| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 413 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, Willow Creek is in the Chicago Area. I am quite near it and pass by the campus regularly. I have seen this style of worship succeed and fail for many reasons. I consider their strategy a valid, often meaningful style, but not the only valid style. I agree that to automatically say Willow Creek = shallow is not a good conclusion. I also believe that anyone who automatically concludes that "traditional with organ and hymnal" = boring and meaningless is also over-generalizing. Whenever any church, using any style, concentrates on the exterior style instead of the Spirit, failure to achieve meaningful relationship with God is almost certain. Whenever any church, using any style, concentrates on the Spirit and uses the worship style only as a tool to further their relationship with God, success is much more likely. Willow Creek, with all of its success and problems seems most likely to fall into the later category. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yesterday I attended the church that is a ìWillow Creekî church. It was their open house weekend and you could tell they were really trying to aim for the baby seeker. The sermon was on understanding that God can still be present in our midst today. I assume that it was because of the ìseekerî focus that the pastor did not have a Bible up front and was almost finished with the sermon before a Bible text appeared on the screen. He did have a mid-20s girl give her testimony at the end. She was so obviously radiating the love of Jesus that it was impacting in itself. So my guess as to why Iíve heard in the past that it might be ìshallowî is because of the lack of expository preaching. However, I feel they are trying to be true to the calling theyíve been given of reaching someone totally unchurched. As to the music, the first year I faded out of Adventism I went to many different churches. And Iíve also been to lots of interdenominational conferences. For me (and this is only MY personal taste), I truly can worship God best with the contemporary style where there is freedom to worship as the Holy Spirit dictates. Almost every single church Iíve been in does that immensely better than the local SDA church, which I donít feel understands the concept of P&W time. For them itís either a ìfillerî so people can be seated or itís something to do but hurry up and get it over so you can check off the next thing on the list. And the concept of standing during the P&W time. WhoaÖ.the SDAs where I attended would never have put up with that. But it was quite odd yesterday. There was a contemporary style, a competent praise and worship group, a congregation full of 20 and 30-somethings yet they were dead during the singing. Many didnít sing. Few clapped. I saw no raised hands. I did not sense the Holy Spirit moving in with the power for people to worship. I was totally puzzled that it seemed so similar to the SDA church. It could very well be that there were lots of unchurched visitors, yet it seemed lots of people knew each other. While I donít feel a calling to be involved with that church, I do think I know why the Holy Spirit directed that way yesterday. But so as to not mix up the threads, Iíll post it under the ìTheyíre at it againî one. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 249 Registered: 7-2003 |
My first clue that there might be something else going on with the church was when you said no scripture till the end. Even on our most seeker-oriented Sunday (Easter) scripture is still first and foremost in every service. The preaching style has really nothing to do with the praise and worship style. Our pastor does verse by verse when going through a book. We've been studying David lately, so have been focusing upon some of the main stories in his life. You can't have dynamic praise and worship and skip on teaching any more than you can skip on praise and worship to get great teaching. I also like the contemporary service because I feel as though it's okay to smile. There is something we must be taught about being reverent that means you can't smile because I don't ever remember smiling when we were singing in my old traditional style church ... and I don't remember any others either since I was in the choir loft looking at everyone else. As someone else said earlier, God will let you know when you have found where he wants you to go. I still remember him whispering in my ear that this was the church I was looking for. And though I've gotten frustrated at times and sought to find something else, God just keeps bringing me back here ... so I'll serve him here as long as he wants me to. God may take you to a variety of churches so you can sharpen your discerning skills and to let you see what is really out there in the full body of Christ. In his time, he'll show you your home fellowship. I remember praying for God to show me where he wanted me to go and I tried churches with names over the door I'd never been to before. I was really trying hard to break down my comfort zone to be receptive to anywhere he might lead me. It was a great trust builder as well as eye opener. I think you'll look back on this time some day and see the finger of God all through it. Keep on trusting! It's a great journey. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2004 |
Because I just recently did not rejoin the SDA church I am finding it difficult to find somewhere to worship. I am visiting different churches and am praying about it. I feel so alone as I am the only one I know of, who is former SDA, who wants to worship some where, here in Las Vegas/Henderson. My sister considers herself SDA but does not go to church and there is a lady who went to the SDA academy with an older sister who used to be SDA. My sister does not want to investigate what I have been learning and the lady I have not contacted. But any way I feel alone, though I know feelings are not facts and God is with me all the time. Pray that I will find the church God wants me at. I need roots and people with whom to worship. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2003 |
Flyinglady, I will pray for you and God will help you find the church family he wants you to be a part of. I can identify with the feeling of being alone. Early on in my journey I felt that in an overwhelming way. It does fade over time as you become assimilated into the body of Christ. I cannot recommend staying in the habit of corporate worship enough. Try several different churches and stay in prayer. God will lead you where He wants you to be. Chris | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 150 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi everyone! I just want to say, if there are any new formers here or lurkers in the Atlanta area, my church is just starting a new "Alpha" course. The opening night was last night, but it really begins next Tuesday night at 6:00 or 6:15. If anyone wants to know what Alpha is about go to alphacourse.org - It's our second "semester" and the first was extremely successful! It's an excellent program for non-believers, but I also thought that anyone in this area who might be looking for a church home, or who has any unchurched friends they would want to bring, might want to consider it. It's really been awesome! If you are interested, you can get details, directions, time, etc., by going to the church website, wesleyanfellowship.org - love you all! Carol | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi Every one, First I want to wish all mothers a very happy Mother's Day. Two weeks ago God put into my mind to visit the big church right off the 95 freeway into Las Vegas. It is about 8 miles from home. I went and felt at home immediately. I had visited a Calvary Chapel, a Community Church and a cell church that meets at a local community center. This church is called Central Christian Church. It has classes that teach the essential of salvation for those who want to join it. The first thing they said was that this is a journey and that journey is Christ and we need to develop a relationship with Him. Then we need to develop relationships with others as it is hard to travel alone. To take this journey we need a back pack. In the back pack are Bibles and memory verses. The second lesson is who do we follow and we learned that Jesus is the way the way, the truth and the life. This is a 7 week class. And because I had studied and believed an untruth for so long I jumped right in and signed up for the next class of 20 weeks. This is called the Discovery E Series. The outline for it reads as follows: 1. Edification: constructing God's people, 2. Exaltation: Celebrating God's Presence, 3. Evangelism: Communicating God's Son, 4. Encouragement: Caring for God's people, 5. Extension: Channeling God's gifts and resources. There are all kinds of small groups to get involved in and volunteer work to help with. I am volunteering with the volunteer section and I want to try the Hospitality section. I like meeting people and am gregarious. The music is very upbeat, though at times I miss the old hymns. The have a musical group with guitars, drums, key board. Most of the music I have never heard. But I like it and the words of the songs praise God. Most of the people I have met have been so nice. Oh, on your first visit there, if a person wants to, they can meet with a member and ask any questions they want. A small bag is given to each person that meets with the appointed members that meet with new comers. It is filled with literature that tells about the church and what it has to offer and what it is about. I had prayed about a church and this is the one God took me to. It is a large church and has 3 services, one on Saturday evening and two on Sunday evening. I am excited about it and what I am learning. Never in all my SDA experience (first grade through university and being a member after that) did any one say to me these are the essentials of being a Christian and this is how we accomplish it. No one ever told me this is a journey with Christ and this is how to develop a relationship with him. o, I thank all of you for praying for me that I find a church. I am excited about learning all the things I thought I knew as an SDA. WOW!! What a difference. If any one ever comes to Las Vegas, come and visit us. Let me know and I will tell you exactly where the church is. Diana | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 241 Registered: 7-2000 |
Diana, Congrats on finding a new church home! What I've found is that in every area that there is a least one, and usually several, Christ following/grace based churches. The names over the door may sometimes surprise you---it won't be the same from place to place. I'm still looking for a solid, Bible teaching/community building church where I moved to a few months ago. I was invited to attend a little Baptist church by a member and that was where I was yesterday. I never though I'd be interested in a Baptist church (too many problems with the theology of some Baptists) but this church is quite unique. This church is teaching right from the Bible and working on building a community of believers with a focus on discipleship. Soooo, I may wind up a member there. What is so weird though is SDA's reaction to whatever church you are attending. If you're attending a Baptist church, you're a Baptist. Ditto for any other church. They don't have the understanding of 'christian' or 'Christ follower' who is presently a member of (name the church). As you also pointed out, they aren't too good at sharing the essentials of the gospel. But they are good at pointing out what a 'good' SDA wouldn't do!  | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 311 Registered: 7-2003 |
Loneviking said: "What is so weird though is SDA's reaction to whatever church you are attending. If you're attending a Baptist church, you're a Baptist. Ditto for any other church. They don't have the understanding of 'christian' or 'Christ follower' who is presently a member of (name the church)." Chris: Loneviking, you're so right! When we first told my in-laws that we were leaving, My M-I-L asked, "So what are you going to be now? Are you going to become Catholics?" My wife replied, "No, we're just going to be Christians." To which my M-I-L queried, "So what's that mean, that you don't stand for anything?" It's interesting to me that an SDA would perceive the name "Christian" as standing for nothing. Chris | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris and Loneviking are so right on! I just spent over 1 & 1/2 hours in an airport in the middle of the night w/my former Brother-in-Law, a staunch SDA. We've spoken many times. Perhaps he's starting to melt under the power of the Holy Spirit. I witnessed to him almost continuously for the hour and a half, while he asked questions. We finally got to the point of baptism. I explained that while the SDA church baptizes into the SDA church, Christian churches baptize into the Body of Christ. He asked, if one is baptized in the Baptist church, is that Baptism recognized in the Presbyterian church. I explained to him that it is recognized because it was not a baptism into the Baptist church, it was a baptism into the body of Christ, of which both churches are a member. At the end of the discussion, I challenged him with a variation of the Challenge on Janet Brown's website. I challenged him to read only Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians for one month, without reading ANYTHING else. He didn't want that challenge. Instead he came up with a challenge of his own: Steve, you try to convert me to becoming a plain Christian, and I'll try to convert you back into the SDA church. I took him up on it. Although we haven't met to study yet, I'm looking forward to his apparent openness to study the Word of God. The name "Christian" stands in opposition to any so-called divisions that may appear in the Body of Christ (see 1 Corinthians ch. 1.) Praise Jesus for the opportunity to witness to my brother-in-law. Steve | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2003 |
Steve, I pray that the holy Spirit will give you great wisdom and will lead you as you witness to your B-I-L. I pray that Spirit will open his eyes and remove the veil so that he might understand and embrace the Gospel of Grace you are presenting. Chris | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2004 |
I'm posting to express my frustration about finding a church home. I have been going to a Willow Creek contemporary celebration style "seeker" church that has Baptist roots but found it frustrating because there was no Sunday School discussion class and consequently it was very hard to get to actually know people. I would find myself going week after week and not know but a few people. I DID join a small group and got to know them (about 8-10) but that was it. Then because there are 2 services at this church I wouldn't usually bump into them either. I also started finding the sermons a little boring. So, I decided to try a Methodist church that one of my acquaintances goes to--she loves it--so my 11 yr old daughter and I went today. It really reminded me of the Adventist church. The style and order of service were similar--a bit more liturgical and the preachers wore robes--but o/w quite similar. I was welcomed very warmly when I came in and was escorted to a Sunday School class where again everyone introduced themselves and greeted me warmly. So far so good. I was starting to think to myself that this might be a good option of a church to come to. Then the discussion started. It was on Matthew 5 where Jesus talks about how He didn't come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. The discussion that ensued made me think that it was Saturday and I was in Sabbath School. These people had NO concept of the New Covenant and were so misinformed that I couldn't keep silent. When one man spoke that in Jesus' day He offended a lot of people because He kept healing folks on Sunday, the "sabbath" I raised my hand. I told them that my understanding was that the Sabbath that Jesus was healing on was Saturday--not Sunday and that we are no longer slaves to the Law. We are no longer obligated to monitor our salvation status by referring back to the Law. The Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites as a way to show them that they were not capable of keeping it. Well, the whole class practially got into an uproar and I could see that they were very defensive. They really believe (like the Billy Graham column in yesterday's newspaper) that keeping the Law or the Ten Commandments is still very necessary. The class tried to skirt around the issue of all the other things required in Leviticus, etc but boy they were going to hang on for dear life to that Ten Commandments. I asked them how they could ignore the Fourth Commandment and their stock answer was that Jesus transferred the sacredness to Sunday in honor of His Resurrection. Honestly I sometimes wonder if I will EVER find a church that understands the difference between the Old and New Covenants and teaches that. Anybody else live in the South and found answers? I looked up the Evangelical Free Church on the web and found the closest one to be in Columbia which is 90 miles--too far. Spartanburg appears to have limited options for me and I'm not sure what to do about it. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2004 |
Conniegodenick, I just said a prayer about your finding a church. It took me 4 months to find one. I tried the cell church, Calvary Chapel, The Community Church and ended up at the Central Christian church. I even looked up the Evangelical Free church but there is not one here in the Las Vegas/Henderson area. Keep praying. God will send you where he wants you. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 247 Registered: 12-2003 |
Connie, I completely understand your frustration. I'll also pray that God will guide you to the church where you can grow. He will--He is faithful. Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 155 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hi Connie! I attend a church with no Sunday School, however the cell groups that meet during the week are very strong. I also have experienced not seeing many of my cell group members due to there being two services. What helped my husband and me a lot was volunteering in the "Garden," which is the children's Sunday School. My husband teaches 4th grade boys & plays in the youth band, and I teach 4-year olds during the service we don't attend. This has helped us tremendously in making friends and feeling a part of things. I also help with Alpha on Tuesday nights, which also aided in my getting acquainted with more people. Just a thought, and I thank God that he showed you the very first visit to the Methodist church that it was not what He had planned for you! Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2003 |
Connie, We also attend a church with no Sunday School. The children (under 12)have sunday school during the sermon. Several times during the year, they have an 11 week series of different classes addressing different issues such as new members classes, evangelism, etc. We also attend a biweekly small group meeting. The church we attend is nondenominational. I knew some of the members, such as my neighbor, before we started going. I went to the church's website and checked out their statement of faith to see what to expect. I pray that God will lead you in this search. I grew up near Asheville, NC and went to camp meeting a few times at Lake Junaluska, and also at Pisgah. It has been awhile since I've lived there, though. Leigh | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-2000 |
Connie, In the early 1970s, while still in departmental leadership in the Carolina Conference, I was part of a "group canvass" for the city of Spartanburg, SC. This was a prelude to an SDA evangelistic series. As two of us canvassers (literature evangelists) were exiting a house in an upscale Spartanburg neighborhood, the local police were waiting for us in the driveway. They stopped our entire group canvass for one day until a local SDA physician intervened with the police chief. So, for one entire day, we had nothing to do as we stayed at a local motel. Oh yes, I remember the warm, humid weather there on a summer day (smile). However, the air-conditioned Baskin-Robbins ice cream parlor was a wonderful retreat. Wow, the sweat equity we had in Adventism. Additionally, I remember suffering from a sore throat infection after this group canvass. On Saturdays, I used to preach up to three sermons in one day in three different SDA churches. Truly, I was deceived big time! Literature evangelists were not excited about "group canvassing" because it took them out their assigned territory. In the event of delinquency, the colporteur was responsible for that account. Being out of one's territory, this posed an additional hardship. Group canvassing was solely the idea of the Conference leadership. Of course, the local Spartanburg literature evangelist didn't welcome a group canvass either. It is indeed a difficult way to make a living. What a relief to be no longer in such a strange occupation! Continue to pray for a church family that you can grow with spiritually. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2000 |
I'm trying to remember who it is on here is from the Sacramento area. We had a concert last night at the First Baptist in Tahoe by a lady named Lou Ann Lee. Her husband, Cedric is the pastor at what sounds like an incredible church called Sonrise Community Church in Meadow Vista, just above Auburn on Hwy. 80. The rest of you folks will be hearing more about this lady. Darlene Zech of Hillsong has nothing on her! Lou Ann is having a live concert recorded in Auburn in July by Integrity music. It should be an unforgettable time of worship. Anyway, if you are in or around Sacramento the church website is: www.sonrise.org Bill | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2002 |
Loneviking, I'm in the Sacramento area. I think it's me you're looking for. =) My wife and I have been attending Grace Christian Fellowship in Auburn for several weeks now. I've heard about Sonrise church a few times from my pastor and I may have even heard about that concert. Since we're both in the same area, if you hear about other things going on in the area, you can give me a hollar at my email: joel.london@sbcglobal.net. | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2002 |
Connie, I also echo your frustration. My wife and I spent yesterday after church with our pastor and his wife at their home, and we really got to know them. I thank God that He has led us to a very grace-grounded church with strong leadership. Honestly, I believe that the grace of God is not taught enough in churches today. We want too desperately to hang onto the Law. Legalism runs rampant; a lot of that we saw in Adventism is seen elsewhere. These days, its almost impossible to find a church that doesnt preach some kind of works salvation or a sort of Galatianism. Finding a church is going to be at God's leading. I don't know what to tell you other than to be patient. Don't forsake fellowship by other means however. Obviously being a part of this forum can help, although it certainly doesn't replace live contact. Surround yourself with truth. I am a huge supporter or Bob George's ministry at People to People Ministries, and honestly he's the only one on the radio preaching the true grace of God. God will lead you where you need to be, in His time. |
