| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 208 Registered: 7-2003 |
Just when I think relations with my in-laws are improving dramatically, my M-I-L calls and asks if she can start sending our two girls weekly subscritions to the "Little Friend" and "Primary Treasure". My wife told her mom that she thinks this would only tend to confuse our children as they will be taught thing that we don't believe in. My M-I-L says that the stories are just good morale stories, just good Christian stories, to which my wife replies that they are Adventist stories. My M-I-L wants to know what we would object to, to which my wife replies the heavy Sabbath emphasis and the subltle idea that Sabbath is necessary for salvation. This gets them into the whole argument about "How can you just choose one commandment to throw out?" My wife tries to discuss the covenants to which my M-I-L responds that the covenants are an age old argument (true.....as old as the Bible itself), and refuses to listen to anymore. My M-I-L stated, "Well, they're going to have to choose for themselves at some point." To which my wife replied, "That's true, and I hope we're equiping them to do so." I'm just waiting to see if the papers show up in our mailbox anyway.....arrrrghhhhhhh!!!!! It's always something...... Chris | ||
| Jeff Registered user Username: Jeff Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2004 |
Chris, Keep your head up. You are only instructed by Scripture to keep the faith and train your children up in the way that they should go. My Mother tried to send my children Adventist information several years ago and I just said thank you and I explained to my children that it contained things that we don't believe are true. They understood. In Christ, Jeff | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 58 Registered: 2-2003 |
Chris, several months ago when we were still attending an sda church, the primary treasure was focusing on "adventist history." Lots of stories about egw, bates, discovering the sabbath, etc. These stories weren't "the lesson" for the week, these were "just the good moral stories" that your m-i-l was talking about. My girls also got some books for Christmas that look similar to the popular American Girl books, but are actually about Adventist girls growing up during the time of egw. These were from my husband's side of the family. | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 404 Registered: 6-2002 |
You have a sharp wife, Chris. She cut right through the ìjust good moral storiesî smoke screen and exposed the raw nerve beneath it, as evidenced by your M-I-Lís strident retort. I have heard many of those ìjust . . .î sentences with the hidden agenda lurking behind the next bush. Iíll bet weíve all heard them. ìWhy are you so upset about Sister Ellen? She was just a good Christian lady who helped others to come to Christ!î (OK, so now that you are already with Christ, why donít you set her writings aside and stick with the Bible?) ìCult?!? How can you say such a horrible thing?!? Adventist are just like any other Bible believing Christians. If you call us a cult, then they must be too, right?î (OK, so if a really solid Christ oriented Adventist happens to decide to switch to one of these ìjust like any otherî Churches and stays there, they can still have every bit as good a relationship with Jesus, right?) ìYou just donít understand!î Right. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 486 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, I can so understand the family dynamics going on here. Though for me it is just the opposite as I am the grandma and it is my son who is indroctronating my grandchildren. However, the babies are only nine months old so I don't think they have been too exposed to it yet but he sure is heaping it on to his six year old. Funny thing is that I don't think my son even knows the weird and unBibical teachings of the sda denomination. The only exposure he ever had to adventism is around four months in ninth grade at Monterey Bay Academy, Soquel campmeeting and every summer as a child attending summer camp at Camp Wawona and Sabbath School at a sda church until he was around 13 years old, or around that age when the sda preacher that was so wonderful and totally gosple oriented quit the sda denomination and started a Christian church that met on Saturday mornings across town and we switched to that church. He seems to have no clue to what the sda church even teaches and his little girl is going to kindergarten daily from 8:00a.m. to 3:00 p.m. at the local sda school, he has her thinking Pathfinders is the coolest club around and he takes the child to Sabbath School weekly and to the sda vacation Bible School. The good news is that his children and his wife are very sharp folks and I susspect will soon begin pointing out the more goofy and weird things that the child will soon be exposed to. His wife is a non-practicing Catholic so time will only tell what is taking place in the religious training of the children. So far I have noticed that the religious training of my granddaughter has been to not eat pork and what is and what is not allowed as proper Sabbath observance. I have not heard the word "grace" mentioned. I think my concerns are typical. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, I find that my SDA M-I-L will take advantage of times when things are seemingly going well. In other words, when they are comfortable with you to some degree after a strained relationship, they will attack anew. As eager opportunists, they will wait for the near-perfect moment to blurt out some outrageous rhetoric. Usually at this point, the relationship goes back to square one. Unfortunately, they (SDAs) take great pride in being "settled in the truth." Consequently, they have no desire or need to seek God's truth. Yes, you guessed it, they know everything. Remember those not-distant days when we likewise felt this way? Wow! What a miracle of God's love and grace to be called out of Adventism! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Rochelleradclif Registered user Username: Rochelleradclif Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2003 |
When I first left Adventism I had difficulty also with Adventist friends and relatives wanting to share Ellen White's literature with me. I co-worker wanted to give me a copy of the Desire of Ages. A friend of my adopted grandmother wanted to sit and chat about Ellen White for over an hour and I had to leave the room just to keep my head clear. On the few occasions when I made a decision to attend a service with a SDA parent or friend, there were numerous references to the beliefs of Ellen White. These experiences were very confusing and painful for me because I loved Jesus, but didn't like to hurt friends or family members either. God used those situations to teach me how to set godly priorities and learn to put my relationship with Jesus ahead of my desire to be approved of by other people. He (God) also used those experiences to teach me how to choose friends who can be in agreement with me in regards to my testimony of how it was the Holy Spirit who led me away from Ellen White's visions and dreams to a place where I was able to submit her visions and dreams to the authority of the scriptures. I did waste some years trying to be close to believers who viewed Adventisms connection with Ellen White dreams as mild doctrinal error. These believers wanted to be well thought of by Adventists, but they weren't concerned with whether or not the Adventist people have an authentic relationship with Jesus through his blood alone. I'm learning to leave people who are unable to understand what God is doing in my life in His hands and reach out towards believers who have a passion to see the Adventist people as well as people in other religious groups experience God as Father through Jesus Christ. Adventism introduced me to good, caring people who often had more thirst for righteousness and mercy than other denominations, but the altered gospel kept me away from having God as my heavenly Father I found out that most Adventists have received Jesus Christ as their Creator because of their emphasis on Sabbath keeping, but have not really accepted Jesus Christ on His terms which is by His blood alone. Somehow, I want the Holy Spirit to help me share with religious people from all kinds of groups how hurt and disappointed He is when we try to receive the gift of eternal life on the terms of our favorite Christian leader or writer, instead of believing the word of God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2003 |
So well said, Rochelle. I quite unexpectedly met a former Adventist yesterday as I was interviewing prospective students who are applying to attend our school next year. this mom had grown up Adventist in a "professional" family, and she has really upset her "intellectual" relatives with her new-found life with Jesus. Her story was so interesting; your post above reminded me of it, Rochelle. She had been searching for "something more" for years, attending different SDA churches and finally stopping attending altogether. One day she saw a billboard for a large local Christian church, and she went with her son the next Sunday. The pastor had al altar call at the end of the sermon, and he asked, "Do you believe in God?" Just as she was answering "yes" in her head, he said, "The people who flew their planes into the twin towers also believed in God." She was nonplussed, but he continued: "Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?" Again she congratulated herself that she had it right. Then he said, "The demons also believe Jesus is the Son of God." At that point she became disturbed and asked herself what she really did believe. The pastor continued, "Do you know where you would go if you died tonight? If you say, 'I hope I'll go to heaven,' I tell you, the Bible never says that if we hope we will get to heaven. If you say, 'I think I'll go to heaven,' you need to know the Bible never says that if we think, we will get to heaven. "What the Bible says is that you must be born again to get to heaven." This lady realized that Adventists "never talk about being born again." She was deeply convicted, and she responded to the call and accepted Jesus as her Savior. She said he filled her, and she finally understood what her husband had been trying to tell her for years about the twistedness of Adventism. She is so on fire for Jesus, and, she said, she and her family can hardly have conversations anymore because her experience with Jesus is what she talks about, and they are so uncomfortable with the subject. She has been a Christian for three years, and there's no turning back. Her husband, who was never Adventist, is thrilled, and they all worship and are involved in ministry together now. It was a remarkable conversation in such an unexpected setting. It is SO wonderful to see the miracle of God redeeming one out of that subtle but powerful cult! (I asked her if she's learned to cook meat yet, and she confessed she hasn't. She's just learning to eat chicken--she hasn't gotten to the cooking phase yet! That sounded so familiar!) Praise God for his faithfulness! Colleen | ||
| Rochelleradclif Registered user Username: Rochelleradclif Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2003 |
That was a great testimony, Colleen. Thank you for sharing it. It's amazing to me how similar the experiences of former Adventists really are to each other. I never connected eating meat but not cooking meat to my Adventist upbringing since I do eat meat. I'll have to think about that. On a more serious note, I have a younger sister who was raised Adventist as I was, but has not been able to develop a relationship with Jesus Christ and has been suffering with mental illness for some time. She can't understand why she does not have encounters with God like she has read about in Christian magazines or other literature. Near the beginning of her problems, I tried to caution her about trusting Ellen White doctrines but she was not open to hearing that. My feeling is that she has interpreted her personal trials as evidence that God loves her less than other people. Please pray that God would reveal his heart of love towards her. Rochelle | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 67 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rochelle, I'm praying that your sister will be open to God's deep comfort and that she will be willing to surrender whatever fear or belief stands in her way of experiencing the assurance of His love. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 209 Registered: 7-2003 |
In the same vein as this thread, my wife just called me to tell me the latest. She was fixing my 4 y/o daughter's hair this morning and my daughter said, "I wish I could get my ears pierced." My wife said, "Well, when you're older you can". My daughter replied, "No, I can't." "Why not?" "Grandma said not to." "When did she say that". "This weekend when she was watching me." "What did she say exactly?" "She just said not to get my ears pierced. I don't want to talk to you about this." This really irritates me. My older 8 year old daughter won't touch a hot dog or peperonni pizza becasue Grandma told her to never ever eat pig. Now my younger daughter thinks she can never have earrings because Grandma said not to. I don't wan't to go to war over small non-essential things. I would like to preserve some family peace if posible, but on the other hand, I don't want my children to grow up with needles guilt and legalism. If I had wanted that for them I could have done the easy thing and just stayed in Adventism. It's really hard to know what to do at times. How do you think Jesus or one of His apostles would have handled such a matter? Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 189 Registered: 7-2003 |
Though it was an entirely different issue, I had to make a choice between being my mother's daughter or my daughter's mother. My mother kept going behind my back to talk to anyone about what I was "doing" to my child rather than talking to me. She was also passing around bad information, which created all sorts of conflicts. I didn't have the strength or fortitude to constantly fight my mother's back-handed tactics and take care of my children at the same time. FOR ME, I put space between us. Until she could learn to respect my position as the mother of my children, I took her out of the loop for a while. We still visited at holidays, but I completely stopped all communication about my daughter's situation. I realize that sounds harsh, but it was the only thing I knew to do to force her to accept that I was the person God had entrusted this child to, and for better or worse, if she couldn't support the decisions I made for that child (though not meat and jewelry, not life-threatening either), I let her live with the consequences of her choices. I would have gladly discussed anything with my mother about my child's situation, but she ultimately needed to allow me to be the parent. I know it's not an identical situation because I'm sure your mother feels her concerns are of an eternal nature in some way, but my mother thought I was hampering my child from getting proper medical treatment, which wasn't accurate either. As hard as it is for me to put up boundaries around my life, I actually achieved it with my mother. Though it certainly strained our relationship and it will never be what it might have been if I rolled over and done everything she wanted me to do regardless of my own functioning brain, she eventually learned I was the kid's mother. Maybe defining some healthy boundaries would be beneficial? and some equally real consequences....? Believe me, far easier to say than do but being silent could be perceived as a form of passive approval by your daughter (and may open the door to more by your mother??). My ex used to yell at me a lot and in front of my dad or anyone else, but my dad never said a word in my defense until we separated. Then he mentioned he thought it was wrong and out of line for him to treat me that way. I had endured the years of verbal bashing in part BECAUSE I had the idea that my dad thought it was okay for him to treat me that way. Again, that's not meat or jewelry, but it certainly seems to have set a pattern for me. Those are a couple of thoughts as a daughter and a parent. For what it's worth.... | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 461 Registered: 3-2001 |
Chris, I think this is a great opportunity to teach your children about boundaries, so they learn where they other people stop and they begin. They can learn that families operate differently. In Grandma's house we do "x", but in our house we do "y." I think it would be a tragedy to allow your children to grow up saddled with other people's baggage, simply to keep the peace. They should learn to respect Grandma, and the rules in her house--obviously they will never eat pepperoni there, but I think that is the extent of it. I wouldn't even do the "removing of jewelry" thing that used to be so common in Adventism. As far as the jewelry thing goes, my daughter is now eighteen. My ex-wife was not an Adventist, so there was always this tension between her and I. She wanted my daughter to be a girl (i.e. rings, earrings, etc.). I was staunchly against it. Out of respect for me, she never pushed the issue. When my daughter turned fifteen or sixteen (her mom and I were already divorced by then), the got her ears pierced. It was funny how I suddenly realized how foolish my position had been. Its not that big of a deal. I realized that I was more concerned with what her wearing of jewlry said about me than anything else. I suspect that may be more common than we realize. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 210 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for your comments Melissa. And Doug, I agree with what you say. Just to clarify, it is not so much a matter of my children not being able to do these things. My 8 y/o has earrings and she leaves them in when we go to Grandma's. I offer both my kids hotdogs, pepperoni, or whatever whenever I have it. They know that Grandma believes one way and we believe another. But at this age it's all so confusing. I can tell them it's okay to have a hotdog all I want, but they're confused by what Grandma said so they won't have one. I can tell my little one that she can have earrings (when she's a bit older than 4), but she'll still have it in the back of her mind that Grandma said it was bad. I just wish my in-laws understood that it's inappropriate to try and force their beliefs on my minor children. It's very frustrating because I'm telling my kids one thing, they're telling them another, and my kids are getting confused by it. It makes me want to take Melissa's apprach and just say, "I can't leave my kids unsupervised over here until you agree not to try indoctrinating them when I'm not around". Very frustrating. Chris | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 462 Registered: 3-2001 |
Might be time to have a talk with the in-laws. Actually, its probably time that your spouse have the talk. I agree the Adventist influence can be strong, especially because they make it a salvation issue. Even though they may not come out and say it to your kids, I think the message is communicated loud and clear. Given what you just shared, I think Melissa's approach may be best. "If you want to spend time with your grandchildren, these are the rules." Its their choice whether they choose to follow them or not. The one thing that I have become keenly aware of is that many Adventists have a very poor senese of boundaries. Because they're right, they have no reservation at all with helping you to "manage" your life, but tend to be very closed-minded about their own behavior. SOmetimes bluntness is the only thing that works. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 463 Registered: 3-2001 |
BTW Chris, I noticed that earlier you said your wife had tried to explain the covenants to your inlaws, but that it fell on deaf ears. Unfortunately, this is not an issue of the rightness or wrongness of their (or your) doctrinal beliefs. This has to do with the basic right that you and your wife have to raise your children without unwanted external influence--especially when it is contradictory. This reminds me of a situation that I expressed previously. My fiance's mother had the nerve to chastise me for choosing not to send my son to the SDA church anymore. She said I did not have a "right" to remove him from that environment. She even had the nerve to approach him (behind my back) when he happened to be at church one day to tell him that he needed to be back there. I guess when you have the "truth," you have an obligation to share it with others, whether they want it or not--even if they are someone's child. (said with tongue planted firmly in cheek). | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 190 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess what Doug said last would also be my concern without some boundaries. What if they do start to request your children not tell you what they talk about? They undermine your authority as the parents ... though it may not be the issue now, teenage years are a-coming! I also hate to see the precident of dual standards. Since my parents are divorced, and that was their thing (you live by one set of rules at one place and another set of rules at another), you learn that there aren't a lot of absolutes, just absolutes by household. Your kids could be very different than me and may respond completely differently than I did. I just see the potential now that I'm older. And as much as I hate it, I work with my ex to provide a united front on rules for our 10 and 14-year olds so they get some idea of consistency from their primary authorities. They have plenty of time to get the confusion in the outside world ... hopefully after they've had a fairly stable foundation.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I totally agree with Melissa and Doug above. You really do have to let your in-laws know that they are not welcome to tell your children any standards of living or to give them any sort of religious instruction. That is your job, and truly, if they can't comply, they may have to be distanced from the kids for a while. The other part of the equation is what you say to your kids. I remember a wonderful Christian counselor saying one time that you confuse a child and negate what is real in his life if you do not tell him the truth or affirm the truth he experiences. For example, if a child feels unsafe with a family member, for example, but you gloss over their discomfort and say how much that person loves them and encourage them to treat him or her lovingly, you may be actually communicating something damaging to that child. If a child is being abused (extreme example, I know!) by someone but you refuse to discuss the details and insist that the child treat that person respectfully and lovingly for the sake of "getting along", you are teaching that child that the truth is relative, that sometimes you don't tell the truth, and sometimes a child just has to suffer in order for the grown-ups to get along. These circumstances teach the child that they are to ignore the truth and discount their experience. I believe that in your circumstance, Chris, you should tell your kids why Grandma and Grandpa are wrong about these things. The truth is always the best option. You may not be able to stop your in-laws, but you can teach your children that even people they love can be deceived. They need to learn that there is absolute truth--the Bible--and even Grandma and Grandpa (and maybe even mom and dad sometimes!) can be wrong. Unfortunately, some distance may develop between you and them, as well as between your children and them, but the fault lies in the deception, not in your insistance that your children learn the truth. Your children need to know what you believe and why, even if it means they know Grandma and Grandpa are wrong. Otherwise, your kids will be confused, and they will grow up doubting you. As Doug said, the cultic certainty that they have truth gives Adventists permission to break boundaries, invade privacy, and indoctrinate whoever they think they should. You may not be able to stop them, but you can teach your children what the Bible says and equip them to know that they do not need to be confused by Grandma and Grandpa. It's OK--indeed, it's ineveitable--that there will be some distance. Distance, however, is better than your children growing up confused and guilty over things that should not bother them. I'm praying for you and your wife to be able to have God's wisdom in dealing with this issue! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2000 |
Sylvia and I have a problem (about relating to grandchildren)in reverse from what is being discussed on this thread. Our two grandchildren, ages 8 and 9, attend an SDA elementary school at Battle Ground, Washington (near Portland, Oregon). Their parents still believe in the SDA lifestyle; however, they attend church services infrequently. The Adventism of the parents is mostly cultural in nature. It is not uncommon for our grandchildren to recite SDA prooftexts as memory verses on the phone--including, of course, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." What should be our proper response, as former SDA grandparents, in these conversations with our grandkids? How evangelistic should we be or dare to be? Any suggestions? Concerned grandparents, Dennis & Sylvia Fischer | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 465 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dennis, I would say that the answer to your question depends on the desires of the parents. If they are staunchly rooted in Adventism, then I believe you have to bite your tongue until the children are older. Certainly there are opportunities to share about the grace of God, but I would avoid getting into discussions which contradict the htings they are being taught at home. On the other hand, if the parents are ambivalent about Adventism (if that is possible), then I would be more assertive in pointing out errors. Perhaps a good barometer is to look at the parents' response to you and Sylvia's departure from Adventism. Are they open or are they defensive? You say that the parents attend infrequently. It seems odd that they would be active enough to have the children repeating memory verses. That seems to be something that most kids would not do unless they had frequent and regular exposure. By all means, share the good news of the Gospel with them, but depending on the circumstances it might be more subtle than overt. In any regard, I believe you have to respect the parent's desires. In His Grace Doug |
