| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2002 |
I posted the following message on CARM for discussion. Thought it might spark a little something here too. ------------------------------------------------ I've gotten myself into a discussion at work with an Adventist who has been trying to convince me of my obligation to obey the Law. The questions I posed to him I feel would be good for discussion here. I asked my friend the following questions: - If I have an obligation to the Law, how much of it must I keep? - How well must I keep the Law? To both questions we found ourselves agreed on the following verse: James 2:10 And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God's laws. This verse in essence saying that (1) the entire Law must be kept if kept at all, and (2) the Law in its entirety must be kept perfectly, that is, without fault or failure. In my discussion with him and in other discussions with Seventh-day Adventists, I have never had anyone contest this verse. However, I would also have to include this passage from Paul in the mix as well. Galatians 3:10-12 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all these commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Consequently, it is clear that no one can ever be right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life." How different from this way of faith is the way of law, which says, "If you wish to find life by obeying the law, you must obey all of its commands." Taking James and Galatians together, the question arises (and hopefully discussion in this thread): What happens when we sin? My friend gave me two different responses which echo much of what I have heard from other Adventists in speech and written word: - When a person is saved, the Holy Spirit lives inside the person actively keeping the Law. Perfect Law-keeping becomes automatic. However, this is dependent upon the person willingly allowing the Holy Spirit to work inside them. So long as the person allows the Spirit to work, he will keep the Law perfectly. Once he yields to his own desires, he will begin sinning. - A man is obligated to 100% perfect Law-keeping. However, when he sins, he is to ask God for forgiveness and for restoration of fellowship. Upon receiving that forgiveness, he is obligated again to 100% Law-keeping. If the man sins again, the process is repeated. I asked my friend the following question: If I sin, ask and receive forgiveness, would I still not be in violation of the Law, because I did not keep it perfectly? I received no response. The subject was quickly changed. My discourse with my friend got me thinking of a few questions I would like to pose to the forum: - If we are obligated to 100% of the Law, what happens when we sin? - If we must ask God for forgiveness of our sins, what assurance do we have that we have received forgiveness? - At what point in a man's life is he obligated to 100% Law-keeping? - How many sins did Jesus pay for at the Cross? - How many sins were forgiven at the Cross? - How many sins do we need to ask forgiveness for? Straightforward answers are greatly appreciated. --------------------------------------------- Just a little food for thought on the whole asking God for forgiveness... If we have to ask God for forgiveness, doesn't God in all His supreme soverignty have the right to say no? | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 235 Registered: 7-2000 |
Joel, We are not under law, we are under grace. Galatians, chap. 2 and 3 makes clear that the law (the whole Torah including the Ten Commandments) came in at Sinai and was fulfilled in Christ--thus coming to an end. Where does that leave us now as to a 'law'? Paul, in Romans, makes clear that there is a general revelation of sin vis a vis our conscience. God has given this to everyone, and so everyone is without excuse for knowing what is right and wrong. This is what is a 'guide' for most folks today. As Christians, we have a 'special' revelation of Gods' will through the Holy Spirit which now directs our life. The 'law' of the Old Covenant is gone, it is not a tutor nor a guide for New Testament christians. In fact, Paul in Romans says that trying to mix the law and faith is spiritual adultery (I think it's Romans chap.7). He repeats this assertion that law and faith don't mix in Galatians chap. 2. The law had to be done away with, because until that happened, faith was not available to save us! (Galatians 3). Why are we obligated to keep the law? Paul makes clear that if law keeping accomplished anything--he had it! He had the righteousness that comes from keeping the law---and it was worthless! Do we need it for right standing before God? No! That's what Calvary was for! Do we need the law to see if we are safe to save? No! Christs' sacrifice is all that is needed for us to be adopted as sons and daughters (and therefore heirs) of God. How many sins do we need to ask forgiveness for? My answer is for the ones that we have knowingly done. You won't find taught in the Bible that Christs' sacrifice is limited to 'cleansing' us from only certain sins. It cleans us completely! Can God say 'nope, I won't forgive you?'. Sure, He is God, after all. But, we have been assured that He is a high priest who knows what life on earth is like and that He is not going to turn us away. The apostle John says that Christ will always be our mediator so that when we sin, we have a way of being made right again with God. That mediator is Jesus! Be careful, Joel, as to trying to respond exactly to specific questions. Questions can be phrased in such a way that it is impossible to answer them as demanded---even though the answer is out there. An example is 'show me the text that says the Sabbath was abolished'. There are texts that say as much, but that won't ever be good enough to answer that challenge. I hope this helps.......... Bill | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2001 |
Joel, That approach is useless with an SDA because they will just tell you if you love God you will try to keep the law. Then where are you? You can say the truth, that it doesn't depend on anything that we do, but then God created us for good works so....... I have found that the biggest surprise to Adventists is that most christians don't keep Sunday. They refer to anyone non Sabbath keeping as Sunday keeping. They are taken aback when you tell them you don't consider Sunday any holier than Tuesday. They are so caught up in anticipating a Sunday law that they don't get it when you tell them basically, no one cares if anyone keeps Sunday holy. Then you show them Hebrews 4 where it says that there remains a rest for the people of God..."Today". It's a non-ending rest that doesn't have a time restraint. Time is created by God. Rest for the soul is eternal. If they don't want to hear truth, they never will no matter what you say to them, don't stress over it too much. Just let him know that you esteem everyday alike and if he esteems one day over the other, then his own master will make him stand or fall, depending on who he/He is. Rom. 14 is so clear, isn't it? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joel, the law no longer is something we have to consider. When we are in Christ, the law has no behavioral or moral authority over us. Romans 7 makes it clear that we still sin, even as Christ-followers. Our sin, though, is not breaking the law; it's refusing to submit to the Holy Spirit. Paul ends Romans 6 by saying we need to learn to live by the Spirit. Romans 8 transitions from Romans 7 by saying, "Therefore," and explaining life in the Spirit. We do need to ask God to forgive us when we fail to live by the Spirit and live by our natural natures instead. But because we are in Christ, our repentance is more an act of faithfulness to our relationship than it is our begging to be restored to perfection. Christ's righteousness covers us all the time, even when we respond to the sinful nature. If we respond to the sinful nature more and more habitually, though, we will fail to grow in Jesus. We'll be like the Corinthians when Paul addresses them in 1 Cor. 3:1-3 as "brothers" who are "wordly" instead of "spiritual". Also, Jesus' parable of the seeds indicates that it's possible for people to have a burst of life in response to the gospel yet fail to put down roots. If a person is in Christ, however, he can expect that Jesus will not let him sin successfully without being convicted that he needs to repent and let the Holy Spirit deal with that spot in his life where that sin originated. Our 100% perfection is Jesus' perfection. I remember reading a book (I think it was "Teaching Christ in the Modern World") by Scottish theologian Thomas Torrence in which he said not only Christ's death but also his life redeemed us. He lived the perfect life we couldn't, and that perfection is now considered ours when we accept the gift of His blood over us. Praise God for completely redeeming us from the law! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think there may have been a misunderstanding. I am certainly not questioning the Law or its purpose or any of that. I simply copied a post I sent on CARM asking straightforward questions to Adventists. I thought it to be an opportunity for us to rejoice in what God has done for us! | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2004 |
I got last week very clear answers from SDAs and one sentence was quite offensive, I think. One guy said (when I emphasized Christ and only Christ) that: "If people see Christ just only on the cross itĄs difficult to see Christ at all." (Hope you understood that.) I didnĄt write only of the sacrification of Christ, just mentioned it, but I praised maybe too much Christ and this fellow thought it was too much. Tuija | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 279 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joel, I understand that you are not trying to suggest that Christians are under law, however I think that the use of James 2:10 outside of it's context could cause confusion and plays into SDA arguments. Keep in mind that James, as the head of the Jerusalem Church, is probably primarily writing to Jewish Christians. The context of the whole book is what it means to live by the "Law of Liberty" (James 2:12). James is arguing that you aren't truly living by this law of love if it doesn't manifest itself in the way you treat and care for others of all socio-economic levels. To illustrate his point James quotes a well known rabinical saying that references the Mosaic law, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." James 2:10. His Jewish readers would have been very familiar with this saying. James is not suggesting that Christians are under the Mosaic Law or that perfection is required for salvation, but he does brilliantly illustrate how Christians that now live under the "law of liberty" are still called upon to live out all of the commands Jesus gave to Christians. What I am trying to say, is that it is a bit dangerous to pull a rabinical quote that was used for illustration out of it's quoted context and then ask how it may or may not apply to Christians. The simple answer is, it does not, it is only used to illustrate the fact that Christians are called to be totally committed to the law of love in the same way Jews were called to be totally committed to every aspect of the Mosaic law. Any other application would put this verse at odds with the rest of the NT. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Chris. James began to make sense to me when I learned that his was the first book written in the NT (some indications say before AD 50), and it was probably written to the scattered Jewish believers who had been among the first converts in Jerusalem (perhaps including those who had been present in Jerusalem for Pentecost who had arrived Jews but returned home Christ-followers) but had been scattered after Stephen's death. They were isolated and had no apostles to mentor them in their new locations. Their only scriptures were the OT in which they were well-versed. James' letter came to encourage them in the often hostile conditions in which they lived. This was perhaps the first written instruction reminding these Jews who had found the Messiah how to live as Christ-followers. He had only the law and the prophets as Scriputral references, and he used them to support the new reality in which they found themselves: no longer under the law, but required to surrender to the "royal law" of Christ. I really like James 2:12 where he says, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment." The "law that brings freedom" is not the Torah; it (including the 10 Commandments) brought death. The law that brings freedom is the royal law, "Love your neighbor as yourself" (v. 8), as Jesus made clear in his Sermon on the Mount. It is the law that can only be kept through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the law that comes to life within the new covenant. James is reminding these scattered Jewish believers that although they are not under the law because Jesus had fulfilled it, still they are expected to live as children of God, honoring and surrendering to Him and serving one another. Colleen |
