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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 165
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:45 am: |     |
Satan, yes, but also just the natural result of being born spiritually dead. Romans 1and 2 really are clear that ALL of us are hoipelessly sinful and without the ability to make moral choices because of our inherent wickedness. Romans 5 even points out that humanity was guilty of sin even before the law came and defined sin. Just being born as Adam's offspring makes us guilty. Without divine intervention, we would all be heinous.
The Old Testament's odd commands, such as the ones you mentioned above, Mary Jane, really puzzled me for a very long time. They have begun to make sense, though, as I've begun to see God as truly sovereign and thoroughly good and completely powerful over all things. One of Adventism's teachings which messed with my head in an underlying way more than any other was the assertion that God is loving and good and "would never" do things we mortals consider extreme: ie, hell, suffering, allowing infanticide, genocide, eugeneics, etc.
Somehow by seeing God as merciful, gracious, and loving from my human frame of reference, I had to delete from God's sovereignty his terrifying power, his wrath against sin, his justice, and his sovereign reign over ALL creation. And that left me with a weak God, although I didn't recognize him as weak, who had to "let" Satan have his way in order to vindicate God's own "fairness". That belief left me at the mercy of Satan who might at any mometn kill me or my loved ones, make me ill, harass me, and all with God standing benignly aside, watching to see what I would do in the face of this demonic attack. God, of course, could not intervene because if he did, he wouldn't be "fair".
Life has begun to make so much more sense since I've begun taking quite literally even the seemingly-conlficting Biblical passages that speack of God's sovereignty over evil, his sovereignty over the mass deaths of the Canaanites when God fought the Israelites' battles, the statements of his wrath and justice, as well as the Bible's insistence that our choices are real, significant, and have eternal consequences. We can't, from our three-dimensional perspective, explain how both of these positions can be true, but to choose one without the other would be to both deny the truth of scripture and also deny God his absolute sovereignty over all.
When I can accept God's sovereignty over everything, my life has much more meaning. I'm not Satan's unlucky pawn or God's test case who will, by my choices, vindicate Him or not.
Evil is in the world because Adam sinned. It's that simple. And until the time only the Father knows when he will return and create a new heaven and a new earth, evil will have its effect in the world. It's the NATURAL result of all humanity being born broken. God will not prevent the natural order of things, but he will intervene and redeem all that happens to us when we ask him to intervene. He can change our brokenness and create new creatures out of us.
The really astonishing reality that is invisible to our eyes but is quite visible to those who live outside our three dimensions is that now, post-cross, there is a new "race" of people on the earth, the born again. They are, the Bible says, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that seal is visible to all in the spiritual realm. The earth is full of both dead and living people walking and eating and interacting. We can't always tell who's who by looking at each other, but Satan, his minions, and the angels can certainly tell.
As long as I tried to figure out how evil and God could coexist in the same universe without understanding God's true sovereignty and my true, intrinsic evil, I was left with an intellectual puzzle. But as Sabra said above, God will reveal truth if one is really wanting to know it. One only needs to ask Him!
Colleen |
Mary_jane
Registered user
Username: Mary_jane
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Colleen,
I guess I just look at some things differently. Maybe it's my rebellios spirit, but, you know, it all rankles a bit, because we all are born doomed. We didn't make that choice. Not conciously. Adam and Eve did. But the rest of us are born doomed. Now, I guess God could have just obliterated them and "started over" or whatever, but that would have probably vindicated Satan in saying that God was unfair. So God HAD to send Jesus. He didn't have much of a choice. He had to send part of himself to make a sacrifice, because He knows, nothing we can do would make any difference. He made rules. We can't, or won't keep them. Even He has obviously wanted to wipe us all out at times...the flood, the Israelites in the dessert...etc. Obviously things that seem monumental and tragic to us...death of thousands or millions...are apparently insignificant to Him. I guess if we were looking at it from His standpoint it would be different. I guess to Him, when we die, we're just going to a much better place. If we only knew... Anyway, it certainly does matter to the ones left behind. Oh, well, it's all vanity, vanity
MJ |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 2:50 pm: | |
Leigh:
I attended the Fla Hospital church from about the early 90s to about a year or so ago. Dr. F is a wonderful, caring human being. He's suffered a lot with the illness and then death of his daughter. I always enjoyed when he came to SS because he always had some history tidbit about the SDA church during WWII (he is a history buff) He told us thant Hitler loved the SDA church because they were vegetarians, did not smoke nor drink and because the SDA church allowed him to used their printing presses to print his antisemitic propaganda. He does not beleive in the IJ at all. He is another individual who needs prayers to have the veil completely removed.
Did you go to Southern? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 3:21 pm: | |
Sabra, I don't know him and I haven't been to his church. I just heard about it from a friend of a friend that is involved in the group. As far as I can tell is that Adventism is the denomination that has the most truth and since that truth is biblically based and they're right on nearly everything, EGW is really superfluous, as all SDA doctrines can be proved fromthe Bible alone. He states on his website that he views EGW as a prophet "in the New Testament" sense (and cites Wayne Grudems definition). This phrase means that she is a true Spirit filled prophet, but unlike OT prophets is subject to error on some things. The one thing he thinks she was a little wrong on is the IJ starting in 1844, but then he tries desperately to salvage the sanctuary doctrine which ends up retaining the core of the IJ anyway. I have a hard to time understanding this approach. It seems to be an attempt to prove to evangelicals that Adventism is right without having to resort to the sticky situation of invoking a 19th century prophet. Perhaps I am being too hard on his group, but I don't see any effort to truly reform any of the heterodox doctrines. This type of approach is not likely to lead to a truly Christ centered, grace based statement of faith.
Chris |
Conniegodenick
Registered user
Username: Conniegodenick
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 5:58 pm: | |
Hi again,
I'm responding to several posts. I used to room with Ted Noel's cousin at Walla Walla--always a small world in Adventism!
I still have questions about specifically the issue of homosexuality. As a medical doctor it seems patently obvious to me that a person doesn't choose their sexual orientation. I've interviewed too many people to have reached any other conclusion. And while there are some well-publicized cases of "changing identities" I have also heard many more stories of the agonizing prayers and the attempts to change and then the realization that they are still of a homosexual orientation. The stock Christian answer is that these people are to be celibate forever. Somehow I just feel sorry for them and despite what the Bible says I can't bring myself to judge them. This is probably one of the areas where I can't bring myself to believe that the Bible is totally infallible. It would be like asking me to believe that the sky is green--simply because the Bible says so. I observe that it's blue--so in this area I'm still a little shaky. I don't think anyone can solve this debate--it's still raging in other arenas as well--just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 275
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 6:30 pm: | |
I don't know if you've ever listened to any of focus on the family's programs on homosexuality (Love won /one out). But they have some very good information about homosexuality. From the research done, a lot of it has to do with the child's development and his family situation. apparently there are consistencies in the histories of those people. I can't begin to remember all the details, but I know it has a lot to do with whether or not a boy has a positive, strong male role model in his life. FOTF has very loving programs, but immorality is immorality. I don't know how we can avoid what scripture says about it. (And I say that knowing my own sin....)
I know it seems they are born with it. I have a lesbian cousin and her mother swears that even as a baby she wouldn't let her hug her, but I think that's grasping at straws to prove something that already is. Funny thing is, my cousin eventually started dating a man ... when she was about 35. I don't know if she still is or not, but the family was quite shocked.
Family.org is Focus on the family's website. |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 7:14 pm: | |
Hi Jeannette,
I went to southern, and his daughter who passed away, was my roommate for 1 semester.
They are such a caring family who have been through alot. I will continue to pray for them.
Are you attending another church there in Orlando now? Did you attend Southern?
Leigh |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 7:33 am: | |
Hi Leigh:
My husband and I met at AUC, living in Central Florida we know a lot of people who have attended Southern. You know how it is in the adventist community, either you know someone who .... or know someone who knows someone who went to church with or shcool ..... Very small world
I am not attending church right now. I haven't had the courage to go alone, my husband doesn't want to go to any church on Sun feels that all the churches are the same and that talk is cheap.
There is a group meeting on Sun at one of the SDA churches we use to attend. The group is waypointe fellowship, they have a website waypointe.com. If any one has heard of them, please let me know what you think.
Thanks
Jeannette |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 67
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 9:59 am: | |
Mary Jane,
I heard this pastor the other night, his name is something Bloomer and he was raised SDA. He didn't talk a lot about that except to say that he was raised with a form of Godliness but denying the power therein. He went through a lot of drugs addiction, gangs, lived in the projects, his dad had 15 kids, outside of his marriage, there were a bunch in the house too. Anyways...he became a christian and is not SDA now.
He explained the origination of sin in a way I had never heard.
He said, that Lucifer was up there in heaven head of the choir, doing just fine and then he wanted to be God, so pride messed the whole thing up...we know all of that.
So, he says God has two choices, deal with him there or deal with him out of there. He said since God is timeless, eternal, not living or dealing in time, if he had "beat his head up against a wall" in heaven, He would have been doing it for all eternity.
So, He had to separate eternity and in the middle create time. In that "time space" He created the world. Eternity is divided sort of...this is deep, I know. So then He threw Lucifer down here and man and at the cross eternity was again joined together and closed up--back to no time. "When the fullness of time had come, God sent His Son..."
He said the biggest enemy Satan has is time, he has but a short time.
I know all of that is sort of strange. It got me to thinking that time is sort of opposite of God, which explains a lot about the Sabbath and things Jesus said. Also, something that was pointed out to me that I hadn't really thought of, is that anniliation is not a God thing because spirits seem to be eternal, either eternally with or apart from God. Rev. says the devil is cast into the lake of fire for ever and ever and ever. We have no concept of what forever is, we can only think of it in time, and it doesn't fit.
I guess, my point is no point, except that it is BIG and we can not figure it out. LOL!
God has to allow choice, that is His nature and the results of choice are all of those things that you describe. There seems to be some system in heaven where wickedness gets to a certain point and then God says that is it, there is talk about vials being full etc...
I know I am sort of rambling, I just know that God is there because He talks to me and what that proves is that either I'm nuts or He is talking to me. I never heard Him say a word before I got saved. He also has shown me so many miracles, supernatural, non-coincidental things. But mostly, He gave me the measure of faith I needed to believe. It's all about Him, I didn't do a thing!
I'm praying for you,
Sabra |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 7:09 pm: | |
Conniegodenick,
While some people are indeed born with a same-sex orientation, there are studies and many case histories that indicate that homosexuality can be acquired by one's childhood environment as well. The ideal family model still includes a mother and a father. For example, I have talked with many homosexual men whose fathers either died or deserted them when they were very young, and they were largely raised by their mothers. This type of evidence is too plentiful to overlook.
The fact that we are born with certain behavioral propensities (i.e., quick temper, impulsiveness, etc.)does not mean we should live them out in our lives. We may always be burdened with certain unwholesome desires and tastes this side of heaven; however, as born-again Christians, we will yield to the promptings of the Holy Spirit instead. God does not remove every obstacle in our lives. Whether we are heterosexual or homosexual in our orientation, sex outside of marriage is biblically forbidden. Truly, God never asks the impossible from us. We can fully trust the Bible as being God-breathed.
One does not need to look very far to see the devastating results in our society when sexual purity is violated. After all, God is the author of sex. He provides, through the Holy Spirit, the best choices for our happiness and salvation.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 11:31 pm: | |
Sabra,
I don't think that theory of Satan's fall can be right, because it would mean that Satan's sin was the reason for God creating the universe, and with it, man. The Bible nowhere indicates this. It does not say much for God's sovereignty either.
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works.
God bless,
Adrian |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 6:46 am: | |
It has been shown by many studies (ctscans, mri, etc) that certain parts of a homosexual's male brain is very similar to that of a female. While at Yuchi Pine (trying to find a cure for Crohn's)I met a young man who had tried to commit suicide several times because he did not want to be homosexual. He told me he knew he was different when he was just a little child and he tried to be just like every one else. He came from a very nice family setting. My husband has a cousin who also grew up in a very nice family, very christian parents (not SDA) and is homosexual. She had married a man but it just didn't work. I don't think people choose to be homosexual, just like people are born with physical defects or disorders I feel that most homosexuals are born that way. Just like science has shown that leprosy is caused by a contageous microorganism, not because the individual person sinned; science eventually will show weather homosexuality is casued by nature or by nurture.
Sorry, I hope i didn't offend anyone I just hurt for them becasue I've met quiet a few who wish they were different. |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 1:02 pm: | |
Hi Jeannette,
I looked up the way pointe site, but i couldn't access it for some reason. |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 19
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi Leigh:
It's my fault, it should be waypointe.org
Thank for trying
Jeannette |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 70
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 7:44 pm: | |
Doc,
It is a lot to think about. I'm still thinking about it too. In Genesis 1 darkness is over the face of the deep. Since God is light, what was the darkness? He saw the light was good and separated it from the darkness, never saying the darkness was good.
The snake was already in the garden--before the fall.
It's deep and I know....my pastor says throw out your rubik cube--you'll never figure it out.
Not essential to salvation and probably not appropriate here.
You're right, it leaves some questions. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:21 pm: | |
I have a colleague (she's a long-time 6th grade teacher; elementary ed. is her forte) who told me recently that about four years ago she was driving to work one morning, and on a major So. Cal. radio newscast, she heard a news report about a study recently released from UCLA. The study reported that boys under 5 (or 5 and under?) who were effeminate or showed female-type play/activity preferences had been specifically admitted to the study and had undergone counseling to retrain the children to learn male-type behaviors. The study showed that if a boy was admitted to appropriate counseling before the age of 5 (or up to the age of 5? Can't remember...) there was a VERY high success rate in getting those boys to see themselves as male.
This teacher (she's really bright and likes to have her factual ducks lined up) called the radio station to get the source of that story so she could do research for herself. The station informed her that they had run no such story. She insisted and explained when she heard it; they denied it. She never heard the story or saw it in print from any other source again. She's quite convinced that someone got the the station and squashed the story.
I do believe that possibly many people may be born with genetic predispositions to homosexuality, and given the right circumstances, it may quite "naturally" develop. Yet people are born with genetic predispositions to alcoholism, depression, rage, etc. as Dennis suggested above. People are accountable before God to surrender even their genetic predispositions to Him for healing and strength. I've come to believe that if the Bible calls it a sin, then we must see it as sin. Both testaments are very clear about the sin of homsexuality.
Sabbath rest MUST work at the points of our greatest weakness, or God's promises are not real.
BTW, check out songwriter and worship leader Dennis Jernigan's website and read his story of deliverance from homsexuality. It's an amazing story.
One last thought about homsexuals' brains: I don't believe that we can say for sure which came first, the behavior or the brain uniqueness. There have been other conditions which have been shown conclusively to alter the brain. Obsessive/compulsive disorder, for example, has a characteristic PET scan pattern. ( I saw and read a report about this in Discover magazine a few years ago.) After a person goes through behavioral modification and overcomes the OCD, the PET scan is completely changed.
I remember at the time realizing that the behavior had apparently altered the brain more than the brain had caused the behavior, and I immediately wondered what the implications could be for homsexuality. There are other conditions also which, when treated, change the PET scans, but I can't remember what they are right now.
That being said, God alone knows our frame and our weaknesses, and He alone can save us and make us new in him. Praise God for what he does in each of us!
Colleen |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:36 am: | |
As to whether or not homosexuality is a genetically based or environmentally caused phenomenon the jury is still out.
Apparently, many professionals in the field of psychology still regard it as a personality disorder which is how it was officially listed up until the 1980's when activists pressed to get it dropped from the list.
When I am engaged in discussing the issue with non-Christians one approach I use is to show them that in their non-God, evolutionary view, even if homosexuality is genetic it is a negative mutation as it does nothing to advance the species. Negative mutations are not supposed to survive.
Colleen makes the comparison with alcohoism, etc. and this is important to grasp. IMHO sin is not merely something we DO. It is what we ARE. When I understand sin in this definition it leads me to at least two responses to the phenomenon of homosexuality. 1)It is a sin regardless of whether we understand it's causes, and 2)it is no less forgiveable by God than any other sin.
Some of you will probably say yeah, that is obvious. The reason I laid this out is due to my own struggle with the issue over the years. As a normal man I feel a natural revulsion when I think of homosexuality. It took a long time of study and prayer to start realizing that I am no better than the homosexual. The only difference is that I am forgiven.
It is so easy to adopt a Pharisaical attitude towards homosexuals or anyone who differs from our view. This is dangerous ground. I have to constantly remind myself that His blood was shed for EVERY sin.
When I really look at the cross, and realize that I drove the nails, I am horrified at the monster that I was when under sin. Yet I could do nothing of myself. My salvation is the free gift of God. The same gift is there for all sinners.
(Sidebar) Our story is now posted in the story section.
Dane |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 276
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 6:48 am: | |
Colleen, I have heard the same information your friend heard on FOTF. They had a doctor who specialized in such things, and if I recall right, even up to the age of 14, boys can begin to experience identity crises and if put in a strong mentoring type relationship with a strong male those things can be turned around. I still can't remember many details, but the information your friend shared would be highly offensive in the gay community who wants to believe they were born that way. And in reality, they weren't in an age to do anything about it. But I love Dane's point most of all. Heterosexual immorality is no lesser sin than homosexual immorality. I'm always amazed at people who throw stones...especially those living in glass houses. My heart aches as I see people, in the name of Christ, picking out one sin to villify (spelling??) as though others are less evil.
I am so thankful for the blood myself. |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hi Sabra,
As you say, not a salvation issue, but fun to speculate. I reckon the darkness was simply physical darkness, present before light (or the electro-magnetic spectrum) was created. "Darkness" does not always have to have a spiritual meaning. I have always thought (must have read it somewhere), that the fall of Satan took place somewhere between Genesis 2 and 3. Of course, the Bible does not state this specifically. The reasoning is, that when God finished his work of creation, then he stated that it was all "very good" (Gen 1: 31). It is stated in Job 38: 7 that all the angels rejoiced at creation (morning stars and sons of God are understood as angels.) If all the angels rejoiced at creation, then none of them had fallen into sin by then. The snake, presenting Satan, then appears in Genesis 3, so the fall occurred between creation and the temptation of man. That is the logic, maybe it is faulty, who knows?
God bless,
Adrian |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
As an extension of my previous post I would like to add a couple of thoughts.
If I understand the Word correctly on the sin issue, "being a sinner" becomes a non-issue for those who are born again. The issue now is whether we allow temptation to take root so that it becomes our desire. I believe it is at this point that we sin. This is why we are commanded to flee temptation and evil.
To me, at a practical level, when I have a half-gallon of Edie's Espresso Chip icecream in front of me I have to resist the temptation to eat the entire thing instead of just one serving. And I admit that I am only sucessful at this about half the time. In the same vein, when I am in a conversation with an attractive woman I must a decision of my "Spirit supported will" that I will not allow myself to get into a situation when I might be tempted. Just so with any area of temptation. I think that we as individuals are responsible for analyzing our points of weakness and taking appropriate measures. Like Dirty Harry said "a man's got to know his limitations."
Dane |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 1:08 pm: | |
Dane,
I like the "unfavourable mutation" - good one. I agree that homosexuality is just one form of sexual sin. I personally know people who have been able to overcome this particular sin by the blood of Jesus and the help of the Holy Spirit. I am sure it is not easy, and is to be admired, but the point is, if Jesus is in number one position in one's life, and one's heart's desire is to please God, then one is able to deny one's natural (i.e. sinful) tendencies. This applies to a great many things, not just sexual desires. Gossiping and judging others, for example. The heart attitude is all important.
I sort of have a problem of conscience trying to explain to non-Christians that it is wrong, or looking down on them. I know that the answer is Jesus, but do we have a right to impose Christian standards on non-Christians without giving them the answer - i.e. to receive the power necessary to overcome?
There is a very vocal anti-homosexual lobby among conservative Christians, but it sometimes seems very harsh and condemning, and certainly not compassionate. For one thing, I don't think this attitude will have the desired effect, i.e. encourage homosexuals to come to Christ, and another point is, I don't think Jesus would have behaved like that.
Rambling again!
Adrian |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 175
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:51 pm: | |
Adrian, I agree with you. Sometimes I think the conservative anti-homosexual lobby is somewhat self-serving: remove this disconcerting problem from my sight!
We can't "look down" on this problem. We all have equally sinful "problems". What exactly to say to a non-Christian about it is tough; perhaps our attitude toward it should be similar to that of our attitude toward alcoholism. In other words, there's no point stirring up public feeling about the problem, but if one knows an alcoholic who is struggling with his addiciton, be can offer the hope of "the power necessary to overcome."
In this country right now, however, I do have some strong feelings about the incursion of the "gay agenda" into elementary school curriculae and the quiet but inexorable insistence that from childhood up people learn to consider all pairings as equal. I know how much a part of the general background attitudes public opinions become in children's minds. It's hard to learn to think ethically and morally about generally held societal attitudes when one grows up with them. In a way, it's like learning that meat is food after some decades of being taught it's not. Your head might learn the truth, but the heart really has a hard time following.
What to do about the problem, though, I don't know except to speak what I believe to the kids in my own life. Praise God that WE don't have to have the solution to these problems! We just need to be willing to speak for Jesus when he asks us to speak.
Colleen |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:08 pm: | |
I'm avoiding the homosexuality topic, obviously. I don't have enough info. I do believe that it is sin. I also have a hard time believing that it is something we are born with as we don't see any homosexual animals and if it were some gene problem seems it would affect anything that has genes. My own personal thought.
I also think that it seems to stem from feeling unaccepted and wanting acceptance and love and those are found in Christ. If a person understands their identity in Christ I don't see that they could remain homosexual, but I have heard testimonies of some that struggled with it even after they supposedly became christians, but were later delivered.
Did anyone happen to see Oprah last Friday? Scary show about men that are married or otherwise involved with women secretly sleeping with men. They don't consider themselves homosexual and the guy she interviewed said the best place to find a man like this was in the churches! YUCK! --Seems Sodom and Gomorrah have come back to haunt us. |
Mary_jane
Registered user
Username: Mary_jane
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:26 pm: | |
I need to add something to this thread. I agree with you all in many ways about homosexuality, but, in my case, I have known some, and when you personallhy know some of the persons you are talking about, it's not such a clinical issue. One was a person I really enjoyed being around. He brightened up the room with his outgoing, unusual personality. People told me he was gay, and for years I would not agree with them. We worked for the same agency, but in different offices. I considered him probably the most "Christian" person I had met. He could certainly NOT be "homosexual". After years of denying it, one day he brought his "significant other" in to meet us. It was a man. That made me re-think a lot of things. I certainly don't know the answer. But I can't just condemn them, either.
Also, I've heard that children born from drug-taking mothers, or alcoholic mothers, can be born with very altered brains. They say these children don't have the same sense of respect for authority, or perhaps even a conscience. Born without a conscience! Where does this come in? How do we handle a problem like that. If they don't have a conscience, how do they ever realize what sin is? I've been around some drug babies, who have grown up. My husband has two grandsons who were born that way and raised by parents who were on drugs, especially when they were small. They are now in prison, aged 19 amd 21. I was just surprised they didn't end up there five or six years before that.
How about that kind of problem. Their father said he was disciplined "too much" when he was a child, so he refused to discipline them when they were children. I believe they were what he would have been had he NOT been disciplined as a child...and he was more than enough of a problem.
I certainly don't have any answers!
Mary Jane |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 282
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 8:03 am: | |
Yes, Sabra, I did. And I was horrified. Makes you afraid to trust even your spouse. I was particularly struck by the statistic that 72% of all new aids cases are in women...and they're getting it from their spouses, usually. How sad!
Mary Jane, I also work with a huge creative community. And we have a number of gays in our work environment. I used to think gays hated people of the opposite sex, but that is wrong. As I've gotten to know many of them in my work situation, I've come to see them beyond their sexual sin to their lost status before a holy God. I know some who have died of aids and that was my first indication they were gay. They are first and foremost people who need Christ. And just as the heterosexual man can continue to struggle with morality after his conversion, why do we think less of a homosexual man?
God has taken me a long way from the perspective I used to have largely based upon the media coverage of hate-types. No doubt, it is a sin. But it is not the sin above all sins. The more I've stumbled in my own life, however, the greater compassion i gain for those who also stumble.
To the points made above, though, we absolutely will not win anyone by the "truth" we hear in the media from SOME Christians who always seem to get the spotlight. When Billy Graham was asked about it, he gave a perfectly correct response and started to turn my whole view. He said the Bible defines it as sin, but so is lying and stealing and cheating. It is not the unforgiveable sin. The compassion he had for the people was obvious. And I wanted to come across like him, not like some others I've heard.
It's sure easy to pick on an area we don't personally have a problem with and feel a little "good" about ourselves...at least it is for me.
Above all...love.... |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 7:12 pm: | |
Hi Jeanette,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you about this. I looked up the way pointe website and read their statement of faith and it sounds good, as long as they are preaching the true gospel of grace and are preaching biblically sound doctrine. So is it a local non denominational church or do they have others in other part of the country? How many people attend?
Leigh |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 101
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
Jeanette,
You said somewhere above that CT scans/MRIs show that a homosexual male brain is similar to a female brain. It reminded me of something my son told me when he was in college. He was taking a psychology of women class. One day the teacher gave them a form to fill out. What this form showed each student was how many male/female traits they had. So I can understand why a male homosexual's brain is similar to a female. But, I have also read/heard somewhere that there is a 12 step program for homosexuals. If a person really does not want that, they can leave it, with God's help.
Wish I could remember where I read or heard about the 12 step program for homosexuals.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Diana |
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