| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
I may have posted this before. If so, please ignore, but this post struck up quite a bit of conversation on another forum. Just would like to get your take on it... "GOOD" WORKS? There is no true believer in Jesus Christ who will deny that a Christian is saved unto righteousness (good works). If you take a poll of Christians at random concerning the nature of good works, the overwhelming majority of answers would probably relate somehow to keeping the Ten Commandments. I was pondering sanctification today when the thought suddenly occurred to me that "keeping the commandments" does not really amount to "good works," but the avoidance of bad ones. Allow me to give you an example: My brother, to this day, says that I owe him my life. My mother came into my bedroom when I was a baby, and found my 5-year-old brother leaning over my bassinet holding a huge rock over my head. Mother gasped and quickly took it away from him. She didn't know whether he was just showing it to me or if he had malice aforethought. That remains unclear until this day. But, my brother claims he saved my life--he did not drop the rock. All of the commandments, except for one, perhaps two, if one stretched it a bit, are written in the negative. They are written not according to what man SHOULD do, but according to what he should NOT do. 1. Man must not have any gods before Jehovah. 2. Man must not worship any idols. 3. Man must not swear. 4. Man must not work on the seventh day.* 6. Man must not murder. 7. Man must not commit adultery. 8. Man must not steal. 9. Man must not lie about his neighbor. 10. Man must not be covetous. The only commandment that requires an exclusively positive behavior (what I will refer to as "good works" from here on) is the fifth--honor your parents. All of the rest are prohibitive. The thought that occurred to me is this: Is merely refraining from prohibited behaviors the same as producing "good works"? If I restrain myself from doing something negative, does this mean I have actively done something positive? The conclusion I have come to is, No; not doing something bad does not mean you have done anything good. This is why Christ redefined the law for Christians as the way we treat our fellow man. He scolded the Pharisees repeatedly for their coldness and religious facade. Remember the Jews were wonderful law-keepers. Jesus said, "Except your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, the greatest law keepers of all time, you will not see the kingdom of heaven." "These things you should have done," He said, "but not have left the other undone." How are our good deeds judged? "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me." Now before you say that Christ made things easier for those who wish to follow Him, let me ask you this: Which is easier to do, to keep from murdering your neighbor (spouse, child, parent, etc.) or to keep from being angry with him? Which is easier to do, to keep from bowing down to an idol or to refrain from screaming at your son when he wrecks your new car? Love, says Paul, is the fulfillment of the law. Loving one's neighbor is much, much harder than keeping the ten little words. And I do not know anyone yet who has been totally successful, because we are told that even pagans love their friends. We are commanded to love our enemies as we love and care for ourselves. So, that leaves us in a predicament as far as producing good works is concerned. Is it sufficient merely to restrain from the prohibited behaviors? I think that Jesus's new commandment of love clearly indicates that this is NOT enough. Jesus makes good works even harder to attain under the New Covenant than it was under the Old. So what are we to do? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Here we have the two aspects of the Gospel: The negative (Negative meaning something is negated, or taken away from the believer)-- Justified by His blood--forgiveness and cleansing from all sin. After which we stand before God as if we had never sinned. But this does not give us the life of good works to which we are called. The positive (That which is added to the believer.)--Saved through His life--All of the perfect obedience, the truly good works manifest in the God-man Christ are imputed to us. Christ's obedience is sufficient for all who believe in Him. And how do we lay claim to this imputed righteousness of Christ. By faith. By believing that in His life, His death, and His resurrection we, the believers, have lived, died and been raised to life eternal. Thanks be to God who has given us the victory in Christ Jesus. In His amazing grace only, Patti "He became sin Who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." * It could be argued that the fourth commandment is stated positively. However, "remembering" the sabbath day is defined further on in the commandment as "In it you will not do any work," making this a commandment of prohibition also. | ||
| Patti |
George, Just wanted to bring your attention to this thread. What do you think of the post above? Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| George |
Patti, There are many interestings things in this post. The thing that sticks out most is that not doing a bad thing does not = doing a good thing. Put all bad things below ground and all good things above groung. While not doing a bad thing is good, it still puts you at ground level only not above. I agree that we in and of ourselves can't save ourselves. Can you tell me where we don"t agree? Got to go back to work----George | ||
| Patti |
George wrote: Can you tell me where we don"t agree? No, I can't! :) God bless! | ||
| Patti |
POCKET-SIZED LAW Whenever one tries to present the Gospel of grace alone to those who insist that our works play a part in our salvation, we are inevitably accused of obliterating the law of God. This has been the cause of much dissension in the church, it was reached its apex during the Reformation, and even today, most church bodies are divided into two main groups: those who claim that man is incapable of offering a life of perfect obedience to God and who try to direct the attention of others to Christ and His finished work for us, and those who say, "Yes, Christ's righteousness covers us, but..." and then they go on to defend what they believe is the law of God and the necessity of believers to obey it. This has caused me to wonder: Who really is demeaning the law of God? Those who say that we cannot render anything pleasing to God in our sinful flesh, or those who say we can and must keep obey the laws of God. Let us consider the statements on both sides--faith ALONE vs. faith plus works (or faith that works, or faith which is activated by love, etc.). 1. Faith alone: Man, in his fallen nature, is not capable of fulfilling the requirements of the law. 2. Faith and works (or faith that works): Man can and must keep the law with the indwelling of Christ. I submit to you that those who believe that God's law is infinite in scope and perfection give more honor to it than those who maintain that fallen humans, even with God's help, can and must keep it. In order to maintain that fallen humans can keep the law, one must miniaturize the law, make it pocket-sized, if you will--something small enough for man to carry around with him--and to miniaturize God Himself, also, to make His law small enough in scope that it possible for man to please Him with his obedience. Jesus, on the other hand, in the Sermon on the Mount, magnified the law, making it much more difficult to keep, because He included our very thoughts and motives. Because everyone who is honest with himself knows deep inside that he is not keeping the law to the perfection required by God, a variety of believer-centered doctrine have had to be invented to give men an "out" to the demands for perfect obedience required of God. Purgatory is one example of such a doctrine. In modern American Christianity, the "out" is a watering down of the demands of the law with a "Santa Claus" kind of God who loves us so much that He will let us slide by into heaven if we try, if we are sincere, or if our motives are good. One that has developed lately is that perfection does not necessarily mean sinlessness, just being "prepared" in Christ. It is significant that the more "legalistic" a belief becomes, the less they do honor to the law of God. Merely the act of humans defining what should and should not be "done" limits the law and God to our perception of Him. So here, again, it seems, we have an optical illusion. When a believer says the law can and must be kept, he limits God and His everlasting law to what sinful man (usually the individual himself) can perceive and produce. It seems to me that, in this case, man is creating God in his sinful image, and not doing honor to the infinity, majesty and glory of the Creator of all the Universe. 1. Faith alone: Christ is our Substitute, both in life and in death. Christ is the sinless Lamb of God who perfectly fulfilled all things God requires. In Him, His only Son, God is well-pleased. 2. Faith and works: Christ is primarily our example to show us how to live. He died for forgiveness of sins, and then lives in our hearts so that our deeds are acceptable to God. We can and must follow the example of Christ so that we can become acceptable to God. The second is good ol' RCism. You will find SDAs scattered all over the spectrum of this second category. Some actually believe that Christ was human just as we are and had to overcome all the weaknesses of fallen human flesh. (I have found in my experience on SDA forums, that more SDAs believe in Christ's fallen human nature than believe that His nature was totally sinless.) Some believe that He was the Son of God, but could have fallen. Some believe that He had to overcome evil thoughts and temptations. They think He showed us what we can do if we allow Him to abide in us. The doing and dying of the historical Christ becomes subverted to the "Christ in me." Looking at first choice and the second, tell me: Which one gives more glory to God and Christ alone? Which view puts man in the more humble position and exalts Christ to the throne of heaven? Not all doctrine are as pious and holy as they sound. It is truly up to the believer to prove all things. And what should be the plumb-line with which the beliver judges all things? Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Worthy is the Lamb. To Him be all glory and majesty forever. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, You said: "I submit to you that those who believe that God's law is infinite in scope and perfection give more honor to it than those who maintain that fallen humans, even with God's help, can and must keep it." What a magnificent truth!!!!! You said: "In order to maintain that fallen humans can keep the law, one must miniaturize the law, make it pocket-sized, if you will--something small enough for man to carry around with him--and to miniaturize God Himself, also, to make His law small enough in scope that it possible for man to please Him with his obedience." Miniturized, pocket sized law, shake, shake, shake! How true! You said: "Jesus, on the other hand, in the Sermon on the Mount, magnified the law, making it much more difficult to keep, because He included our very thoughts and motives." Yeh right, and we can minimize God to our level and have our very thoughts and motives pure! If that were the case, any one of us that reached that point of perfection, there would have been no need for a Savior. I was told the other day that proof that we can attain perfection was that 'Enoch walked with God". I sure wish I could answer these kinds of things like you guyz can as they come up! I really admire all of Y'all's dedication to your study and the way you apply them. That was a totally awesome post!:-) Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Maryann. You are very sweet and very smart! "If that were the case, any one of us that reached that point of perfection, there would have been no need for a Savior." There you go. And the moment we stop sinning (that is, cease being sinners) we have no more need of Christ. Thanks for reassurance. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, Thank you for your great emphasis on righteousness by faith alone. However, you seem to be making a false equation. You wrote, ^^ Faith and works (or faith that works) ^^ This is the same as saying "faith and works" EQUALS "faith that works." But this is not so. "Faith and works" implies that works have some share with faith in securing eternal salvation. By contrast, "faith that works" implies that works are a RESULT of faith. It does not imply that works have some share in securing eternal salvation by faith alone. Blessings to you, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I just went through the book of James at our Trinity Women's Ministry Bible Study last quarter. I'm so amazed at how the New Testament makes real sense when you see it in a historical and cultural context. I'm finally getting a NT education! But the point I want to make is this: James is not a book about law and works. That book always confused me. I learned, finally, that James was the first book written in the New Testament, and it was written approx ten years (give or take a couple) after Jesus ascension. It was written by James, Jesus' half-brother, who was the head of the fledgling church in Jerusalem. The audience for James was the scattered Jewish believers. At Pentecost, when 3,000 were converted in one day, the church was born. Jews from all over the world had attended Passover in Jerusalem, and they had stayed on for the Feast of Pentecost which happened about 10 days later. The amazing miracle? Thousands of observant Jews left Jerusalem as newly converted Christians. They heard Peter preach, and they heard the news of Jesus death and resurrection. Those thousands of new Christians went back to their homes and communities no longer looking for a Messiahóthey were Christians. They had no congregations in which to worship. They were isolated and scattered; they were the beginning of The Church. James wrote to them to encourage them. Paul hadn't been converted yet; these people only had the OT and the news of a risen Messiah. James had to encourage them in their Christian life using words and paradigms that made sense to them. They had only been Christians a few years, and they had no NT to study and no groups of believers to talk with. When James talks about the law, he distinctly refers to the Royal Law of Scripture (James 2:8): "Love your neighbor as yourself." He even calls it "the law that gives freedom." (James 2:12) When he talks about faith and works, he's talking about these Jewish Christians living by faith in Christ, but letting that faith build their trust in God so God can help them live lives of integrity and love. James makes a very big deal about these scattered Christians learning to live with love: don't gossip, take care of the poor, pray for the sick, ask God for wisdom, etc. He's telling them: in your new life of faith and grace, you will reflect God. You must not think that now that Messiah has come you have the "freedom" to do anything your whims tell you to do. You now have to "speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (James 2:12-13) What a very New Testament concept! Mercy triumphs over judgment! When I understood that James was writing to hard-core Jews who had no "blueprint" for how to be Christians, the book suddenly made sense. James isn't saying you have to have faith, and then you have to have works. He's saying, if you have faith, your works will be merciful, and you will fulfill the Royal Law. James, in reality, is a book of graceónot a book of works and law! What a surprise! Colleen | ||
| sherry |
That must've been amazing, Colleen. Thank you for sharing. James is a difficult book to me too. Thank you for that insight that you learned. Now I'll try reading it again with new eyes. | ||
| Pat Darnell |
Do you gentle people have Luther's "Epistle to the Galatians?" In chapter one he says some interesting things. On verse 7: "For, because they mingle the law and the gospel, they must needs be perverters of the gospel. For either Christ must remain, and the law perish, or the law must remain and Christ perish." I know that long posts are not read, usually, so I will encourage you to get this book if you are really struggling to understand "What works does the Lord require?" Jesus gave His disciples a very succinct reply: "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent." This I believe. And I really get upset when folks start on the "cheap Grace" thing. There is no such thing. Grace is grace...it comes only as a gift of God "lest anyone should boast" - and brother! Do we ever boast! On the one hand, grace is cheap - it is free, indeed, it is a GIFT from God. OTOH, grace is the MOST EXPENSIVE gift ever given, and we should hesitate to belittle it. It cost the life of God's pure, holy, undefiled Son...Who, WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, died for us! AMAZING, FREE GRACE! Cheap, indeed! Luther goes on: "The doctrine of grace can by no means stand with the doctrine of law." (He said, as you probably know, that the little book of James was a "book of straw.") "It seems," he continues, "but a light matter to mingle the law and the gospel, faith and works, together; but it does more harm than a man's reason can conceive, for it TAKES AWAY CHRIST WITH ALL HIS BENEFITS and OVERTHROWS THE GOSPEL, as Paul says. The cause of this great evil is our flesh, which being plunged in sins, sees no way how to get out but by works, and therefore it would live in the righteousness of the law, and rest in the confidence of its own works. SO THE FALSE APOSTLES PERVERTED THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST." Luther goes on to say that faith and works must be kept "far asunder". Of COURSE there are behavioural changes in the one who has seen and accepted God's marvelous grace. But they have nothing to do with our salvation. Have you ever asked yourself, What work which I can do will possibly equal the perfect work of Christ? Sometimes I am accused of saying I can do anything I please since I believe I am saved, and that Jesus has accomplished that FOR me, OUTSIDE myself. My response is YES! I can do anything I please! But never overlook the fact that one who is "looking unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith" is going to experience some radical changes - without, sometimes, our awareness. Our "want-tos" definitely change. But if we are looking to ourselves and changes in ourselves, we are no longer "looking unto Jesus"! Luther came out of a religion which has the same soteriology as does our former church: Catholics and SDA view: Faith + Works = Justification Reformation view: Faith = Justification + works. We must be very careful as we deal with our former friends and relatives still in the church that we keep Christ "lifted up" in all our conversations with them. If we begin to insist on "works" and behavioral changes, we've gone full circle, back to rules and regs, just as Ellen White did! We may as well counsel them to buy a trampoline and try to jump high enough to get to heaven! If you have any doubts, please - I beg you - sit down prayerfully and read the Gospel of John, and you will know that when Jesus says "He that believeth in Me" - has eternal life, has everlasting life, shall never die, many, many promises based on believing on Him, that He meant exactly what He said. That means we must believe that He was sent by the Father, that He brought with Him life and light; that He FINISHED the work which God gave Him to do. And that work was to achieve our salvation. We don't want to dis-believe God's Son. "He that has the Son has life; but He who rejects the Son, God's wrath is upon Him..." Why is it so difficult for some of us humans to FREELY accept this FREE Gift God has given us? How could one reject so great salvation? I hope this contributes faith and hope to your discussion... :-) Pat - one who really needed that grace! | ||
| Steve |
Pat, Thanks for your post. Among other things you said, "Sometimes I am accused of saying I can do anything I please since I believe I am saved, and that Jesus has accomplished that FOR me, OUTSIDE myself. My response is YES! I can do anything I please! But never overlook the fact that one who is "looking unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith" is going to experience some radical changes - without, sometimes, our awareness." AMEN! That can be greatly misunderstood. You're right. We can do anything. We mustn't add to that when it comes to salvation. THEN come the changes. We get too hung up on the changes and not on the salvation. Thanks for your insights, Steve | ||
| Cindy |
Pat, Thanks for your post; I agree! I know it sounds dangerous, but I think, like you and Steve have said, we can do as we please! LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL!! and then do as you please... Because we have believed in Jesus' Finished and Perfect work FOR us, God has promised us the Holy Spirit to be with us always!-- to guide us, to convict us of sin, and to comfort us when we are in despair! Blessings to you, Pat! Always a debtor to the Cross, Cindy | ||
| Steve |
Very good Cindy, As you say, God then gives us the Holy Spirit to guide us and convict us of sin. After we're saved, doing as we please may not be doing the same things we did before we were saved (or it may not -- there are some very "holy" unbelievers in this world). But that has nothing to do with our salvation. That's our sanctification. Of course, loving God with all our soul will result in more holy living. But we add to the completed work of Christ if we start confusing sanctification with the salvation that we already have. In Him, Steve | ||
| Patti |
Yes, Steve. You are right. Thank you! | ||
| Patti |
"For the sake of argument let us suppose that you could fulfill the Law in the spirit of the first commandment of God: 'Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart.' It would do you no good. A person simply is not justified by the works of the Law. "The works of the Law, according to Paul, include the whole Law, judicial, ceremonial, moral. Now, if the performance of the moral law cannot justify, how can circumcision justify, when circumcision is part of the ceremonial law? "The demands of the Law may be fulfilled before and after justification. There were many excellent men among the pagans of old, men who never heard of justification. They lived moral lives. But that fact did not justify them. Peter, Paul, all Christians, live up to the Law. But that fact does not justify them. "For I know nothing by myself," says Paul, "yet am I not hereby justified." (I Cor. 4:4.) "The nefarious opinion of the papists, which attributes the merit of grace and the remission of sins to works, must here be emphatically rejected. The papists say that a good work performed before grace has been obtained, is able to secure grace for a person, because it is no more than right that God should reward a good deed. When grace has already been obtained, any good work deserves everlasting life as a due payment and reward for merit. For the first, God is no debtor, they say; but because God is good and just, it is no more than right (they say) that He should reward a good work by granting grace for the service. But when grace has already been obtained, they continue, God is in the position of a debtor, and is in duty bound to reward a good work with the gift of eternal life. This is the wicked teaching of the papacy. "Now, if I could perform any work acceptable to God and deserving of grace, and once having obtained grace my good works would continue to earn for me the right and reward of eternal life, why should I stand in need of the grace of God and the suffering and death of Christ? Christ would be of no benefit to me. Christ's mercy would be of no use to me. "This shows how little insight the pope and the whole of his religious coterie have into spiritual matters, and how little they concern themselves with the spiritual health of their forlorn flocks. They cannot believe that the flesh is unable to think, speak, or do anything except against God. If they could see evil rooted in the nature of man, they would never entertain such silly dreams about man's merit or worthiness. "With Paul we absolutely deny the possibility of self merit. God never yet gave to any person grace and everlasting life as a reward for merit. The opinions of the papists are the intellectual pipe-dreams of idle pates, that serve no other purpose but to draw men away from the true worship of God. The papacy is founded upon hallucinations. "The true way of salvation is this. First, a person must realize that he is a sinner, the kind of a sinner who is congenitally unable to do any good thing. 'Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin. Those who seek to earn the grace of God by their own efforts are trying to please God with sins. They mock God, and provoke His anger. The first step on the way to salvation is to repent. "The second part is this. God sent His only-begotten Son into the world that we may live through His merit. He was crucified and killed for us. By sacrificing His Son for us God revealed Himself to us as a merciful Father who donates remission of sins, righteousness, and life everlasting for Christ's sake. God hands out His gifts freely unto all men. That is the praise and glory of His mercy. "The scholastics explain the way of salvation in this manner. When a person happens to perform a good deed, God accepts it and as a reward for the good deed God pours charity into that person. They call it "charity infused." This charity is supposed to remain in the heart. They get wild when they are told that this quality of the heart cannot justify a person. "They also claim that we are able to love God by our own natural strength, to love God above all things, at least to the extent that we deserve grace. And, say the scholastics, because God is not satisfied with a literal performance of the Law, but expects us to fulfill the Law according to the mind of the Lawgiver, therefore we must obtain from above a quality above nature, a quality which they call "formal righteousness." "We say, faith apprehends Jesus Christ. Christian faith is not an inactive quality in the heart. If it is true faith it will surely take Christ for its object. Christ, apprehended by faith and dwelling in the heart, constitutes Christian righteousness, for which God gives eternal life. "In contrast to the doting dreams of the scholastics, we teach this: First a person must learn to know himself from the Law. With the prophet he will then confess: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.' And, 'there is none that doeth good, no, not one.' And, 'against thee, thee only, have I sinned.' "Having been humbled by the Law, and having been brought to a right estimate of himself, a man will repent. He finds out that he is so depraved, that no strength, no works, no merits of his own will ever deliver him from his guilt. He will then understand the meaning of Paul's words: 'I am sold under sin'; and 'they are all under sin.' "At this state a person begins to lament: 'Who is going to help me?' In due time comes the Word of the Gospel, and says: 'Son, thy sins are forgiven thee. Believe in Jesus Christ who was crucified for your sins. Remember, your sins have been imposed upon Christ.' "In this way are we delivered from sin. In this way are we justified and made heirs of everlasting life. "In order to have faith you must paint a true portrait of Christ. The scholastics caricature Christ into a judge and tormentor. But Christ is no law giver. He is the Lifegiver. He is the Forgiver of sins. You must believe that Christ might have atoned for the sins of the world with one single drop of His blood. Instead, He shed His blood abundantly in order that He might give abundant satisfaction for our sins. "Here let me say, that these three things, faith, Christ, and imputation of righteousness, are to be joined together. Faith takes hold of Christ. God accounts this faith for righteousness. "This imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the Holy Spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, 'that our sins are covered,' and that 'God will not lay them to our charge.' Sin is not held against us for Christ's sake. Where Christ and faith are lacking, there is no remission or covering of sins, but only condemnation. "After we have taught faith in Christ, we teach good works. 'Since you have found Christ by faith,' we say, 'begin now to work and do well. Love God and your neighbor. Call upon God, give thanks unto Him, praise Him, confess Him. These are good works. Let them flow from a cheerful heart, because you have remission of sin in Christ.' "When crosses and afflictions come our way, we bear them patiently. 'For Christ's yoke is easy, and His burden is light.' When sin has been pardoned, and the conscience has been eased of its dreadful load, a Christian can endure all things in Christ. "To give a short definition of a Christian: A Christian is not somebody chalks sin, because of his faith in Christ. This doctrine brings comfort to consciences in serious trouble. When a person is a Christian he is above law and sin. When the Law accuses him, and sin wants to drive the wits out of him, a Christian looks to Christ. A Christian is free. He has no master except Christ. A Christian is greater than the whole world. | ||
| Max |
Patti, it is JUSTIFIED believers who obey Christ's Commandment -- "Thou shalt agape!" -- not UNJUSTIFIED ones. |
