| Author | Message | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2004 |
Oh...I¥m so frustrated. Somebody here talked about praying for SDA church for its repenting and changing its teachings. I say: Fat change! It¥s never going to happen. Finnish SDAs¥have a discussion list in internet and I recently got its address. First I just went through conversations and read all it. And what it was. Just arguing about Investigating Judgment and it¥s origin whether it¥s true or not and where it came from. Banging each other heads with twisted Bible verses and "thus said EGW" quotes. Then I threw few questions about sabbath, laws and dared to contradict their view. Now my mail is almost choking in all those traditional answers. They assume a lot and then of course they find a verse to support their assumes. They assume that "of course Adam and Eve must have kept sabbath because God kept it" and "of course there must be Decalogue to Adam because killing Abel was a sin" and blaa blaa. And of course that "don¥t throw baby out with the water" They are absolutely stuck in their interpretations, assumings and turning their head away from anything else. They refuse even THINK about any other option. There were in some post a glimpse of looking another way that SDAs but it soon turned out to be a illusion. It was only a moment and next sentence was: "..Yes, it is quite possible it means that, but actually it doesn¥t. It actually means..." I send one reply in that list and said "in Christ is everything" (of course little longer way) but it¥s endless road to indulge in conversations with them. Sooner or later you notice that they make you believe that black is actually white and even prove it with Bible. There is people who hesitate and are unsure what to do. They thirst for true Gospel but they don¥t find it. One sister wrote me: Good, Tuija. That felt good and refreshed my faith. I¥m sure there are several sisters and brothers who read that list and are hoping that somebody have the courage to "splash that duckpool". Maybe my example is enough to somebody and courages to make a decision for truth and stand for it. My sisters and brothers. Stand for truth and have courage to disturb "duckpools". You may reinforce somebody who¥s weak and give impulse to leave lies and seek the truth. John 8:43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word." I¥m praying for those weak and thirsting people. They need our prayers. Tuija | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2003 |
They do, Tuija. I agree. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2004 |
This thread so reminded me of an article Iíve read about the ìreligious spiritî that I thought I would like to quote some from it. Even if you donít agree with all of it, perhaps it will be a blessing in some respects: ìA religious spirit is a demon which seeks to substitute religious activity for the power of the Holy Spirit in the believerís life. Its primary objective is to have the church ëholding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its powerí (2 Tim 3:5). The apostle Paul completed his exhortation with ëavoid such men as these.í This religious spirit is the ëleaven of the Pharisees and Sadduceesí (Matthew 16:6) of which the Lord warned His disciples to bewareÖ ìOne of the most deceptive characteristics about the religious spirit is that it is founded upon zeal for God. We tend to think that zeal for God cannot be evil, but that depends on why we are zealous for Him. Paul wrote of his Jewish brethren in Romans 10:2 ëFor I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.í ÖThe truly zealous are the most difficult to stop, so the enemyís strategy against those that he cannot stop is to push them too far. His first step is to get them to glory in their own zeal. Regardless of how important a gift or characteristic is that we have, if the enemy can get us to take pride in it he will have us in his snare and will use that gift for evilÖ ìThe religious spirit builds its work on two basic foundationsófear and pride. The religious spirit seeks to have us serve the Lord in order to gain His approval, rather than from a position of having received our approval through the cross of Jesus. Therefore the religious spirit bases relationship to God on personal discipline rather than the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ. The motivation for doing this can be either fear or pride, or a combination of bothÖ ìIdealism is one of the most deceptive and destructive disguises of the religious spirit. Idealism is of human origin and is a form of humanism. It has the appearance of only seeking the highest standards and the preservation of Godís glory. However, idealism is possibly the most deadly enemy of true revelation and true grace. It is deadly because it does not allow for growing up into grace and wisdom, but attacks and destroys the foundation of those who are in pursuit of Godís glory, but are not yet thereÖ ìWhen a religious spirit is founded upon pride, it is evidenced by perfectionism. The perfectionist sees everything as black or white. This develops into extremes as it requires that everyone and every teaching be judged as either 100% right or 100% wrong. This is a standard with which only Jesus could comply; it will lead to a serious delusion when we impose it on ourselves or others. True grace imparts a truth that sets people free, showing them the way out of their sin, or to higher levels of spiritual maturity. ìBecause we now ësee through a glass darkly,í or in part, we are compelled to always be open to greater accuracy in our beliefs and teachings. One of the greatest delusions of all is that we are already complete in our understanding, or 100% accurate in our perceptions or actions. Those with a religious spirit will usually both teach and claim to be open to more understanding, but most of the time this is done to get everyone else to be open to what they teach, while they remain steadfastly closed to other.î Praise God... | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 |
I'm in agreement with the article Praisegod quoted in her post. I would add that in my opinion a person or group with a "religious spirit" cannot at the same time have the spirit of humility. Without humility one cannot grow in truth. Praisegod, can you provide the source of the quote? Also, I just submitted our story of leaving SDA. Don't know when it will be posted. Dane | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2004 |
Being new to the forum I hesitate to say anything, but I just have to say this: God may not change the whole SDA church from the top down (I cannot see that happening in my life time), but change is possible with individuals. You never know when one person starts thinking about what you have said, starts studying the Bible and learns God's wonderful truth. So, plant the seed and let God take care of the results. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict. All we can do is plant the seed and leave the results to God. As a former SDA I can get frustrated with SDA's who say they know so much about the Bible and then I have to remember, God is in charge. Let him take care of it. Just let go and let God. It reminds me of the serenity prayer. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference". I can only change me and I cannot even do that by myself. I need God's help to do it. I cannot change anyone else. That is God's job. | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2004 |
Flyinglady, it doesn¥t matter are you new or old, we all have precious thoughts and we are interested of them. So don¥t hesitate, just bring them out. And what you say about God¥s job I agree fully. I just hope that SDAs realize it, too. It¥s God job to do all the work in individual. We can only lead people to God. Nothing else. In those many mails I got there one person wrote: "Bible has nowhere said that Sabbath was abolished." But what about John 5:18. In finnish translation from 1938 (which I think is most authentic to other translations) there is clearly a word "abolish" (or "refute" or "cancel"). Not "broke" as later translation from 1992 says. When I look at english translation there is a word "broke" (KJV). And breaking something is quite different to abolishing something, right? What is the original word in that verse? Tuija | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2004 |
The short answer: Strong's G3089 loo'-o A primary verb; to ìloosenî (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486. If you search here you get a broader explanation: http://www.blueletterbible.org/ Just type in the verse and see all the different lexicons and other information they can give you. For me, all the various study tools made it so much easier to study my way out of the SDA church. I've often wondered if the internet had been available many years earlier if I would have left much sooner. Praise God... | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 68 Registered: 2-2003 |
I was reading that verse yesterday, too. Don't the Adventists try to say that Jesus didn't really break the Sabbath according to God's law, just the excess rules for the Sabbath that the Jews came up with? But it you look at the rest of the passage, the Jews also accused him of saying that God was his Father, which he definately DID do. Is there any other sin besides breaking the sabbath (and telling someone else to break the sabbath) and blasphemy that they accused him of? | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks Praisegod, that webside is very useful. I studied that and made a very interesting notice. There were 3 translations to that greek word "luo" used in John 5:18. and they all meant to loose somebody from something. 1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened 2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together AND: Verb Strong's Number: 3089 Greek: luo "to loosen," especially by way of deliverance, sometimes has the meaning of "breaking, destructively," e.g., of "breaking" commandments, not only infringing them, but loosing the force of them, rendering them not binding, Mat 5:19; Jhn 5:18; of "breaking" the Law of Moses, Jhn 7:23; Scripture, Jhn 10:35; of the "breaking up" of a ship, Act 27:41; of the "breaking down" of the middle wall of partition, Eph 2:14; of the marriage tie, 1Cr 7:27. See DESTROY, DISSOLVE, LOOSE, MELT, PUT, Note (5), UNLOOSE. This is quite bad news to SDAs. Just breaking the law (covenant, councel) there is quite another word for that: "parabasis", "parabates". Tuija | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 164 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dale Ratzlaff wrote a really good article a few years ago re: the fact that during his life on earth, Jesus systematically broke the law. He touched lepers and healed them, he touched dead people and raised them, he allowed his disciples to eat grain without ritual washing, etc. Dale said one reason the Pharisees were so angry with Jesus was that his whole life was spent demonstrating that in HIM the laws were fulfilled. He deliberately broke the law--including the Sabbath law, not merely the rabbinical add-ons--by healing on Sabbath and having the healed "pick up their beds and walk", etc. In Jesus is the fulfillment of law, and we are privileged to live under the authority of the One who kept what I cannot keep and who holds me, in Him, to a standard higher than the law held me! Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2003 |
those translations of the greek word "luo" are very interesting. I use that website alot to look texts up, but have just recently been using the greek and hebrew lexicon. Here is the listing under the 3rd translation that Tuija mentioned above. 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds c) to annul, subvert d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act e) to declare unlawful f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy h) metaph., to overthrow, to do away with | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praisegod, I am wondering what article you were quoting from in your April 14th post? Was it online or from another source? I would like to read the entire article if possible as I found it very insightful. Thank you for sharing it - Spokenfor | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dane and Spokenfor, Iíve not been avoiding you. I purposefully left off the reference when I originally posted because Iím not too sure that we wouldnít all be somewhat critical of the author. I canít even remember how I happened to stumble upon a web site with this info a few months ago. But it was very helpful to me to understand what was going on at my husbandís church. Also, I was able to share some of this with a few select SDAs as the Holy Spirit directed. The article is by Rick Joyner and I just did a web search and found the full article. Iíd be interested in any feedback from the article if anyone has the time to read the entire thing. http://www.mindspring.com/~apostle2/r_joyner.htm. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you for the info Praisegod. You're right that he's not someone whose stuff I would normally read but I will look at the rest of this article. | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you for the source Praisegod. Even someone like Joyner is going to get some things right. I view him and most in the Revival/renewal movement as being outside of orthodox Christianity. Several of the R/R leaders including Joyner claim prophetic gifts and remind me a lot of EGW. These people teach a different gospel. By the way, our story is now posted in the story section of the forum. Dane | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 280 Registered: 7-2003 |
I loved the testimony, Dane. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Dane, I do not really have any favourite authors, and I do not think it is worth while spending a great deal of time attacking or defending specific ministers, particulary if I do not know them personally. After all, almost anyone could be a clever rouge out to make money. However, I have read a little EGW and a little Rick Joyner, and as far as I can recall, there is no resemblance between them at all. I read a book by Rick Joyner on the Welsh revival (1904-05), which was very good. I do not recall anything in there which would constitute a false gospel. In fact, he seemed keen to stress the work of the Holy Spirit in revival, part of the work of the Spirit being to glorify Jesus and draw all men to Him. He also mentioned that in the Welsh revival this seemed to happen without a great deal of emphasis on "superstar" ministers - all the emphasis was on the work of God. As far as I can see, if Jesus gets the glory and not people, then that is how it should be. In contrast, Ellen White constantly stresses how she is a messanger of God, and if people do not listen to her and do what she says they are rejecting the Holy Spirit. Did you have an specific "false gospel" in mind? God bless, Adrian | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2003 |
Doc, my sister is very supportive of Joyner and has sent me several of his books. I have read all of them cover to cover and approached them with prayer and an open mind. I initially viewed Joyner very positively, but as I read more and more I realized that if I tested him according to scripture and according to the same criteria I had applied to test EGW that he fared quite poorly indeed. Just to name a few of the problems I discovered: 1) Joyner not only claims to be a prophet of God, but an Apostle. In fact, he goes so far as to say that he is part of a new breed of super-apostles that will suprpass the apsotles of the NT in power. 2) Joyner's "quest" vision, especially the second installment "the call" is extrememly grandiose and self-serving to say the least (see #1 above). 3) In one of his visions (I believe it was the second book of the "Quest" vision "The Call" he speaks to the dead while in vision. 4) Joyner has made numerous false prophecies that he claimed were given to him by God in vision. The most notable was his doomsday predictions regarding Y2K. 5) Joyner's "Shadows of Things to Come" follows the SDa line of pinning THE BEAST on Catholicism. 6)The fact that one of Joyners books seems to make Catholicism out to be the beast of Revelation is specially puzzeling when you consider that Joyner admits to being part of a supposedly anchient order of Catholic knights. The knights of Malta were rumored to be a mystical order, something akin to the Knights Templar. He downplays the significance of this, but it at the very least odd and yet very consistent of the picture he paints of himself in The Quest and The Call. 7) Joyner is using ministry funds to build a compound that is designed to last for 1000 years becasue God told him to. 8) Joyner believes in dominion theology and believes that Christians will gain dominion through the stock market and business.....so start investing now......especially in the enterprises he is involved in. This is not an attack on an individual, but a heartfelt appeal for honest discernment in the church. I view this much like EGW. Anyone who really wants to know the truth on this can simply compare his books to the Bible. Also like EGW, there is also a wealth of evidence about the major problems with his message and ministry readily available on the internet. However, also like EGW, many will choose to disregard, refuse to look at the evidence, explain it away, or disemble to minimize the problems. But for those who really want to know, here are few resources: http://www.pfo.org/r-joyner.htm http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j08.html http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/joyner.html | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 69 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi Chris, Thanks for the information. As I said, I am not a particular fan of Joyner's, I just enjoyed his book on the Welsh revival. In the light of the above, he certainly does fare pretty poorly. Anyone who makes use of a so-called ministry gift to make lots of money sets off an alarm call for me. Adrian |
