| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
I still have parents, aunt, uncles, cousins and friends who remain true to the Adventist message. My question is this: When it comes to issues of jewelry, eating,drinking must I continue to abstain because they feel it is necessary? For instance, I wear necklaces and bracelets but I never wear them when I know I will be around an Adventist. But, I'd really like to get my ears pierced. The problem is I wouldn't be able to just remove them when I'm going to be around Adventists (not for a while anyway). Would I be "in sin" for getting my ears pierced because I know people who will think it's a sin? Another example, I don't eat things that Adventist consider to be un-clean when I'm around them. But I do eat pork, shrimp, when we aren't around them. Last night, my parents went to dinner with us at a Mexican restaurant. My youngest began to alternately dip the chips into the cheese dip and in the salsa. When dipping in the cheese he would say "Cheese Pizza" and when he dipped into the Salsa the "sinful words" of "Pepperoni Pizza" blurted out! My Mother immediately looked at me and said, "What does he know about Pepperoni Pizza?" ---I was speechless. I shrugged my shoulders and thankfully something happened that changed the subject. Of course, my mind was thinking, "well, he know that's what he likes the best and that's what he eats every Thursday at school and there's nothing unclean about it but I can't say that to you". So, even though at the time we were not eating the "unclean meat" in front of them--they were sensitive because it was mentioned. I can't control the words that come out of my 7 yr. olds mouth when I have taught him that eating these foods is o.k. The question is must I continue to conform to what they believe just because they believe it or can I enjoy "my freedoms" since I know that the things they abstain from are not sin? Or must I always abstain from these things so I don't ruffle their feathers? | ||
| Carol_2 |
hi lori! i'm definitely not one of the spiritual experts on this forum, but isn't the Bible referring more to non-Christians, the unsaved (or rather those weak in their faith?), when it talks about not leading others astray or discouraging them by doing something questionable. plus, i think it's very clear that if you are CONFIDENT it is not sin, go ahead and do it! i know exactly what you're talking about though. for years i let my daughter eat pepperoni pizza (of course it's her favorite) and sausage and bacon, etc., but if my mom was around i'd not make it or serve it or order it, etc. when my daughter was younger i'd always be terrified she'd ask for something pork. then as she got older i started telling her not to eat it or ask for it in front of my mom "out of respect." i have since decided i was sending very mixed, unhealthy messages to my daughter, and now we don't worry about it. in fact, at thanksgiving we had all non-sda family except my mom here, and we had a turkey and a HAM! i also used to take off my jewelry around my mom. (in fact all this was when i was just out of the church and had no relationship with God, not since my leaving the sda denomination, isn't that sad, no relationship with God at all, but still worrying about following the "rules.") my personal advice is: tell your family you have no doubts whatsoever that what you're doing is ok, then go ahead and get those ears pierced! love, prayers, and best wishes to you, carol | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
My two cents worth is that Paul in Romans is not talking about immediate family. He's talking about new believers, and what to do if you're in a culture that believes differently than you. I wouldn't take a ham to an SDA potluck as it would be an insult. When I'm around a bunch of SDA's and their food, I just eat what they are eating and don't complain. However, your situation is that your kids are mentioning things that make other SDA adults squirm. I'd say that's something you can't do anything about. Let the family know that you disagree with their dietary restrictions and taht you don't personally follow them. But, be gracious enough when out with them not to eat something offensive. That's my take on it..... BTW---I hope the formers are still meeting at Trinity EV Free. I'm moving back to the Redlands area this summer, so you'll have another member meeting with you! | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Here for two days I've been coming to my usuall faf forum, only to read 'zero' messages.  sheesh, where have I been? anyhow, addressing this food topic. I have a very good friend who is sda and she is vergatarian and even mentioning ham is like the ultimate sin to her. When I go visit though, she is so gracious that she always has a can of beef stew or something of that nature for me to eat. Now that to me is growth on her part! However, I don't bring what she would consider unclean into her home with an exception of my coffee and cigs. And then I smoke outdoors out of respect. If I go to church with her as she is 86 years of age and my fear in letting her drive herself without me there to quickly turn the steering wheel or slam on her brakes..anyhow I do go to church with her on very seldom occasions. Of course there are those go old potlucks afterwards and the quests (that's me) are invited. My friend is truly hoping that I will come to the truth so she urges me to the potlucks. I eat the dessert first because all that tomatoe suace in the food just kills my stomach. But I will have some just to appease her. We kind of got this understanding between us, one of mutual respect. So with her things are good. However, there are those of weak faith that at first finding my freedom, I flaunted my freedom in their faces and this wasn't a good thing on my part, as I well know now. It has taken 3 years for my 86 year old friend and I to come to the understaning that we have and I thank God that we have come this far. This probably didn't help much but it was something I hope. Time is the key I think...everything takes time sometimes. Especially matters of the conscience. God bless this site! We are back in the ballgame folks! Praise the Lord! your sister in Jesus Christ, DtB (it's after 4am so if this is scrambled I will use that as a good excuse) | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lori, I also believe that the texts referring to not offending weaker brothers is not referring to keeping people happy with us so they won't be offended by our changes. (That was an awkward sentence!) Here are a couple of things I've considered: First, the text refers to the problem of offending the weaker brother. A brother is a believer in Jesus. I've had to seriously ask myself if my argumentative, rigid, angry relatives are truly believers? I have had to ask whether or not my getting my ears pierced or serving turkey at holidays is really a stumbling block to people who are born again and searching for truth. The answer to those questions has been that my pierced ears and turkey make no difference, one way or another, to my relative's understanding of scripture or to their relationship with Jesus. They are not led either farther away or closer to Jesus by those things because their beliefs and loyalties are not influenced by my ears or food. They cling to their beliefs for their personal reasons. My behavior or conversations have not made even a tiny change in their willingness to read scripture or to ask questions. At this time, I've had to conclude that many of my Adventist relatives are not truly "brothers" in the spiritual sense. Second, their disapproval with my pierced ears and their intense but non-verbal anger at the food I might serve is more of a manipulation than of a sincere spiritual stumbling block. Their disapproval stems from a deep identification with their traditions, not from a deep hunger for truth. This fact became quite clear to me one evening at our women's Bible study leaders' meeting at church. This subject of not offending the weaker brother came up, and I mentioned my problem with serving meat in front of my disapproving relatives. One woman said, "Why don't you just not serve what they don't like when they're present?" I viscerally reacted but said nothing, knowing that my not serving the turkey would not help my family to understand or desire to understand my relationship with Jesus. Elizabeth Inrig, our pastor's wife/women's ministry leader, spoke up immediately (she knows the situation) and said, "No, in this case, Colleen, your serving meat is your assertion of your authority in your own home. Sometimes we have to tell other people, 'This is what we do in our home. We will provide what you need and want, but we will also do what we do.' " I realized that she had stated the problem succinctly. Some of our freedom in Christ that we discover when we leave Adventism has nothing to do with spiritual issues. When Paul wrote about not offending the weaker brothers, he was talking about not serving or eating meat offered to idols. He himself could eat such meat with a clear conscience, but the Corinthians, who had come out of paganism, would have a flood of memories and automatic associations and spiritual responses if they ate meat offered to idols. For them, eating such meat brought back memories and responses from their temple ceremonies and feasts and orgies. For them, eating such meat was a sub-conscious compromise, an enticement to experience again the pagan practices thy had left behind. Our piercing our ears or eating/serving pepperoni or turkey is not a temptation for our Adventist families to return to paganism. On the contrary, we are expressing freedom in Christ that does not contain demonic overtones from their (or our!) past. I really agree with what was said above; we must be consistent with our children, and if they can eat pepperoni when they're at school or with us, they should not have to hide that fact in front of their Adventists relatives. That hiding is a form of deception. That, in my opinion, is a spiritual compromise that tempts us back to the darkness we left. That hiding puts us on shaky ground, not the serving of meat or the piercing of ears. Does this make sense? Praising God for freedom in him, Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Lori, I understand your reluctance to openly live out your beliefs with your mother. Before I started studying my Bible and understanding the "true" gospel, I would hide the pork or throw it out before my mother came for a visit. I wasn't in church and I didn't personally feel it was wrong, but then again, I didn't have any true religious convictions about anything, so I figured she was probably right and I was "lost". After deciding for myself, as an adult, what I believe in and what my convictions are, I feel that I have confidence in my beliefs through my own convictions and understanding of the gospel, in other words, I feel like I am right, so I don't feel it is necessary to hide anything. It may cause some discussion or reaction at first if you get your ears pierced, but hey, they'll get over it. I feel you do need to stand up for what you believe and proclaim it with confidence. No matter what they say, they don't possess that confidence and it startles them and is a very effective witness. When I share some of the awesome things God is doing in my life, I get the open mouth look from the Adventists. I know they think, "How can God be doing all of that with someone who has left the truth?" Stand up for your freedom in Christ. All you can do is make it clear that your decisions aren't to refute their beliefs, they are your own and are very valid! Let them know that you don't want your relationship with the Lord worry or upset them in anyway, but that you want them to rejoice in your journey. ;) Sabra | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Excellent comments! The one thing I would add is that whatever you are doing, do it because you naturally want to do it and not because you are setting out to make a statement. No doubt many of you have run into folks who will do something to intentionally be rude, to get in your face. The only example I can come up with offhand would be the SDA who serves a vegetarian dish while making a BIG deal verbally about how awful meat eating is. You know the scene! Serve what you want to serve, order what you want to order, and then when they question it, you answer them simply and be straightforward. As has been said, to hide what you customarily do at home would be hypocrytical, and come on, this is family you are talking about, it IS going to come out eventually that you eat the stuff As for the earings and jewelry...it's YOUR body, not theirs! Speaking of which, have any of you ladies ever heard of someone with a rather active immune system reacting badly to having her ears pierced? I've wanted to do it, but have hesitated because of an insinutation that my immune system is a bit too active (i.e. that this was why my body rejects contact lenses and I've had two premature births). Haven't had trouble with other jewelry so far, and don't want to trigger a problem. Any thoughts? Can't remember if we have discusses this here or not. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
I think the main thing is still the main thing - whether what I do is for love or fear. If you personally believe that some things may pose a stumbling block to the gospel, and you chose not to participate in certain activities for the benefit of others, is it done from love in your heart? If you chose to participate in certain things in front of others that they may find offensive, is it done out of an honest love for their heart to be touched with the knowledge of Jesus Christ? Either way it could be a "yes" or a "no". The question is always about our heart in the matter. At least that's what I think. In an article about Lent I was reading, the author expressed that truly the best thing to give to Christ during this season is not giving up meat, chocolate, or whatever someone might chose for the season, but to truly live out Christ's words to love our brothers and our sisters and to love our enemies. Lydell, I have heard of people having problems getting their ears pierced because of their body's reaction. I'd probably be careful, ask your doctor, and do some more sluething about it. Blessings, Sherry | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Something else, Lori. With my hubby, at the beginning I was careful, but then started to live out freedom in Christ a little at a time. But mainly I let it always be an opportunity to study the Word...like "well yes, I did go and cut my hair today. I respect that this is Sabbath for you. But if you'd every like to study out why I no longer feel bound with the same rules about Sabbath-keeping, I'd be happy to study it with you." And that's often what I've done. It's a thought.  | ||
| In_His_Service (In_His_Service) |
Sherry2, I believe you have struck on the very teaching of Paul. He reveled in his Christian freedom, yet admitted that he was as a Jew to the Jews and as a Greek to the Greek, that he might save some for Jesus; How we live is not a matter of how we "feel", but a matter of how we BEST can lead all to a personal relationship with our best friend and savior, Jesus Christ. With SDA's and their "we are the only way" theology, this is never easy. I have always made Paul's writings the center work of my reading and study, for a number of reasons. This is just one of the many areas that he speaks directly to. May the Spirit lead us to do His will, not as we think it is, or have been taught it is, or even want it to be.....but AS IT REALLY IS! Soli Deo gloria Thomas <>< | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Amen to this statement: "May the Spirit lead us to do His will, not as we think it is, or have been taught it is, or even want it to be.....but AS IT REALLY IS!" Thank you Thomas. And you are right on the nose about the 'feelings' as well. Grace and Peace to you always. your sister in Him, DtB | ||
| Trippllb (Trippllb) |
Lydell, I can speak to you firsthand about having a bad reaction to having your ears pierced. My skin has always been sensitive. I pierced my ears when I was about 17, now I have a hyper sensitivity to metals. For instance, I can't wear ear rings, the rivets they put on blue jeans leave a red mark on me at the end of the day, I used to work in a bakery and if I leaned against the metal cabinets for too long my arms would break out. Up until I had my ears pierced, no problems. My doctor said that when the metal was introduced into my blood stream I seemed to have a strong immune reaction to it. I don't know if there is any correlation, but my regular allergies seemed to get worse after that too, but they say you can develop allergies as you get older anyway. Who knows. My dad uses this story with his students each year in bible class to prove his point about jewelry and rebellion. UGH, I hate giving him a good example against jewelry. Anyway, my 2 cents. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Trippllb, Have you found a job yet? I've been praying about you and your employment and wondering how you are doing. It's good to hear from you! Colleen | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Trippllb, thanks for the story! It was just a thought that came to me one day out of the blue and made me put the brakes on the idea real quick. Figured perhaps the Lord was trying to warn me about a problem. Sorry to hear your dad decided this was his "proof". Yuck. I always have had to wonder just what the SDA's saw in the scripture "as a bride adorns herself for her husband". What do they think this is referring too...she takes a bath and nothing more?? Curious. | ||
| Trippllb (Trippllb) |
Lydell, Glad I could help. I wish I would have had that thought before I got my ears pierced. However, there is a silver lining in all of this. I do not appear to be allergic to gold with the exception of my ears. However, the cheap stuff breaks me out everywhere. The obvious correlation is that my husband can't pull of anything but the good stuff when he buys me jewelry. :-) Colleen, Thanks for remembering. I lurk here at least once a week reading what I've missed, but rarely post. An update on the job situation is keep praying. I haven't found anything yet. However, the Lord is working mightily in my life right now. If I had to choose a time to be unemployed, right now would definately be it, because I'm busier right now than I was when I was working full time and driving 4 hours a day. My husband owns a small but growing computer firm here in town. I used to have to drive 4 hours a day at my previous job, but had managed to transition my previous job to telecommuting 5 days a week so I hadn't done the drive in almost 6 months. My wish is that I can work locally, and have put that prayer before the Lord. However, he knows that I will go where ever he wants me to be. I began praying close to a year ago that he would put me exactly where he wanted me and where I could best glorify him. The way I figure, he may have to clear the road and rearrange the furniture a bit to get me there. Right now I feel that he's cleared the road, thus the unemployed status, and he's rearranging the furniture now. To make a long story short (I know me, that statement is a blatant lie, brevity is not my strong suit!), it almost seemed that the day I lost my job, things started happening at my husbands company and his growth has skyrocketed. Within a week, we were approached with an offer from his only real competition to buy them out as 9/11 really hurt the retail side of their business. We're primarily a service shop with little empasis on retail so our business flourished. We were able to structure a deal to purchase their inventory without purchasing their warranty work or debt. Now understand, we live month to month and hand to mouth like a lot of Americans, so the money we were looking at to do this deal had to come from God and him alone, because we just didn't have it. Still don't! Well, the owner of the other company is a Christian and wanted to make sure that it went someplace local where his customers would be cared for. He knows we run our shop honestly and with integrity. I honestly think the Lord impressed his heart and instead of asking what his inventory was worth, he gave it to us at far less than half of his wholesale cost. Additionally, he made arrangements for us to be able to pay it off over the course of 4 months instead of in one lump sum. When I think about that whole deal, we litterally had to structure the deal, procure additional space, move his shop, and rearrange our shop within 3 days. On the home front, the bills are all behind, things are really tight and we're not sure where the money is going to come from the cover things since my job paid everything on the home front. But on the business front, it's booming. God is our FedEx right now, becuase literally, it's just in time financing. When we need it, we get it. If I looked at all of the money that's going in and out of that place, and actually focused on the balance sheets, I'd be going insane right now, but I'm so calm in this storm because I know he's got it covered. I know that in 4 months, I'll be where he wants me, each payment will have been made, and we'll still have the house. Ask me how right now and I haven't a clue, I just know it's covered. All I know is I've made a promise to him that I'll be dilligent, work as hard as I can, and be open to be where ever HE wants me to be. The neatest thing in all this is my husband. He's just baffled by everything going on around him. He has general anxiety disorder, which in a nut shell equiates to obsessive worry. We don't talk too much about religion. I share new things I find and he sees my enthusiasm for Christ, but I don't push. The best way for him to find Christ is for me to simply be a good example of what he can do in an individuals life. I quit smoking with Gods help and 6 months later after watching me do it successfully, he quit, so I know he's watching. Well, just the other day he was really worrying about everything and asked me how I was staying so calm in all of this. He told me 'I see miracles happening all around me'. Then he asked 'how am I NOT supposed to worry about all of this'. I saw it as a door open to share. So I asked if he really wanted me to tell him how I was staying so calm. I started explaining what Christ said about worry, told him that by worrying you take Gods responsibility on your own sholdiers. I know that he believes in Jesus so I told him that believing in him didn't just mean believing the easy stuff like salvation while ignoring the tough stuff like trusting him to care for your every need. That it's easy to say you believe, but it's so tough to trust. I don't know if it sunk in, but it's not up to me to make it sink in. Just to pray that the holy spirit will take whichever words make the most sense and drive them home on HIS timeline, not mine. I truly believe that he is being shaped and molded as much as I am in this. So yes, to make my long story....ok, long, I still need your prayers. Things are so crazy right now. I don't have a paycheck, the mortgage is behind, the car payment is behind, the [insert every bill name here] is behind, my company lost my severence check, unemployment thinks I have a severence check so I'm not getting unemployment yet, my husband is worried to death, things are going crazy at the shop and I've just got a tiger by the tail, but I'm praying every day, on fire to get up in the morning and read what he has next in his word, leaving my burdens in his hands every day, and excited to see where this ride ends and what he has in store for me. Thanks for your prayers. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Thanks so much for sharing Trippblb! It's so encouraging always to see how God works in our lives. Praise the Lord for the progress in your husband, and your obedience and love to your Father! That is so cool, really!! Thanks for sharing, and prayers ofcourse. In Jesus, Sherry | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Lydell, You asked about the bride adorning herself. How 'bout Genesis 24 where Abraham's servant took gold and silver and jewels to Rebekah and her mother as gifts for her to be Isaac's husband? They even wore nose rings! I think if you want to get your ears pierced you should go ahead! If you have a reaction, just take them back out, they'll heal up in a couple of days. I'm sensitive to everything but I could wear dirty fish hooks in my ears with no problem. Worse-case scenario, you'd have to take them out. Trippblb, God bless, I'll keep you in prayer! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Tripplbb, Thanks for sharing your story! I will continue to keep you and your husband in prayer. Your camlness is a gift from Him. Absolutely you can be confident! What an amazing story. I'm certain that these tumultuous events in your life are partly about your husband being able to watch God at work. He is so good! Lydell, I honestly don't know about ear piercing and immune reactions. Have you asked your doctor for any annecdotal evidence from his/her practice or that of others? Have you had problems with tooth fillings or gold dental work? If not, I would be tempted to think earrings might not be any more dangerous. Gold is quite hypoallergenic. As Tripplbb said above, if you MUST wear gold to avoid a reaction, you'll have to resign yourself to getting only good quality stuff! I think I have enjoyed pierced ears more than any other single physical "permission" I've enjoyed since being born again. Yes, it's wonderful to be able to eat ham or other forbidden foods without a prick of conscience, but the pierced ears are just plain fun! Praise God for freedom in Christ! Colleen | ||
| Snowdove (Snowdove) |
Lydell May I make a suggestion about getting your ears pierced. I would suggest you find someone who will put small hoop earings in when they are pierced. For from my experience it is a safe way to go. I had my ears pierced twice in my life and both times I had a wierd reaction where my earlobes swelled up and the studs went in to the middle of the lobe and I had to have them surgicaly removed. If I had had hoops then I could of removed the earings myself. Also use High quality of Gold right off the bat for the cheap stuff might cause a bad reaction. I hope this helps Your's in Christ Snow Dove | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
hi guys! good to hear from you tripplbb, i think of you often and wonder how you are. you originally surfaced around the time i did on this forum, and were going through many of the same things i was at the same time. wonderful to hear how you are trusting in God, and how He is working in your lives - isn't it exciting, but at times scary, how the most traumatic and stressful times in our lives can also bring us so close to Him - i always look back on going through a divorce (if you can believe that!) as the time in my life i was closest to Him, and although it was the most painful, saddest time in my entire life, i also had the closest, most intimate walk with Him at that time, never before or since have i felt His presence, His arms tight around me, as i did then. Lydell, i agree with sabra, go ahead & try piercing your ears, you'll know quickly if it's going to be a problem and can take them out. they are fun, and like colleen, i think that's been one of the things i've enjoyed most. i even have two holes in each ear (don't worry, i'm going no further with it than that!) love and prayers to all, carol (frmerly Sammi) |
