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Archive through June 22, 2000jtree20 6-22-00  9:27 am
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Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Adrian,

It's never too late to join or re-start a thread.

You mention that you added the "you will be beautiful" statement. I've actually heard one of the word faith preachers here in the U.S., Creflo(?) Dollar, actually state that you will be beautiful. By believing the message and confessing it with your mouth, you will be transformed into the image that God intended you to be. But you must confess it with your mouth or God can't unleash your true beauty. He said that, although you may not notice any difference when you look in a mirror, others will only see a very beautiful person.

This guy's last name, Dollar, also makes me wonder about him. I don't know if that's his real name or if he changed it sometime in the past.

Interesting to hear that the church in Hungary uses the same term to identify leaders. I.e., the ones with the "anointing." Usually, they are the preachers that can talk for an hour between breaths, while the believer soars with the eagles in their minds, but don't quite make it in their flesh.

It is truly a faith that appeals to the flesh, as you point out.

It's good to know you're there and aware of the problem. Perhaps God can use you as one who can provide some insight and balance in the midst of spiritual confusion from those wolves.

Steve
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 242
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 7:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wondered about Mr. Dollar's name too. Do any of you have an opinion about TDJakes? I know hanegraff (or however you spell it) lumps him in with word of faith teachers, but I have friends who think he's okay. I have listened to Deon Sanders give his testimony and he said TDJakes lead him to the Lord ... and Deon is not silent about his faith. I've seen him on several talk shows, but it's always TBN, which I hear is strongly word of faith.

Just can't let your guard down anywhere...
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 240
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 7:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, my understanding is that T.D. Jakes denies the Trinity. I believe he is a modalist (Oneness Pentacostal). You can get more information on Bishop Jakes on the Apologetics Index site.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 243
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, that was very enlightening, indeed. I had noticed he was on the gaither homecoming program a couple of weeks ago and they were talking about building unity among believers, which I couldn't believe they would do if he were teaching heresy. I know Phillips, Craig and Dean are also modalists, but we still play their music on the radio. I don't know what to think of all that.

Thanks for the pointer.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 287
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Phillips, Craig and Dean are Baptists? Or so I thought? What is Modalists? How do you know this Melissa. I love them!!!

Would anyone come give their testimony on www.carm.org? I could seriously use the help...the SDA's accuse me of lying, a lot!
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 241
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Phillips, Craig, and Dean are also some variety of Oneness Pentacostals (modalists). Modalism (also called Sabelliansim)is an anchient heresy that denies the Trinity. In paticular it denies that the one God eternaly exist in three personaly distinct ways or persons. In other words, modalism would deny that there is any eternal distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Modalism says that God has different modes. Sometimes he is in the Father mode, sometimes he is in the Son mode, sometimes the Spirit mode, but never all three at once. Most oneness Pentacostals would say that God's name is "Jesus". They would say that Jesus was the Father before the incarnation, Jesus was the Son during the incarnation, and Jesus is now the Spirit during the church age.

Chris
Loneviking
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Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Pheeki, Pheeki---(shaking my head in amazement)
Are you still trying to talk sense into those cultic knuckleheads over on CARM? I'm afraid that's a lost cause. I do far better warning other Christians and combatting SDA nonsense over on Crosswalk.com. It's a christian forum and quite a few folks over there are wise to their ways.

Modalism is the teaching that there is only one God who manifests Himself in three different ways. So, God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same individual---just different 'modalities' or ways of appearing.

Clear as mud?
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand their website is pretty blatant modalist, though I've never seen it. Lots of things come under the name baptist. It's not a copyrighted name that means one denomination. There are independent baptists, southern baptist, general baptists, american baptists etc. Just because someone claims the name baptist (and I don't know they do), that doesn't mean orthodox.
Carol_2
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Username: Carol_2

Post Number: 147
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki - You're in my prayers! Maybe you should invite some of those on CARM to another website to debate, one more objective with all types of Christians.....just an idea. Would seem to be more fair that way. Just a thought.

Love you all!!!

Carol #2 (not to be confused with "Another Carol")
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My good friend who also takes care of my kids when I work is Apostolic, or oneness, she wont go to a church that baptizes in the Father Son and Holy Ghost--no point talking to them, they are set in that. Seems so ridiculous to me but anyway...

Doug, My sister attends a word of faith church and like most churches, they are all different from one another.

I attended one for a while and didn't necessarily disagree with anything they taught but felt that they weren't for me. Mainly because they were terribly unorganized and the youth ministry was not good.

At least the one I attended and the one my sister attends don't say that you don't receive the Holy Spirit when you are saved, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is with evidence of speaking in tongues. In other words, every believer receives the Holy Spirit and He lives in them, but the baptism and speaking in tongues is a separate issue. They get that from Acts where the believers said they hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit and then were baptised into Him. That is something that you have to search out for yourself.

I have come to the strong opinion that they is no perfect church and God puts us in different congregations at different times for different reasons. If you feel the youth outreach is good, that is an excellent reason to attend a church. If you have kids, that is so important, that they like to go! If you feel they are teaching extra-biblical doctrine then definately don't go, but you may want to give them a try if you feel led, it could be for a reason.
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info about being "beautiful." There was I trying to be sarcastic, and it has already been done. :-)

I have heard T. D. Jakes is Oneness as well. I have seen him on the God Channel, which is available in Europe, and has a lot of the Faith Teachers on it, like Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, et al. I do not have it, but my Mum does, and so does Gyula. His wife watches it a bit, but a) neither of them speak English very well, and b) they are aware of the WOF distinctives having been in the Faith Church here, and do not agree with them.

On the subject of Oneness Pentecostals. I have seen Websites which call all Pentecostals and Charismatics heretical because they do not believe in the Trinity. The fact is, that UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International) and their offshoots (there seem to be quite a lot of those) are modalist, or Sabellian, as stated above, but they only make up about 10% of Pentecostals and therefore a much smaller proportion of Charismatics in total. Most of the Faith Teachers are not Oneness, as far as I know.

Most Trinitarian Pentecostals consider UPCI to be cultic, not just because of their view of the Godhead. This view came about when in an early Pentecostal group, around 1910 (not long after the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement in the Azusa Street revival), some woman (can't remember the details) had a "revelation" that the name of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is Jesus (by linking Matthew 28: 19 with Acts 2: 38.) They teach that unless someone is baptised by immersion in the name of Jesus (not the Trinity) they cannot be saved. As they are the only ones to do this, this makes them the "One True Church," and of course this claim is one of the marks of a cult. They also teach that someone is not saved unless they speak in tongues.
As with most cults, they are also very legalistic, though most of the rules seems to apply to women. The women are not allowed to wear jewellery or make up. Trousers are not allowed, even when working in the garden, and they must never cut their hair, even just to trim it.
Because of their modalist view of God, their picture of Jesus is also different. Orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus is one person with two natures, divine and human. These things were thrashed out in the Christological debates of the early church, and formulated at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. There was an early church heresy called Nestorianism, that claimed Jesus was two separate persons in one body. UPCI have a similar view, so Jesus' human person was able to pray to his divine person, in himself. How they deal with Jesus' baptism, with Jesus on earth, the Father speaking out of heaven, and the Holy Spirit descending at the same time, I do not know.

Hope that was helpful, and not too long winded.

Adrian
Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. I've known many charismatic believers. They are usually very orthodox in most of their doctrines. However, the UPC, United Pentecostal Church, is definitely not accepted by the mainstream Charismatic groups, nor any Christian body.

Most Pentecostals, Assembly of God members, Foursquare Gospel, etc. are wonderful Christian brothers and sisters. They generally don't make tongues an issue for other believers, accept all the doctrines of orthodox Christianity, and most importantly, are not separatists.

Yeah, and Modalism can't work at all. Especially when the Father, Son and Spirit are all at work as One and communicate with each other, as you have well pointed out.

That is, unless God is schizophrenic or has multiple personality disorder! I guess then God could be talking to Himself all the time, but it would be "word salad," i.e., meaningless.

Not "too long winded" at all, Adrian.

By the way, I occasionally watch the Word of Faith preachers on our "Christian" television station, Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). Praise the Lord for His gift of discernment, which your Mom & Gyula apparently have been blessed with.

Steve
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,
I suppose it depends on the circles one moves in. Most of the Christians I know are Pentecostal or Charismatic, though that does not really include UPC or WOF.
The church I lead belongs to a Pentecostal denomination and I teach theology at their Bible school. My parents were Baptists, and the only area of difference seems to be in certain aspects of Pneumatology. The basic message of the gospel is absolutely the same.
My experience is that some Pentecostals are really dedicated and on fire for God, and some are not. But I suppose you get that in any church.

If anyone is interested in a testimony of someone who left UPC, there is one here:

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/experiences/leaving/duane.html


There are others on the same site, but this is a good one. He seems to have gone through similar struggles to people leaving other cults.

God bless,
Adrian

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