even true Christians are capable of terrible sins, but somehow I just don't believe that a truly regenerate person could ever do what was done to that girl. Why is it I don't hear about Southern Baptist Ministers planning rape torture and murder or being involved in genocide (Rwanda)? I supose that's a completely unfair question, but it is one I've found myself asking when these things come up..... | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2003 |
The official SDA position on what happened! If the son says he was SDA...who do we believe? Dear Local and Union Conf. Communication Directors: Many of you are probably aware of the reports from Fresno California about arrest of Marcus Wesson and the 9 bodies that were found in his home over the weekend. Many of the news reports have said that Wesson is a Seventh-day Adventist. The Central California Conference has confirmed that he is not. Listed below is the statement that was released from the Central California Conference to various news entities across North America. STATEMENT FROM THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH We grieve with all of Fresno -- and all of the United States. At these times of tragedy we pray that God will comfort those who have been hurt deeply by these senseless events. This world is filled too often with sorrow and pain. As a Christian church, we want to help people through tragic times. News reports have indicated that Marcus Wesson is a Seventh-day Adventist. That is incorrect. We cannot find any record of Marcus Wesson being a member of any Seventh-day Adventist Church. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a mainstream Protestant Church with more than 13 million members worldwide. We operate schools, clinincs, and churches in more than 200 countries worldwide. Adventists believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. We worship Him each Saturday and look forward to His soon return to usher in an era of peace when tragedies like this one will never again occur. Adventists have never believed in polygamy nor condoned its practice. |
