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Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 192
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just have to share a thought that came to me during our Friday night Bible study two nights ago. We're in Romans 7, and we were doing an inductive study on how sin and the law were related that we had to die to both of them.

We were discussing the fact that the Holy Spirit is the one that makes us spiritually aware enough even to see the law as convicting us of sin. In other words, people who have no response to the call of God on them do not feel guilty of breaking the law. (see Romans 1 through 3) They may KNOW they're doing unlawful things, but they feel no desire to repent or to submit to a Savior.

As we were studying and talking, I suddenly realized why God gave the law to Israel and to no other people: God literally place his Presence in the center of Israel and dwelled among them. (He did not indwell them because the Cross had not yet happened, but He did place his presence among them.) It is only when one has a revelation of God that the law makes sense as a shadow of the Redeemer.

If God had not revealed himself to Abraham and subsequently to Israel, the law would have had no meaning. Its functions of convicting of sin and of serving as a tutor to lead them to Christ would have been undiscerned. Only when a person's heart is awakened by God does the law have the effect of pointing one to Christ.

The reason the law was not part of the message to the Gentiles was that Jesus was now revealed. The shadow was unnecessary. Jesus himself would call and convict sinners of their sins. The apostles had to preach Christ crucified and risen; the Holy Spirit would do the rest. The law would have been pointless.

This realization clarified to me how twisted and even heretical it is that Adventism (and others as well) try to resurrect the law and teach it along with Jesus. The law truly is ONLY for Israel and ONLY for the time between Moses and the Jesus. That was the only time spand when God began to personally reveal himself to sinful humanity, and he chose the Jews to be the people among whom he would reveal himself and his will and his promise of salvation. The law was part of that promise. The law would have been pointless for other people who did not have a personal revelation of God.

I'm not sure I've made complete sense here--but it seemed quite significant to me. The impersonal law only had a function in the context of God's revelation of himself and his plans, and it has not function outside that narrow margin of history that began 430 years after Abraham and ended at Calvary.

I understood the pointlessness of the law post-cross, but I had never thought before about the necessity of God's revelation making the law useful.

Praise God!

Colleen
Terryk
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Username: Terryk

Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 5:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Colleen that makes alot of sense to me. I always appreciate your studies and sharing them with me. Thank you so much and may God continue to wrok through you and thank you for helping those of us who have left the SDA church to support us. I praise God for finding all of you. God Bless
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 292
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 6:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Outstanding insights Colleen. Thank you for sharing. It's pretty exciting when the Holy Spririt all of a sudden illumines a truth for you.

Chris
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 290
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Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a former SDA ask me a couple of years ago why God bothered with the law at all rather than sending Christ immediately. I didn't have a real good answer... any thoughts on that question? And what do you do when people recite the verse that says the law is good and holy as a means to say we are to live by it?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 193
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that Christ coming without the preparatory period of Israel would have been pointless. Humanity as a whole was given over to their own desires, and they would have completely missed Jesus.

Israel functioned as a beacon to the pagan world; here was a nation whose God fought and won their battles (and those ancient societies took their deities to war with them, believing that those that won the wars had the most powerful god) by such means as sending the choir at the head of the army, confusing the enemy with 300 men and torches in camp so they killed each other, having the morning sun make the water red so the enemy thought Israel was attacking and they killede themselves in a confusion of fright, etc.

Pagan nations were brought to a respect for Yaweh during the time of the judges. Israel conquered Canaan by God's miracles, not by their military prowess.

Meanwhile, God began revealing himself and his promises of a Savior to the nation of Israel. They had the true oracles of the One True God, including his presence, his blessings, his holy rules, his ceremonies--all of which dealt with their sins in a way that did not cause the Israelites to have to work harder and sacrifice their children and sell themselves to temple prostitution as their neighbors did.

Further, they had Sabbath, a day which promised them eternal rest from their work.

I believe that if Jesus had come without the law, no one would have recognized him (well, FEW would have, anyway!). It took the promises, the prophets, the nation of Israel, God tabernacling his presence among the people, the law drawing God's people to see their abysmal hopelessness--it took all this to prepare the world to respond to a true Messiah. Without the law and the prophets, for example, how would have those kings from the east (who undoubtedly had read the works of their own political great, Daniel, and the writings of the prophets he had taken to Babylon with him), have known a king was coming?

Yes, the law is good and holy. But it is impersonal. It has absolutely no effect on our ability to change our behavior. It is and always has been God who has done that. The law just began to point out to a nearly completely godless world how one who honored God would live. But never, according to Romans and Galatians, was the law supposed to be the means of that behavior. Quite the opposite; in Romans 6 it's so clear that the law actually caused sin to INCREASE because people began to think about the things they weren't supposed to do. (It's sort of like seeing a sign that says, "Don't spit on sidewalk." You never thought of spitting on the sidewalk until you saw the sign; then you find you keep wondering what would happen if you spit.)

The law was for the purpose of awakening people who ALREADY had hearts softened by God's call and revelation of himself. It was to cause those people to realize that they were falling woefully short of living righteously. It was to cause people to cry out for a Savior to deliver them. It was to cause them to put their faith in the coming Messiah who would carry the burden of their sins.

As our pastor said yesterday, Jesus came to deal with the guilt of sin. The Holy Spirit came to deal with the power of sin in our lives. Because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the law is a moot point for us. Jesus fulfilled it.

The fact that the law is holy and righteous and good (Romans 7) does not mean we are to keep it. In context, that verse means that it states God's demands. It comes from God; it can't be "bad". But it's powerless. It was a shadow, not a Savior. And it only functioned in a setting in which people already had been softened by God's presence.

Now, it's functionless for Christ-followers. Further, it's more powerful to preach Christ to unbelievers than to preach the law, because still the law is a shadow, not the substance.

Praise God for giving us himself and for making us completely new!

Colleen
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Melissa, my children and I have been studying about the 10 commandments in our Bible curriculum. The authors of this study show a reason for the giving of the law that I never thought about before. I understood it from a New Testament perspective, but not as a reason to give it to the Israelites.

ìGodís covenant depended upon Israelís obedience, but the people did not realize that they were unable to obey fully. (Remember they said ìAll that the Lord has spoken we will do.îEx. 19:8)
God gave the Law to Israel to show them that they were unable to please God and make themselves acceptable to Him.
When they gave up and trusted in Him, then he was willing to save them from everlasting punishment.

He wanted to Israelites to see that needed Him for salvation.

He gave His Law so all people would know how sinful they are and that it is impossible for anyone to make himself acceptable to God by the things which he does.

God also gave His Law so that all People would trust only in his mercy to save them from his punishment for sin.

The commands of God are like a mirror, and we cannot see our sinful hearts until the law shows them to us. It shows us what we are on the inside, that is how God sees us.î

This illustration is also given:

ìA man was swimming across a river, but he became tired and was caught in the swift-flowing current. A group of people were on the bank of the river watching. None of them were capable of helping the man who was going to drown, except for one strong man who was an excellent swimmer.

The people on the bank kept urging this man to help the man in the river. But he didn't. He stood watching while the struggling man became weaker and weaker. Finally, when the drowning man became so tired that he gave up his struggle, the strong swimmer dived in and rescued him.

When the people criticized the man for waiting so long before he helped the drowning man, he answered, ëThe drowning man could never have allowed me to help him while he had any strength of his own. I could only help him when he gave up trying to help himselfí."


from Firm foundations ñ Creation to Christ, New Tribes Mission
(NOT to be confused with ìOur firm foundation!î)



Many of us formers or soon to be formers probably have been told, ìYouíve gone off the deep end!!!!î

Well I think most of humanity are gasping and struggling in the ìdeep end,î trying to save themselves.

Yes, I was drowning in ìthe deep end.î BUT, I finally gave up trying to save myself. I cried out to The Life Guard, and he saved me!


This is a quote from the book The Passion of Jesus Christ ñ fifty reasons why he came to die by John Piper, chapter 31 entitled,

ìChrist suffered and diedÖ
SO THAT WE WOULD DIE TO THE LAW AND BEAR FRUIT FOR GOD

ÖThe Bible says that the new way of obedience is fruit-bearing, not law-keeping, ìyou ..have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for Godî (Romans7:4). We have died to law-keeping so that we might live to fruit-bearing. Fruit grows naturally on a tree. If the tree is good, the fruit will be good. And the tree, in this case, is a living relationship of love to Jesus Christ. For this he died. Now he bids us come: ìTrust me.î Die to the law, that you might bear the fruit of love.

Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 292
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and Leigh, that is so fascinating. In some respects it is similar to what I said to her ... that without a period of trying to prove they could do it on their own, they may have never recognized the true value of a savior, but I was not nearly as detailed as your insights. Thanks both for sharing.

I feel for this woman. She was a 2nd gen sda and she and her husband (who had been the head elder) were relieved from all duties because they focused upon the gospel. Someone even told him he was trying to make their church like "one of those Sunday churches." They wanted more EGW, health message and the rest of the 27. He said only the fundamentals were preached in that church, and though they left adventism, they struggled as they still felt obligated to the sabbath. They were going to a Saturday pm service, but they struggled with severe marital issues as they were basically ostracized from their social circle. They hosted a Bible study on friday nights studying romans (sound familiar??) and B actually went with me. he felt he was being railroaded at first, but really began to enjoy it. I really think God ended the study because they weren't strong enough out of Adventism and they were still holding on to too many things subconsciously. I still pray for them and hope God has been able to heal them and their marriage. I know he was in contact with Clay Peck and I think even LAM, but he hadn't studied that much about EGW and still believed she could have had visions, but his main thing was the missing gospel in the church. He told me stories of people thinking they had been perfect for years all because they kept the 10 commandments. It was very eye-opening. She didn't like computers, but many times I have wished she could connect here. Her name is Kim, if God should prompt you to pray for her. His is Bob.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
I have just finished Romans 10 and I thank you for your insights on Romans 7. I read that chapter a number of times before going to chapter 8. I am awed by what I am learning and I have to admit that I need to go back and read and read again. Each time I do I learn something new.
Oh, my story is now posted.
Thanks again for your insights and your encouragement before I signed on here.
Diana
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Diana,
I just read you story. Thanks for sharing it. I can so relate to what you said at the beginning about not reading the Bible because of trusting in the pastors and leaders and when you did. That's what I did, too. I remember having this know-it-all attitute, that "we have the truth, there isn't anything else to learn." Was I ever humbled when I mentioned something about keeping the Sabbath to a co-worker about 14 years ago. She quoted Colossians 2:16

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday of the the new moon, or of the sabbath day."

I didn't know the Bible said that! I had a lot to learn!


Welcome!
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 295
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 6:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of Christ coming "in the fullness of time", I find it fascinating that He came just at the time that the known world had a universal written language for the first time. The OT had been translated into Koine Greek (LXX) and the whole NT would be written in Koine Greek so the message could spread rapidly throughout the world. It truly was the perfect time for the saviour to come.

Chris
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 196
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So true, Chris. Add to the written language the Roman road system that made it possible for apostles and converts to travel more easily than ever before throughout the empire, and it's clear that the time really was right!

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 517
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Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My adult son brought up the importance of keeping the 10 commandments, especially the 4th several days ago and insisted the only real Christians would do this. I told him as Christians we are to follow the example and teachings of Christ and Jesus spent a lot of effort in trying to get the people to realize the 1-0 commandments were a shadow of His coming and the substance is Him. He told me, "Then is it o.k. to commit adultry? Is it o.k. to murder?" I'm sure you all have heard that same line from your SDA kin. I told him,Jesus said, "Some say do not commit adultry but I say to you whoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already committed adultry. Some say do not murder but I say to you whoever hates another has committed murder in his heart." I told him to read the Beatitudes in Matt.5. I told him Jesus said when talking to the rich young man that the greatest commandment is to have love for one another, etc. This is a hard one for my adult son. The SDA religion with its rules and regulations fits his mindset well. He is carreer military and deals with rules very well and thinks he's above emotions and feelings. Jesus emphasized emotions and feelings, not the rules.
Lydell
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Username: Lydell

Post Number: 590
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Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan-2, it's amazing to me that your son is so dyed in the wool SDA in attitude! Within a week of having begun attending the SDA church, a lady asked me husband (who was a captain in the Army at the time), "SO, when are you going to get out of the military?" Asked with a tone of voice that clearly conveyed, "now that you are an Adventist, you will definitely leave the military."

We ran into that attitude repeatedly. It was a combination of the old hypocritical bit of only the medical field work is kosher for sabbath plus the passifism of the SDA as well.

Much of military work done on Saturday is no where remotely close to kosher by SDA rules! He is having to be mighty hypocritical then in his picking which rules he looks at. I know you know that already...

Isn't it nice to be in a place now that recognizes that emotions and feelings are not evil?
Gatororeo7
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Username: Gatororeo7

Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a service member myself, I can certainly attest that the work done on Saturdays is just as much as any other day. Specifically, my job in the Air Force does not require me to show up on Saturday, but I see several airmen and NCOs in uniform and working (for example, the Security Forces... someone has to check my ID when I get back on base!)

What's interesting about that is, there's a guy in my shop who's SDA and currently trying to evangelize me into SDA. Even my wife, who spent 4 years in SDA, is surprised by that.
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 519
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Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My son says it is o.k. to defend our country on the Sabbath. This is a calling from God. There are a lot of SDA chaplins in the military. In fact, Admiral Black who is the chaplin of the U.S. Senate was the head chaplin of the Navy until he got the position he now has with the Senate. Awhile back he had his picture on the cover of a Review magazine and his story was the lead story in that issue. To give you all a bit of SDA history-my dad passed away 1 1/2 years ago at age 93. He was raised from infancy SDA. As a young man he attended the SDA sponsered Medical Cadet Core. The SDA church owned and ran these camps with the purpose of training SDA young men when they got drafted that they could go in at Non-Combatants and already have the training to be military medics. Yet, the SDA church plublishes it's own monthly magazine that it sends out to the SDAs who are serving in our Armed Services. It seems to me they want the people to defend this counrty but at the same time they don't want it. What else is new? The SDA church is one of contradictions.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a mother of a military member, I want to tell you how my son has done it. He was raised SDA, but not real strict. I did not want to make the mistakes my parents did. When he discovered he like the military, about age 12, he asked my "Why does God give my these interests, when the SDA church says the only way an SDA goes into the military is if they are drafted?" My answer to him was not typical SDA. It was, "I do not know why God gave you those interests, so you talk to God about it". I am sure now that God put the words in my mouth. To make a long story short my son talked to God about it served 9 years in the VA Air National Guard. Finished college, a public one, thank God. Then he applied for an officer's commission. He is now a navigator in a C130 Hercules and has been overseas 4 times in the past two years.
I am asking all of you to pray for my son, as he has doctrinal differences with the SDA church and is still a member, but not an active one. He will not attend the SDA church in Abilene, TX. He married a lovely Christian girl and they attend the base church at Dyess AFB. I have told him why I did not rejoin the SDAs and sent him the websites from which I started studying. He has not criticized me and has accepted that I am not SDA any longer. In fact he told me about one thing I told him, "Mom, I learned that a long time ago and told you about it." At that time I was not ready to listen.
Anyway I made this longer than I wanted to do.
He is proud of serving and defending his country.
And of course, I am sure you can all see, I am proud he is my son.
Diana

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