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Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most likely Iím not the only one who has wished I had gotten out of the SDA church sooner than I did. I went through a phase of being frustrated with God for not opening my eyes many years sooner. But since Godís ways are nothing like our ways, I have to ask myself why we on this website (a group that strikes me as extremely bright and articulate) have been chosen to have such a massive paradigm shift. I realize that I was so steeped in Adventism, itís just a total miracle that Iím one God could release into complete freedom. But if we were in Adventism and even with our past ìall things work together for goodî, why not capitalize on Godís promise and use it for others?

Sabra challenged us to pray in agreement for the denomination as well as for individuals. That pierced my heart because, quite honestly, her faith must be a lot greater than mine because Iíve been rather hopeless over the denomination changing. But then I realize that is my natural mind. Thatís my western mindset that has trouble embracing that Jesus said we would do greater things than he did. Thatís my logical, rational old Adventist mind that discounts signs, wonders and miracles. And Iím sure we all could agree that any shift of the denomination to being totally gospel based would truly be a miracle of great magnitude.

Rather than just praying individual general prayers, is there some precise focus we can be praying for? Any particular department? Any particular person? Is there even anyone else who will join in praying such a seemingly impossible prayer?

Praise GodÖ
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PraiseGod,

Since leaving Adventism I have seen so many miracles. I've seen 2 deaf people healed, prayed for a girl with an imoporable uterine tumor that was healed, disappeared! My pastor prayed over a lady with colon cancer, she had a year to live and the tumor dislodged and fell out! No trace of cancer anywhere.

A man came to our church from Rwanda and spoke for 3 days on how prayer changed that country. Just a few believers committed to pray, they took turns and prayed constantly. Muslims were killing them everywhere, he said the bodies were everywhere, you had to step over them to get to work. Today that country is 95% christian, the President is a christian, he said everywhere you go, banks, grocery store, have christian music, the schools teach the bible and the aids poulation went from 95% to 15% because God has healed so many with aids. He told us about crippled people with limbs so distorted they had never walked, just getting up and walking.

He said in America we pray for a good parking spot. We dont' believe in the power of God.

You ask a good question? What are we doing here? Wallowing in our misery, complaining about how unfairly treated we have been, whining and complaining. I'm just as guilty. Forgive me Lord. I do believe in miracles and the power of God. I do feel I have been called out for a reason. I will continue to pray and believe for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the deceived Adventist church. I know there are people there that are genuinely deceived and would accept truth.

God loves them and wants them saved.
Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God HAS poured His Holy Spirit on the SDA church several times. Every time a significant change away from the cultic teachings towards orthodox Christianity was possible, I can see the hand of God working on the Adventist people. However, the leaders during those significant times chose not to follow God, but to follow the Shepherd with "a different voice."

We can continue to pray for the individuals WITHIN the snare of the enemy, but the only prayer I now have for the SDA church is that it is converted as the Worldwide Church of God was converted, or that it is destroyed so that it can no longer poison the minds of my children.

I guess I'm the dissenting voice from "agreeing" for the denomination. For people, YES. For the denomination, NO. It must repent for it's evils propagated for over 150 years. It must repent for leaving thousands, now millions in darkness without the hope of free salvation by the Blood of Jesus.

As Jesus criticized the "church" leadership most strongly in His time, today there are also Sons of the Devil, at work to make disciples. They will only reap eternal punishment.

I always pray for the individuals, especially those I've known, my children and my ex-wife. But the denomination is not on it's way TO hell; it is sent FROM hell to deceive. That is it's primary purpose. May it fail dreadfully.

Steve
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why don't we agree to pray at a certain time on a specific day for the SDA church as a whole and for our own individiual family and friends. My whole family was raised SDA. None of them go to church now and one of the sister's I told about why I will no longer be SDA asked some questions but shows no interest in any thing at the moment.
One brother belongs to a Messianic Jewish temple and our youngest brother, who knew all this before me, does not go to any church.
If anyone needs praying for it is our SDA friends and relatives.
Hallanvaara
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Username: Hallanvaara

Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Steve. SDA are so similar to Pharisees.
And what Christ said about the church of Laodikean. Rev. 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked..."

I think this is excatly said to SDA church.

I believe God can make miracles, of course He can.
But He also sends us so strong deceiving that it deceives even the selected ones if possible. That¥s why we must be alerted and pray for individuals that they keep their hearts in Jesus.

Tuija
Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Tuija.

I have studied cults, the occult, and isms for almost 30 years. I would never pray for a revival in the Mormon church, for Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science church, Moonies, etc. There was never any truth there to "revive."

The same with SDA. They started out strongly cultic, anti-trinitarian, with a false prophet. I would never pray for a "revival" of THAT. The church needs to be reformed or destroyed. The people need to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

The leadership must renounce their doctrines. Anything short of that is a false reformation and false regeneration.

Steve
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a difference between revival and reformation. Steve is right; the Adventist church needs repentance and reformation, not revival. The individual members, including the leadership, need to be set free by Jesus and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

If the Adventist church truly experienced repentance and reformation in the way the Worldwide Church of God experienced it, that phenomenon could be a powerful witness in the world.

God is at work, though; more and more Adventists are beginning to ask questions, read the Bible, find Jesus, and leave the church. I can't presume to know what "form" God wants the awakening of Adventists to take. Whether the church repents and reforms or not, God will not leave the honest-hearted in darkness. One way or another, he will reveal himself and provide opportunities for Adventists to choose the truth or not.

I do believe we need to pray for Adventists. The fact that we have been Adventists uniquely qualifies us to understand how desperately they need intercession. Sometimes I ask God to help me know how I should pray and for whom.

I was particularly struck by this whole Adventist-harvest phenomenon yesterday as we had our annual Easter viewing of the The Visual Bible's "Matthew". Jesus told his disciples to pray that God would send workers for the harvest, because the field is ripe. There are so many deceptive twists to Adventism right now that it is crucial that they hear the true gospel.

For example, I have a friend who teaches at an Adventist college. She says that more and more students are caught up in a "grace-oriented" movement which stresses that we are saved entirely by grace, but this declaration does not focus on the need to repent or on the holiness and justice of God which stands behind the miracle of grace. Consequently, scores of young people are mouthing the "right" "grace words" without understanding their own need to be broken before the cross of Jesus.

I do believe that God is asking us to be ready to speak for him when he brings us the opportunities, and he is also asking us to pray for the Adventists who will always be parts of our lives because of where we've originated!

Praise God for the work he gives us to do!

Colleen
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear all of you and I agree it is a church of the devil and for the purpose of deceiving the sheep, (or not yet sheep) to minimize the sacrifice of Jesus, to diminish grace. I don't recall saying anything about revival, I agree, revival is out of the question since there is nothing to revive.

What I pray for is that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth, then each person can decide. I never saw truth until I prayed for it and who knews, if someone would have prayed for me, maybe it wouldn't have been so late in life.

I see that Max Lucado has "come out" from his original beliefs in the Church of Christ, he says he nows believes in music in the church and that baptism doesn't save, I read a long letter he wrote.

Then there is the WWCoG, wow! and that SDA church in MD, can't recall the name but they are now meeting on Sunday. God is doing great things in breaking down denominational walls in His church. Even my cousin's church is really, I'd have to say, understanding grace. Her preacher has said that it doesn't matter what you eat, what you wear, they are doing a study on Romans. Lots going on there.

I specifically pray for the leaders in the conference, the pastors and the members, that their eyes would be opened to truth. That is my prayer. Any agreement would be so appreciated.

I love you guys, I totally understand the resentment, the heartache, the hopelessness, I do. Praying that I can use all of that negative energy and turn it into something positive. It's hard.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 261
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't realize Max Lucado was COC. I have a number of friends who used to be. Their stories sound almost as legalistic as SDAs even though they really didn't use the OT that much. Very interesting. But the whole denomination didn't change....

You know, I donít know if it makes a difference, but the WWCG came out of itís deception comparatively close to the death of itís central figure (Armstrong). And they didnít come out completely unscathed. I read a book by a former WWCG minister who is now lutheran who was in the conference office when all of it happened, and it seems that as the church did not have the leadership of Armstrong, and people began studying the Bible for themselves, they reached a cross-roads naturally as they were trying to follow the Bible. They could choose the teachings of the Bible or those of Armstrong. Fortunately, their top person choose the Bible and defended the Bible. White has been dead 90 years?? They have been defending her since she was alive and even the conference leaders in 1919 were too cowardly to stand up for the scriptures even without EGW being alive. They have been defending her so long, and the explanations for her errors are so ingrained in their thoughts, Iím not really sure the comparisons are really close. When the WWCG changed, there was a huge split and there are numerous splinter groups that developed to preserve armstrongism. Even if the religion (SDA) did have a leader courageous enough to acknowledge the historic errors, I think there would be the same reaction with splinter groups breaking off and trying to maintain the SDA distinctives. So, just changing the religion itself doesnít mean that the people we love and care about within the religion would accept those changes verses breaking away into their own version of Adventism. Yes, God can do anything. But people also have a free-will. We have to let God work his way and hope they will choose him.
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasnít it Roger Bannister who broke through the 4-minute mile barrier that people thought couldnít be broken? Then all kinds of other people followed shortly after. It seemed like a dam broke once it had been proven doable. Well, weíve seen it doableóthe WWCG was transformed into orthodox Christianity. So weíve got a pattern thatís been set. Iím sure if God could handle breaking down one denomination, he can now be up for a bigger challenge with Seventh-day Adventists if thatís how he chooses to operate. It seems to be a bigger challenge because of the hierarchal structure and for reasons Melissa pointed out.

I just went to the official website and see that 2005 brings a world General Conference session. If itís still as I recall, those meetings, or should I say the nearly 2000 delegates, control the church. Looking at the big picture, it seems that the denomination is becoming much less US based or even western based as a church. Logically that would suggest the denomination would be going backwards into a more legalistic or restrictive religion.

Perhaps God will choose to work from the ground up within Adventism. If the average member recognized the power they could have, things could change. But it seems Adventist minds are so molded to the party line that they wonít stand up and pursue grass root initiatives. I remember the last constituency meeting I attended as an Adventist delegate. There was a motion from the floor about combining the conference with the regional conference. It was a well thought through plan and passed overwhelmingly in spite of conference protest. However, guess what happened after that? Nothingóabsolutely nothing as far as I could ever tell. No administrator wants to lose his job, which would most certainly have happened by combining conferences. But the members werenít organized enough to continue pursuing what they had initiated and managed to get passed.

Splintering the church into factions such as the WWCG wouldnít be all bad. With that type of upheaval more people would have to decide where they really stand for themselves. Historic Adventists would naturally break off, but already they are quite separatist, running their own camp meetings and such I believe. My guess is that many more WWCG members are now grace-based Christians because of what happened, even though the denomination appears decimated and many have probably moved on to other churches.

So Iíll agree with Sabra for peopleís eyes to be opened to the truth of the pure Gospel without false Adventist distinctives. And specifically Iíd like to pray for the leaders and delegates for that meeting thatís over a year away.

And too Iíd like to pray for all of us here. I rather envy my daughter and son-in-law who left Adventism and donít have much contact now with Adventists. For those of us with Adventist spouses, friends and relatives very close by we need all the prayer we can get, at least I do. It can be so frustrating trying to interact. It can be so hard to get past our own baggage from processing out. And it can be so hard just to let go and let God deal with highly complex issues. Iíve found that sometimes ìjust prayingî is really hard work.

Praise GodÖ
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 293
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the break-up of the SDA church is already happening...I predict they implode! I know of several, I am guessing 10-15 people (families) who are leaving, thinking of leaving or have left the SDA church in the last 2 years. God is moving but I think he is doing it on an individual basis with the SDA's...I think He had more to work with in the WWCOG. I don't think they had the HUGE pride issue that SDA have. That is the spirit of Adventism...pride. Think about it.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 263
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right....pride is Satan's trademark ... it's how he got where he is....

But don't forget the arro
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 264
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oops...Still learning the fine art of posting.

arrogance that is. They go hand in hand.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 148
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, you're right; the SDA church really is beginning to fall apart, at least in North America. And at the same time it's losing members, there are renewed grass-roots pushes to return to the hallmarks of "yesterday". My friend at the SDA college told me that all the classrooms had a new weekly publication left in them over the weekend. It's apparently published by students, yet the editorial staff does not print their names anywhere in the publication. It's calling all who read back to the Adventist understanding of eschatology, Revelation, and so forth. It's urging readers to become involved in studying and equipping themselves to preach "the whole gospel", and it (the periodical) promises to make a weekly appearance.

Regarding the WWCG, I spoke to Joe Tkach, the Pastor General, in the mid-90's right after the split. He told me how bad the membership fallout was. I don't remember the exact percentages, but my memory seems to recall that over 50% left the denomination because they did not want to embrace the new covenant. Those break-aways have formed numerous cultic groups of their own patterned mostly after the original WWCG beliefs.

I also corresponded briefly with someone much more recently who had attended a reformed WWCG congegation for a time while this person broke away from Adventism. He was disatisfied with the congregation because it was so rigid.

That report doesn't reflect on the whole denomination, obviously, yet it does address what I believe confronts a congregation which tries to retain its identity although breaking from its cultic past. Unless they are blessed with a remarkable pastor (which I believe Richard Fredericks of Damscus Road in MD and Clay Peck of Grace Place in CO are), they will continue to reflect the power struggles and "Adventist"-types of problems they had before.

In both Frederick's and Peck's cases, they experienced a huge attrition rate AFTER they separated as a willing congregation from the conferences and began preaching clearly that the New Covenant does not require Sabbath-keeping. In Clay's case, they made a move that turned out to be extremely beneficial: they merged with another gospel-preaching local church. That merger resulted in the former Adventist members who remained being able to worship with other Christians who had no SDA background, including the nurturing of the other congregation's pastor who became the assoc. pastor of the new church. Simultaneously, the other congregation became sensitized and welcoming to people with Adventist backgrounds and no doubt benefitted from Clay's (their new senior pastor) clear gospel/new covenant teaching.

In Frederick's case, his shift to Sunday worship was traumatic to his congregation. As they struggled to survivie the resulting chaos, Fredericks increasingly advertised the church as a Community Church, and he adopted a stance that largely eliminated specific, focused ministry for Adventists and former Adventists. He has written some great articles and makes available some great new covenant sermons, but he does not see his ministry as primarily dealing with Adventist issues. His focus is the the cross and the gospel of grace.

Mark Martin's case is different yet. He left Adventism and the Adventist ministry. He eventually took a job as a pastor of a Calvary Chapel in Phoenix, and he now has a thriving, multi-thousand congregation. He does maintain a specific former Adventist online ministry (sdaoutreach.org).

These cases are interesting, I think, because they tend to bear out what I suspect: in most cases, former Adventists end up thriving when they integrate with other Christians instead of staying clustered together in congregations composed mostly of themselves.

Yes, "Just praying" IS hard work. It's also the work to which all Christians are called. We're to give thanks, intercede, and pray without ceasing. Praise God for his sovereignty and for teaching us to trust him step-by-step. We can almost never figure out in advance the details of His specific plans for us, but he gives us work to do that figures in that plan. I love what one of my fellow Monday night women's Bible study leaders says: "We live for the dot of our lifetimes instead of living for the line of eternity." The dot of our lives, though, helps compose that eternal line, and nothing God ordains is wasted.

So we continue to pray...

Colleen
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 266
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, don't you get it?!? If what you say is true, it absolutely proves that Mrs. White is a true prophet, more than a prophet, THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY!!! Why she totally predicted this 100 years ago. This is the great shaking we're experiencing. Some of the greatest lights in THE CHURCH are going out just like she said they would. How could she predcit this so acurately and not be a true prophet. It's time for us all to stop doubting, accept her word, and get back in the fold before it's too late.

:-) :-) :-)

Obviously the above was very tongue and cheek, but don't you think her "prediction" was a stroke of genius? I really mean it. If you're a false prophet who has an occasional seizure, but otherwise spends a lot of time copying material from others, ya gotta know that sooner or later some people are going to figure it out. In fact, you know of a few who already have. So you innoculate yourself from the charges. That way if anyone discovers that you're fradulent and leaves you can just say that it's all part of a great shaking that Satan is causing. And since you predicted it you must be a true prophet when it happens. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Basically you spend your whole life being a scam artist then you make the amazing prediction that someday people will claim you are a scam artist so that's the very reason to believe you aren't. Wow, that's a pretty good racket.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So true, Chris! Besides, EGW's hansome young man who attended her dreams of later years convinces me that she undoubtedly had some help from the "other side" during her dreams/visions as well. I'm sure Satan also knew (not being bound to three dimensions are we are!) what sorts of deceptions he would try to pull off as time passed. What better than to predict exactly what's happening, except in the reverse, thus making those searching for truth feel crazy?!

Colleen
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 267
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree Colleen. This will sound strange, but when I see references to the being that stood beside her writing chair and attended her, I get a very dark mental image. I can't quite explain it, but there's such a ring of truth about it that I can't help feeling like this was something she was accurately reporting. Why do I believe this particular thing, but little else of what whe wrote? Again, I can't explain it and would probably sound nutty if I tried, but suffice it to say, I feel pretty conviced that she really did have a frequent visitor and it was a very dark visitor indeed. Call it spiritual intuition.......

Chris
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 265
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember reading the story of one of those who used to be in her inner circle until he did something..can't remember his name, but she suddenly had a "testimony" about his secret sin of whatever. Furthermore, if he failed to confess it it proved he was in partnership with Satan. (seems Satan was very active in their day) He swore it was false, but couldn't figure out how to resolve the whole thing and basically said that there was no good alternative. If he lied and asked for forgiveness to this "secret" sin, he couldn't live with himself or people thinking it. But if he denied it, people would think he was a partner of Satans. She covered her bases both ways. I don't remember who or the details of the story, but I was quite fascinated by the craftiness with which she protected both ways. It reminds me of a show I saw on public tv years ago where some guy was teaching people how to put on crusades and reap the most cash in the offerings. They "talked God", but they were con-artists setting people up to give money. They had plants in the audiences to be healed and all sorts of other junk for those who wanted signs. It made me physically ill that people would do such things... Yet, if EGW were alive today, I see her fitting in with that crowd. Do you all think she was a sincere Christian with serious character flaws or a complete fraud (since I suspect you've had a more balanced presentation of her good and bad points)?
Dane
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Username: Dane

Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greetings
I'm a new forum member and this is my first posting. I hope it does not matter which thread I'm on. My wife and I left SDA in 1982 and have a very interesting and fulfilling life since. I'm in the process of writing our story for the forum. Look for it soon. My main purpose for joining is that I may be able to provide support and encouragement to those have recently left Adventism and to share experiences and ideas. I pray daily that my life will serve as a witness to the grace of Christ. Looking forward to chatting.
Your brother,
Dane
Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Brother Dane,

Welcome to the forum. You can post wherever you want. After a while, you'll get the flow of some of the threads. The conversations stay close to the topic, however, we do meander quite a lot. Sometimes we get back to the title of the thread, sometimes we don't.

Praise the Lord you've left so long ago. I'm looking forward to your conversations.

Steve

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