| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2003 |
Doug, you make excellent points. I've discovered that I knew absolutely nothing about proper hermeneutics as an Adventist. Learning the basic hermeneutical rules have been so helpful to me. Among the rules I wish I had known as as SDA: 1) Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God, therefore the NT always interprets the OT and not the other way around. 2) The Bible contains different types of literature for different purposes. Didactic teaching literature carries more doctrinal wieght then poetic wisdom literature. Given these rules, doctrines that are based entirely or mostly on the OT "proof texts" with little or no NT support (think food laws and Sabbath keeping) should be viewed tenatively at best and should carry less weight then doctrines that are based primarily on the NT. Doctrines that are based primarily on OT wisdom literature "proof texts" (soul sleep) should be viewed even more tenatively and should not be misused to contradict what is taught in the NT. I am not suggesting that Bible contradicts itself, it does not. But God most assuredly revealed more and more of Himself overtime, with the ultimate revelation being His Son Jesus Christ. It just doesn't make sense to try to interpret and redefine the teachings of Jesus and His apostles through OT lenses. Rather we need to look through Christ centered lenses in our interpretation of the incomplete revelation given to OT saints. Chris | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2004 |
It has taken me a few days to read your responses...thanx to you who did. I was somewhat surprised to see the overwhelming "vote" for "get out soon." I may have to re-address "the situation." The church family here is somewhat small (I beleive 50 or so.) We "share" a pastor from Wyoming who actually travels to three churches in WYO and COLO. This has caused a "ripple" in and of itself...obviously...there has been little "consistency" here ever since we arrived in town (July.) There has also been a "tearing apart" of sorts due to some "he-said-she-said" type of stuff. This, as we all more or less beleive, is Satan working his magic...he loves this stuff while Christ (who should ALWAYS be the focus of our fellowship) sits back and weeps...right along with the "members' who get discouraged. I suppose part of my staying truly is to be a "rock" and possibly witness in my own little way. (A key manner for me is always bringing up my job - teaching High School business, heaven forbid, at the local non-private secondary school!!! ) These folks genuinely find my work credible, but I would gather that a large percentage of Adventists would find my job appalling or even worthless. This BOTHERS ME TO KNOW END!!!) I consider myself working for The Lord, first, and a Marketing/Accounting/Econ teacher second...I am not a teacher, it is just what I do...my job is to stand for Christ in the workplace - and I try to do this every week  But back to the present day. While my wife went through a "study" of sorts ten years ago, the "25 principles," so to speak, she, along with me, NEVER jumped on the EGW bandwagon. In fact, I can't remember if I told you this, but when I was baptized "into" the church (my 3rd offcial Christian christening!?!) I specifically told the pastor that I DID NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE with EGW and can't buy into that. He said, that's okay for now, 24/27 is a good portion of it. hmmm. Still, when you get the "Mark of the Beast", the don't eat pork, the KNOW work (fun  ) on Saturday's, the watch what and where you go syndrome, et al., when you get that at a young age (15) and being raised a Catholic - you can get a bit overwhelmed...my Mom used to always tell me don't spend so much time on "religion" as you can drive yourself batty - she be right!?! So, I have that aura of "is the Ho;ly Spirit driving me to challenge my faith" or is it from below? My brother (the pastor) obviously says 100% Satan - be careful.. And yet, I still am "mature" enough to know that Satan works in mysterious ways to a degree as well. While I beleive that God's flock can belong to many of his "worldy organizations", finding the one for me and my family has always been the challenge...I have just felt drawn to the SDA church because it has pretty much been my focus since the late 70s. And now, with a 5 and 2 year-old, while they don't get hardly any of the legal issues that seem to drive the SDA bandwagon (working on Sabbath, cartoon viewing, not associating with non-SDA kids, et al.) I feel safe at this moment...but the questions will be coming. My wife and I do wholeheartedly teach the saved by grace NT "angle." So, we stand firm in some respects, but it is just a stop-gap measure I suppose...holding off the inevitable. Finally, I find myself intrigued by the "point-couterpoint" discussions that can go on with various Christian followers...in fact, my brother has spent pages of e-mail picking apart Ratzlaff, Taylor, and countless other "former" members and leaders of the SDA church - calling them all "dangerous" to a certain degree. Wow, we can sure ramble on this stuff can't we?? Looking forward to your replies! Eric, God's answer to the ultimate Packer Fanatic!! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, Those basic hermeneutical principles were very well stated. I wholeheartedly agree with your observation and experience with SDA biblical interpretation. In his classic book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, Dr. Robert Morey initially devotes many pages to the hermeneutics of death. After meticulously outlining these principles of biblical interpretation, he begins the topic of his book. Of course, Seventh-day Adventist apologists create their own hermeneutics--outside the boundaries of generally-accepted criteria. As we know too well, they don't even follow their own hermeneutics (i.e., accepting a complicated mixture of moral and ceremonial dictates whenever convenient). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2003 |
Eric, have you read Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventist by Ratzlaff? If not, you really should. Ultimately, the only way you'll know what's really true or not true is by committing to ask God to show you the truth, by immersing yourself in consistent, inductive Bible study, and by being willing to accept whatever the Holy Spirit shows you in His word. Once you know what the truth is (both theologically and historically regarding the church), your willingness to go where Jesus leads will determine your level of confidence versus confusion. As Oswald Chambers says, you learn more from five minutes of obedience than from five months of studying an issue! Only God knows what you should do and when it should happen; he will show you, however, and he will also provide the courage and the hope you need to do whatever it is He calls you to do. Jesus will not leave you in confusion! Colleen | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2002 |
Its funny to me about not accepting the Ellen White part of the church. Well through my study of the church she is one of the founders and everything they do is based on her. So it makes me sad to know that most members say they do not follow her but if you are in SDA church you are following ellen. I am correct in this right? Well praise God for his love for us all. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 149 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi guys! I'm curious about something and wanted to know your opinions.....My mom (SDA) is getting a new pastor. She excitedly told me about him, some guy from 3ABN who used to be a preacher (Pentecostal I think.) She naturally shared with me how he studied himself into the SDA church. You hear stories like that from time to time. When it does happen SDAs are so proud and eager to spread the news. How does this happen do you think? Do these pastors not have a knowledgeable understanding of the New Covenant to begin with? From what I've seen in the SDA church, most who are brought over from other denominations are grasping for the legalism, wanting to find something they can do, but these seemingly studied and sincere pastors??? It just surprises me. I thought some of you might know of specific instances and why/how it happened, or maybe even know of whom I'm talking about??? Love you all, Prayers, Carol | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 492 Registered: 3-2001 |
Carol, I will just make one observation about the situation you described. You asked if these Pastors have a knowledgeable understanding of the New Covenant. I think the answer is an emphatic "no!" In my search for a new church home, I have discovered that there is no shortage of unhealthy churches out there. The Adventists certainly do not have a corner on the market. Those churches are being led by someone, and guess who they are? Pastors. So Pastors are not exempt from misunderstanding and deception either. The church that my ex-wife grew up in was a Pentecostal church, and I can tell you that they were every bit as legalistic as the SDA churches that I had been raised in. I think it is people who have been exposed to environments like this that are most susceptible to Adventism and the likes. They are looking for structure and security, and the church is more than willing to provide it. Just my opinon. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 246 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think those raised in Sunday Sabbatarian churches are the most suceptible to Adventism. If you've grown up your whole life believing that the 4th commandment of the Mosaic covenant is binding on Christians and you believed that Sunday was the Sabbath, then I can see how disconcerting it would be to suddenly discover that Sunday is not the same as the Sabbath, never was, and never was commanded to be. I can see how you might think that you need to start observing Saturday Sabbath to be consistent. I remember attending a AOG church when I was transitioning. One of the associate pastors was preaching on "The Sabbath". I remember him saying, "Don't kid yourselves, the command to remember the Sabbath Day is still in place". He then went on to preach a whole sermon on what you should and shouldn't be doing on "The Sabbath" (Sunday in this case). Believe me, this particular sermon was every bit as legalistic as any "Sabbath" sermon I've ever heard in an SDA church. It made me a bit ill. If you deny that the Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, if you deny that the yearly, monthly and weekly Sabbaths were only shadows pointing to the reality of the rest we find in Him, then truly I can't understand why one wouldn't observe Saturday Sabbath just to be consistent. This is how I think people from other denominations get sucked in. Chris | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 290 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hi, my replies to you are in red. It has taken me a few days to read your responses...thanx to you who did. I was somewhat surprised to see the overwhelming "vote" for "get out soon." I may have to re-address "the situation." The church family here is somewhat small (I beleive 50 or so.) We "share" a pastor from Wyoming who actually travels to three churches in WYO and COLO. This has caused a "ripple" in and of itself...obviously...there has been little "consistency" here ever since we arrived in town (July.) There has also been a "tearing apart" of sorts due to some "he-said-she-said" type of stuff. I think you will find this is a common thing in churches where the Gospel is not being preached. The church I just exited from totally split and it seems to be one or two vipers that cause the trouble...and even when the vipers split off they still come back and cause trouble with the church school that is affiliated with the old church and the now newly formed church two miles down the road! Basically it was over the music...too progressive, and jewelry wearing. When they left they siad they were getting back to "basics" code speak for Ellen and maybe we could worship togeather in heaven someday. Totally condescending. But in my experience there are a few in every congregation. This, as we all more or less beleive, is Satan working his magic...he loves this stuff while Christ (who should ALWAYS be the focus of our fellowship) sits back and weeps...right along with the "members' who get discouraged. Discouraged. That is the term SDA's use for people who have had the veil from their hearts removed. Eric, I cannot tell you how unhappy I was as an SDA...I had never heard the Gospel...in 37-years of attending. I lived a double life because SDA judge the outside of people and I would take my earrings off, etc. because like Peter I feared those of the circumcision! I finally told God that if this was "His way"...I wanted no part of it. I was desperately seeking Him and that is when I found Him. He removed the veil that is only removed when you turn to Him! He opened the Bible to me...as I look back, I would try to make the bible fit into SDA theology...I would underline only parts of texts, etc. Sad. Now I could take the Bible as it reads...Colossians 2...as it reads...Galatians...as it reads so on and so forth! I too felt I should stay and try to liberate as many SDA as I possibly could...but guess what I found...closed hearts and minds. Adventism is much more than a religion...it is a culture. For some to give it up means giving up their lives and livlihoods...all their friends (everyone knows everyone ya know) etc. I admit I too faced this...but knowing Jesus Christ and being set free is a pearl of great price and worth it all! I was told I would lose my salvation if I left the SDA fold...prayer chains were formed for me...my husband was furious...I suffered...but it was nothing compared to what Jesus suffered. At one point, they had me so afraid I almost turned back...I asked the Lord to just kill me if I was being led astray by the devil. He didn't kill me and he blessed me beyond measure...I could write a book Eric! A denomination does not save you...JESUS SAVES! I am now in the Body of Christ...something I used to be afraid of and feel sorry for because they didn't have the "light" or a "prophet" and an answer for everything...but ya know what...I am perfectly happy to not know every thing now...I trust Jesus. I suppose part of my staying truly is to be a "rock" and possibly witness in my own little way. (A key manner for me is always bringing up my job - teaching High School business, heaven forbid, at the local non-private secondary school!!! ) These folks genuinely find my work credible, but I would gather that a large percentage of Adventists would find my job appalling or even worthless. This BOTHERS ME TO KNOW END!!!) Yes, I believe you are right. First strike against you is you are not teaching SDA's...second is you are not a big money making machine...and I have found that in the SDA system, those with the money call the shots. Sad isn't it. Plus, if you notice the physicians and nurses, etc. (of which there are many) also don't have to worry about working on the Sabbath because that is acceptible...do any of them get paid that day for doing good? See the hypocrisy there, Eric? Yet I know people who were told by the church family to quit their postal jobs, etc. for the Sabbath. I consider myself working for The Lord, first, and a Marketing/Accounting/Econ teacher second...I am not a teacher, it is just what I do...my job is to stand for Christ in the workplace - and I try to do this every week and that is exactly right...you are working for the Lord, let your light shine brother...you are working for the Lord the same as the nurse punching that time clock on the Sabbath would be...all the while justifying it with "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." But back to the present day. While my wife went through a "study" of sorts ten years ago, the "25 principles," so to speak, she, along with me, NEVER jumped on the EGW bandwagon. In fact, I can't remember if I told you this, but when I was baptized "into" the church (my 3rd offcial Christian christening!?!) That would be two for me, the first time I was 10 and did it because it was expected of me, the second time I was a backslider and wanted to repent...I did lie about not ever drinking alcohol again and the belief that EGW is the Spirit of Prophesy...I did this because I believed salvation was through the SDA church...so I badly wanted to belong. I specifically told the pastor that I DID NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE with EGW and can't buy into that. He said, that's okay for now, 24/27 is a good portion of it. hmmm. My brother got rebaptized too and he also told the pastor he didn't believe in EGW...the pastor had no problem with that...had to get those #'s up, ya know! But since then, I have discussed with him that this is a weird situation because Ellen is so engrained into the theology of SDAism that you cannot separate the two. Did you know most SDA I have talked to don't even know what the IJ (Investigative Judgment) is?! I think Ellen said it best when she said "Sleeping pastor's preaching to sleeping congregations!" Still, when you get the "Mark of the Beast", the don't eat pork, the KNOW work (fun) on Saturday's, the watch what and where you go syndrome, et al., when you get that at a young age (15) and being raised a Catholic - you can get a bit overwhelmed...my Mom used to always tell me don't spend so much time on "religion" as you can drive yourself batty - she be right!?! I think a friend put it best when he said, "Sda standards are higher than Christ's! So, I have that aura of "is the Ho;ly Spirit driving me to challenge my faith" or is it from below? I know, I felt the same way, as an SDA we were taught that "one church" was a bad thing...but if you read in the bible, divisions in the Body of Christ was never what was intended...remember Paul hears about church members saying, "I follow Paul" "I follow Appollos" and "I follow Chirst" and Paul says stop it!!!!! Also we are conditioned to believe we need humans to teach us of God...but the Bible says we are all competant ministers of the New Covenant and all have the Holy Spirit. You don't need any thing else...just let God speak to you through the Holy Spirit and don't be afraid...fear is not of God...and the SDA church instills lots of fear...fear of the IJ, fear of the Time of Trouble, fear of other churches, fear of being led astray...but what does Jesus say... "Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." "My peace I give to you, not as the world gives!!!" John 10 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. Did you hear that Eric, if you are in Christ, you cannot be snatched!!!! Remember that and don't be afraid...the work He started in you He will finish...he promised. The SDA have no assurance of salvation and it makes them furious when someone expresses simple faith in the promises of God. They believe it is like picking petals from a flower..."saved, not saved, saved, not saved..." they can only hope the last petal is saved! Their prophet said never to say you are saved! And the IJ takes all assurance out of it because one can only hope they don't die with unconfessed sins! They don't believe Jesus when He said "It is finished!" They are still (like the Jews) looking for salvation...sorry it is a done deal...we are sealed with the Holy Spirit for redemption. (By the way, I was led to believe the Sabbath was the seal by the SDA...this is not biblical.) My brother (the pastor) obviously says 100% Satan - be careful.. And yet, I still am "mature" enough to know that Satan works in mysterious ways to a degree as well. Satan is a defeated foe. Ellen and SDA give him too much credit...I am sure he is happy to read he is still in the game!!!! If you are in Christ, Satan cannot touch you! Beleive it...you cannot be snatched. You are a sheep and you hear the Shepherds voice...you will not follow a strange voice. While I beleive that God's flock can belong to many of his "worldy organizations", Please clarify...you mean "other denominations"? This is true but there is only one Body of Christ and we are all members. Denominations are a trap and a snare. finding the one for me and my family has always been the challenge...I have just felt drawn to the SDA church because it has pretty much been my focus since the late 70s. And now, with a 5 and 2 year-old, while they don't get hardly any of the legal issues that seem to drive the SDA bandwagon (working on Sabbath, cartoon viewing, not associating with non-SDA kids, et al.) I feel safe at this moment...but the questions will be coming. My wife and I do wholeheartedly teach the saved by grace NT "angle." So, we stand firm in some respects, but it is just a stop-gap measure I suppose...holding off the inevitable. Finally, I find myself intrigued by the "point-couterpoint" discussions that can go on with various Christian followers...in fact, my brother has spent pages of e-mail picking apart Ratzlaff, Taylor, and countless other "former" members and leaders of the SDA church - calling them all "dangerous" to a certain degree. Dangerous, yes...because SDAism is so ingrained into people's psyche it often rocks peoples worlds to see they might not have all the right answers. But, if you are in Christ, and beleive what He said...you should not be afraid...JESUS SAVES...not a denomination. Wow, we can sure ramble on this stuff can't we?? Looking forward to your replies! Eric, God's answer to the ultimate Packer Fanatic!! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2003 |
Eric, like Pheeki said, "let God speak to you through the Holy Spirit." But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27 When I was going through my "theological crisis" as I called it, I was afraid of being deceived. Each time before I studied my Bible, I would claim the promise of James 1:5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5 When I started doing this, It was like reading the Bible for the first time. It took me about 2 years after I started questioning sda doctrine to finally leave. It was scary. The first time I posted on this forum, I was shaking. As for the kids, mine are 8 and almost 11.... Yesterday we were talking about the passover and how it pointed to the deliverer and how we are saved by the blood of the Lamb. Out of the blue,my older child asked, "why don't the SDA's teach grace?" We have not attended an sda church since november and have been attending a grace filled non demoninational church. She went on to tell me that in sabbath school it just seemed like entertainment. She said that in her Sunday school now, they study the Bible and talk about saving grace every sunday. It's amazing how much kids pick up on. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 God bless you as you search for the TRUTH. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 579 Registered: 7-2000 |
Carol, we were Christians before we became SDA. We had a full grasp of the New Covenant before we went into the SDA's. What we think happened with us is that the Lord laid a conviction on us to keep the 7th day sabbath. While going to the church, we did have opportunity to share, in the first year, with certain folks we would not have met otherwise (I can't think of anyone we met after that time that seemed open...and that's a sad thing, isn't it?! During that time we also became acquainted with a member who was in an abusive marriage. She left the church with us, and we were able to minister to her through her time of leaving her abuser and beginning a new life.) Our problem was that we stopped listening after He directed us to keep sabbath. If we HAD continued listening, we would have heard when He let us know that the time for doing that was up, we were wasting time, and needed to get out. However, once there, we let ourselves be distracted by the endtime prophecy stuff. We stepped into the huge mistake of assuming that since it sounded like these people had an understanding of the endtime stuff we should just listen to them. We stuffed the warning voices in our spirits.....and oh yes indeed the warning voice was very much there!....and didn't focus on questioning the stuff that didn't add up in what we were being taught. We assumed that the problem was with the local congregation (we read very little of EGW while in the denomination....I think had we done so, we would have recognized that source of the mess much sooner) it took a long time to realize that the problem was denomination wide....there was no understanding of the gospel. I have to wonder if the same sort of thing might not happen to at east some of these pastors who go into the SDA. The Lord gets them in contact with SDA so they can smell the stench of perverted doctrine and take the opportunity to witness. This is why I so often say on here, not just "ask the Lord what He wants us to do", but then, "shut up and listen....and keep listening"! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 247 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lydell, I'm curious if you still observe Saturday Sabbath after leaving Adventism. If not, what would you say has now changed and in retorspect, what do you believe to be God's purposes in having you keep Saturday Sabbath for a time. Just curious. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2003 |
I believe God leads people in all kinds of different ways for reasons we may or may not ever know, but in general I also believe that most of the Christians who convert to Adventism do so because they don't understand the true role of the law and Jesus' total fulfillment of it. I know how you felt, Chris, as you listened to that AOG pastor preach about Sabbath keeping. That's what we heard last summer when we stumbled onto a pastor at Hume Lake Family Camp advising people to observe Sabbath (read that Sunday). We made an appointment to talk to him and later mailed him both Ratzlaff books; I'd love to know someday what his reaction was to reading them (if he did--although I think he probably did!) It's amazing to me how pervasive are the creeping effects of legalism. It has sneaked into Christianity, and most people do not recognize it. I can see why Paul was so forceful when he wrote Galatians! Praise Jesus for freedom in him! Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I met with my ex-pastor yesterday, he tried to insist that the SDA Church is changing. He said there is a ìlot of talk about the New Covenant among pastors.î Now I questioned how you can ever truly preach the New Covenant in Adventism since the beliefs are grace + Sabbath or grace + mark of the beast or grace plus something. He disagreed with me but didnít elaborate on what all he knows (which I strongly suspect is more than he told me). If so many pastors are actually talking about the New Covenant, Iím thinking there may be hope that they will be waking up pretty soon, although Iím thinking one-by-one, not corporately. Colleen or anyoneÖ.do you know if more and more pastors are starting to study out what theyíve been preaching? Praise GodÖ | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 493 Registered: 3-2001 |
I think it is a little scary that there is talk "among the Pastors," but that it is not filtering to the congregations. Are they waiting for an edict from the Vatican (I mean the General Conference)? I cannot see how anyone can understand the New Covenant, but then not shout about it from the rooftops. Sounds like a smoke screen to me. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 414 Registered: 6-2002 |
Oh, I don't know . . . I think this "talk about the New Covenant" will end up being this: "OH, SURE!! We DEFINITELY believe in the New Covenant. Now, of course, this means that the Ten Commandments were written on our hearts, right? So, any way, it is the Old Covenant, but stronger, with the Ten intact. . . " Do some really understand how different the Covenants are? Sure, but only a few will stand up for it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2003 |
Praisegod, I heard A LOT of that when I was leaving. "Oh yeah, Adventism is much different today. You can really believe what you want. You don't have to agree with all of the 27 fundamentals. You can't help change things if you leave. etc. etc. etc." Basically they'll say ANYTHING to keep you from leaving. The local church gets money from the conference based on how many members they have so there are a lot of factors at work, some of them are definately financial. Here's my take on it: Trying to take the legalism out of the SDA is like trying to take the racism out of the KKK. Without it there's no reason to exist as an organization. Chris | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, Doug, Jerry and Chris, I understand where you are coming from and you could be right. In my case, Iím already an ìexî so it wasnít a situation of trying to get me to stay Adventist or even to return. It was just a conversation with a friend who happens to be my ex-pastor. However, I do believe that heís probably fooling himself on a lot of this. But, being the eternal optimist that I am that the Holy Spirit is moving in a mighty way, I do feel there could be another explanation. Looking back, I recognize what a grip the SDA church had on me while attempting to get out. I had to recognize that my mother was wrong, my grandmother was wrong, the SS and Pathfinder leaders were wrong, my teachers were wrong, my pastors were wrong. Growing up all of these people who were caring and loving authority figures in my life had given me wrong information. On top of that, I went through a period where Iím thinking, ìHow could I have been so blind, so deluded?î While Iím no theologian, Iím certainly not a dumb person. If it was that hard for me, I can only imagine how hard it is for pastors to try to back out of the system as theyíd have a whole additional layer of thoughts. Iím hoping that some of the scenario might be that pastors are getting hit by parishioners who, like us, are leaving (or at least questioning) for doctrinal reasons. The church loves to promote that no one leaves because of doctrines, but only because of hurt feelings. That was the entire focus of that special Review a few months ago that Iím sure many of us got or had friends and relatives share with us. Depending on how much of our doctrinal concern was explained to the pastor, it mayójust MAYóbe planting some seeds of doubt. They just MAY have done some personal study, checked out a few web sites or even come to this one. I would certainly hope that all of us who have studied ourselves out of Adventism donít leave without planting a few seeds on our way out the door. (Kindly, of course.) The particular situation my ex-pastor was referring to hearing the talk was a cross conference line meeting. I donít believe pastors can trust each other. Letís hope they are fishing to see how big of a problem others are dealing with. And letís pray that some of them wake up and the Holy Spirit doesnít give them rest until they go public with it. Look at the power through a pastor leaving a congregationósuch as Greg Taylor and others like him have had when they speak out boldly. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 227 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, it would be nice if some of them woke up to what the new covenant was about---but I'm not holding my breath. It's far more likely to be damage control, much as they've done to blunt the questions about the rapture and 'Left Behind' series. Booklets such as 'What Left Behind Left Out', 'What's wrong with the Rapture'--along with seminars and in church classes defending SDA eschatology. I'd bet that the 'new covenant' is going to get the same treatment. They'll show how orthodox Christianity has misunderstood the covenants and how SDA's have the true understanding. Don't forget, Adventism is tremendously deceitful and they will spin the 'truth' any way they can to show that they have always been right. To understand Adventism, you have to understand that all of the 'pillars' were formed in direct opposition to orthodox Christian teaching. It's an 'us vs. them' mentality and it's not going to disappear............. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 251 Registered: 7-2003 |
B spent some time a year + ago trying to explain how the SDA church was changing, but what is not on the table at all is the 27 fundamentals. They are becoming "less legalistic" in his words, and more "loving" in his words, but it really sounded as though they were merely trying to repackage the old message. (they still have the whole truth, afterall) None of the teachings were changing in general, just a little more "love" and "tolerance" wrapped around each of them. They are still the remnant church, still God's chosen people and still need to convert people to the Sabbath. He says God works and moves in the lives of Adventists and they receive those blessings for following the commandments. The pastors in his family seem to be firmly rooted and convinced of the historic adventist position. I can't imagine the conflict to swallow that everything you have grown up believing is wrong or mis-guided. I remember when I read Ron Numbers book "Prophetess of Health", the foreword talks about the conflict it created between him and his father. I think it was years later that his father told him that he thought he had been teaching his son the truth. That particular comment touched me because so many years were lost over that cause. And I keep wondering if some day B isn't going to wake up and realize he gave up years with his son (and the rest of us, if that mattered) for false teachings. I don't know if B and his family are "typical" SDAs or how they rank under the bell-curve of normality for that culture, but it appears they take every thing the religion says hand to mouth and question nothing, though B would and has adamantly denied that. He has used so many of the platitudes I've read to defend EGW or Wm Miller or the 27 or the path the religion has taken ... I wonder if he can even think for himself at all. On one hand, I know God can do anything, but I also know he allows our free will. He won't make SDAs change ... Adventism really started because of ego, in my opinion. Surely, that ego was fueled by the "spirit of deception", but it was the arrogance that they could figure out the coming of Christ that made them suceptible to that deception. Afterall, James says we are tempted by our own lusts...something that we do not want really can't tempt us. (and maybe it's all part and parcel of the same thing.) in the beginning, it was the ego of those from the millerite movement who were too proud to accept they had assuredly been proven wrong. But 150+ years later that pride hasn't subsided. I still hope and pray for the changes in the SDAs I know. But I'm realistic about it at the same time. The answer for them is that they have to deny husband, wife, SON or daughter to "follow Christ" and that means adventism to those I know. It just seems such a waste to me... But I am convinced he is sure he is "right" and I am never going to influence him differently unless and until he "wants" to see the truth even if it contradicts adventism. I'm sure he prays just as hard for me to see the "truth" as well. Kindof ironic, when I think about it. God must just shake his head. Just my observations as an outsider. |
